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Post by Rog on Jan 29, 2014 10:39:01 GMT -5
There are some potential positives going into this season:
. Tim Lincecum made significant improvement last season. A similar improvement this year would make him a valuable pitcher again.
. As recently as the middle of August, 2012, Ryan Vogelsong was arguably the most consistent starter in baseball.
. A very consistent Tim Hudson has joined the rotation.
. Buster Posey is coming off a down year and will likely improve.
. Brandon Belt showed he could be a good hitter.
. Marco Scutaro should be healthier.
. Brandon Crawford showed he was a decent hitter to go along with his solid glove.
. Pablo Sandoval might have less body fat than when he came up and was such a great hitter in 2008 and 2009. He has no hamate bones left to break.
. Mike Morse had a very poor 2013 season, but the two previous seasons he hit a combined .297 with 49 homers.
. Angel Pagan should be healthier.
. Heath Hembree should be with the Giants all season.
. The Giants have a sixth starter, Yusmeiro Petit, who has shown he can be capable.
. It's an even year, and the Giants have been pretty good in even-numbered years lately.
. Heath Hembree
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sfgdood
Long time member 
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Jan 30, 2014 0:21:03 GMT -5
Brandon Crawford showed he was a decent hitter to go along with his solid glove.
Dood - a .674 OPS makes someone a decent hitter? Yikes! I also wish his glove was MORE solid than the 33 errors he's produced the last two seasons.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Jan 30, 2014 0:22:35 GMT -5
You sure are high on Hembree. Personally I'd like to see solid proof that his fastball is all the way back before annointing him the savior of the bullpen.
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Post by rxmeister on Jan 30, 2014 7:59:31 GMT -5
Hembree doesn't have to be the savior, he just has to be a solid sixth or seventh inning option. I expect him to gradually work his way into setup or closing, but the Giants have plenty of decent relievers if he doesn't.
I think, however, if you want to judge the Giants offseason on the whole, you would have to say it's a failure. The plan was basically to acquire two starters, a solid everyday left fielder, and to strengthen the bullpen and bench. What they did in order, one starter, a question mark in left, nothing, nothing. I'm not totally blaming Sabean, because he's hampered by the budget, but it will be a season of keeping your fingers crossed that players like Vogey and Morse bounce back, and somehow at least a couple of others have career years..
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Post by klaiggeb on Jan 30, 2014 11:10:10 GMT -5
--Mark Says---Hembree doesn't have to be the savior, he just has to be a solid sixth or seventh inning option. I expect him to gradually work his way into setup or closing, but the Giants have plenty of decent relievers if he doesn't.
I think, however, if you want to judge the Giants offseason on the whole, you would have to say it's a failure. The plan was basically to acquire two starters, a solid everyday left fielder, and to strengthen the bullpen and bench. What they did in order, one starter, a question mark in left, nothing, nothing. I'm not totally blaming Sabean, because he's hampered by the budget, but it will be a season of keeping your fingers crossed that players like Vogey and Morse bounce back, and somehow at least a couple of others have career years..
---boly says---
Pretty much on the button, Mark.
Sabean DID do the best he could, and though I LIKE all of the moves, you're so right! So much is 'finger crossing' on our parts.
As Randy said, and I agree, so much of this season is DEPENDENT upon major rebounds by Lincecum and Vogey.
I'd also add Cain to that list.
And let's be honest; we are desperate for Morse to be healthy and be the hitter he was a couple of years back.
Then there's the issue of health; but then EVERY team has that issue.
boly
---
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Jan 30, 2014 21:17:12 GMT -5
I'm not giving Sabean OR the Giants a pass on the "budget" excuse. They have plenty of money but the ownership would rather divvy it up amongst themselves than try to win another title.
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Post by islandboagie on Jan 31, 2014 11:37:24 GMT -5
They're already paying a lot of money for their core players, Randy. I tried to explain the financial situation of the Dodgers when they were bought by the new group and many of you disagreed that they would still have a ton of money after purchasing a ball club. Perhaps reality has set in now.
The Giants ARE spending a ton of money, but they won't be able to match the Dodgers right now, get used to it. The Dodgers are the Yankees the Giants are the Redsox. The Giants will have to make up that financial difference with hustle and heart.
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Post by Rog on Jan 31, 2014 22:29:24 GMT -5
Rog -- Brandon Crawford showed he was a decent hitter to go along with his solid glove. Dood - a .674 OPS makes someone a decent hitter? Yikes! Rog -- I'm the guy who years ago said Brandon wouldn't hit. And I don't think he has become a good hitter. Probably never will. But a decent one? Yeah. Brandon's .674 OPS was just a shade below the average OPS for a National League shortstop. That average was .680 -- both in the National League and the American. And Brandon put up his numbers while playing in AT&T Park, which the past few seasons has been a notorious pitchers' park. Good hitter? No. Decent hitter? Yeah. IMO. Randy -- I also wish his glove was MORE solid than the 33 errors he's produced the last two seasons. Rog -- Although many Giants fans will argue otherwise, Brandon isn't rated in the top 10 shortstops in Bill James' 2014 Annual. Again, though, he's considered solid, not spectacular. That's what Eric Byrnes said about Brandon early in the 2012 season back when he was making tons of early-season errors. Eric's opinion was based on some scouts he had talked to. My own thought is that some here overrate Brandon's fielding, but that you might underate it. I guess it all balances out.  Solid fielder and decent hitter. That's how I see Brandon. I suspect he's in the top 20 shortstops in the majors. Not great, but not awful. Others may wish to weight in. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2179/positives#ixzz2s2DQGy2S |
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Post by Rog on Jan 31, 2014 22:32:26 GMT -5
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Post by Rog on Jan 31, 2014 22:42:39 GMT -5
Randy -- You sure are high on Hembree. Personally I'd like to see solid proof that his fastball is all the way back before annointing him the savior of the bullpen Rog -- This is where I have a big quibble with you, Randy. How does "Heath Hembree should be with the Giants all season" translate into "annointing him the savior of the bullpen?" If you look at what I've posted about Heath, I believe it includes comments that Heath looked fabulous in his short time with the Giants, but didn't really pitch all that fabulously at Fresno the rest of the year. Heath's Fresno ERA was 4.07, and his WHIP was 1.26. Not all that great for a reliever, and it was in AAA, not the majors. His 10.2 K/9 was very good, as was his 3.94 K/BB ratio. I have also pointed out that he is ranked about #7 or #8 among Giants' prospects. I expect Heath to perform well, but I certainly don't expect him to be the "savior of the bullpen." Where did you get that idea? Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2179/positives?page=1#scrollTo=18655#ixzz2s2PLNtWQ |
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Post by Rog on Jan 31, 2014 22:44:57 GMT -5
By the way, I did say that several Giants' being ranked ahead of Heath on the prospect list was a good thing for the Giants. It appears that as usual, the Giants have very nice pitching prospects but very little in the way of position players. Their farm system isn't ranked all that highly, and I think this year will provide a real test -- especially for the young starting pitchers.
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Post by Rog on Jan 31, 2014 23:00:36 GMT -5
Randy -- I think, however, if you want to judge the Giants offseason on the whole, you would have to say it's a failure. The plan was basically to acquire two starters, a solid everyday left fielder, and to strengthen the bullpen and bench. Rog -- One could view the off-season as a failure. Certainly the Giants didn't ADD much in the way of players. Tim Hudson and particularly Mike Morse have questions attached to them. But the Giants did keep key players in Hunter Pence and Tim Lincecum, as well as important pieces in Javier Lopez and Ryan Vogelsong. The cost of free agents was predictably high. Teams except for the Dodgers and Yankees were somewhat limited in what they could accomplish. The Giants' acquisition of Hudson is considered by many to be a bargain, and at least Morse at 1/$6 seems a prudent gamble. Lincecum at 2/$35 and Pence at 5/$90 don't seem quite as high as when the Giants signed them. The Giants are keeping their core intact, as well as many of their corps. If they re-sign Pablo Sandoval and lock up Brandon Belt, they will be building in a healthy salary increase for 2015 too. If the health and performance question marks are answered positively, we'll be satisfied with the off-season. If they don't, we won't. I would have liked to see them do more, but they're at the point where their top players are becoming quite expensive. As much as we would love it, their budget isn't unlimited. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2179/positives?page=1#scrollTo=18657#ixzz2s2SWpbp5 |
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Feb 1, 2014 0:03:04 GMT -5
Randy -- You sure are high on Hembree. Personally I'd like to see solid proof that his fastball is all the way back before annointing him the savior of the bullpen
Rog -- This is where I have a big quibble with you, Randy. How does "Heath Hembree should be with the Giants all season" translate into "annointing him the savior of the bullpen?"
Dood - it doesn't...but using a whole second bullet point with just his name sort of implies it, don't you think?
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Feb 1, 2014 0:06:09 GMT -5
Randy -- I'm not giving Sabean OR the Giants a pass on the "budget" excuse. They have plenty of money but the ownership would rather divvy it up amongst themselves than try to win another title.
Rog -- Next time you see the Giants' financial statements, could you call me so I can see them too? I feel really left out this time.
Dood - they only make it available to non-stats geeks
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Feb 1, 2014 0:27:45 GMT -5
I would have liked to see them do more, but they're at the point where their top players are becoming quite expensive. As much as we would love it, their budget isn't unlimited.
Dood - this is an excuse. Of course the budget has limits. Every budget does. But if you want to consistently eat at the big boy table, you need to pony up like the big boys do. Without shelling out the coin, the Giants will eventually revert back to what they were before the titles...a nice little team that works hard and wins 83-89 games a year, sometimes making the postseason, and getting eliminated in the first round when they do make it. Basically they will become a slightly wealthier version of the Rays...never doing much more than sniffing the back end of the big spending Dodgers every year.
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Post by Rog on Feb 1, 2014 3:49:01 GMT -5
Boly -- Sabean DID do the best he could, and though I LIKE all of the moves, you're so right! So much is 'finger crossing' on our parts. Rog -- We were happy with the 2010 team, right? They not only won the World Series, they never trailed in games in any of their three playoff series. So let's see how much "finger crossing" was involved the off-season before: . Barry Zito would have been a question mark as the Giants' fifth starter -- except that he actually entered the season as their fourth starter. Todd Wellemeyer was their fifth starter. . Their new first baseman, a tall guy named Aubrey Huff, was coming off a season in which his OPS was only .694. The Giants had picked him up off the scrap heap for 1/$3 million. . Their second baseman, Freddy Sanchez, had suffered significant health problems since joining the team in a deadline trade in 2009. He had been able to play only 25 games, posting a .613 OPS. He would play only 111 games in 2010. . Their shortstop, Edgar Renteria, had limited range and was coming off a .635 OPS. He would play only 72 games in 2010. . Their left fielder was Mark DeRosa, coming off a serious wrist injury. DeRosa would play only 26 games and post a .537 OPS. . Their center fielder was Aaron Rowand. Need we say more? . Their right fielder was Nate Schierholtz, who would receive only 252 plate appearances and post a .692 OPS. . Their bullpen was so bad they had to trade for not one but two relievers at the trade deadline. We had not only our fingers crossed, but our arms and legs as well. The payroll was less than $100 million. Now we're complaining because it's merely a few million over $150 mill. Let's get some perspective back into our thinking. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2179/positives?page=1#scrollTo=18658#ixzz2s3YQpjKY |
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Feb 2, 2014 22:57:16 GMT -5
Boly -- Sabean DID do the best he could, and though I LIKE all of the moves, you're so right! So much is 'finger crossing' on our parts.
Rog -- We were happy with the 2010 team, right? They not only won the World Series, they never trailed in games in any of their three playoff series.
Dood - Gee, that sounds pretty dominant...but why are you now suddenly so impressed with something that was pure luck?
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Post by rxmeister on Feb 3, 2014 9:05:26 GMT -5
The Giants policy of locking up their own and being conservative on the FA market has won two world championships. The team you're negatively comparing them to has won nothing since 1988. If they buy their way to multiple championships in the next few years I might start to bitch, but right now the Giants way of doing things is being proved far superior. Which of the players the Giants locked up has been a failure thus far and the Giants are looking to unload? Nobody. Meanwhile the Dodgers spent their offseason trying to unload Ethier and Kemp. We're much better run and like I said, I won't complain until there are parades in LA.
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Post by Rog on Feb 3, 2014 23:02:05 GMT -5
Randy -- You sure are high on Hembree. Personally I'd like to see solid proof that his fastball is all the way back before annointing him the savior of the bullpen Rog -- This is where I have a big quibble with you, Randy. How does "Heath Hembree should be with the Giants all season" translate into "annointing him the savior of the bullpen?" Dood - it doesn't...but using a whole second bullet point with just his name sort of implies it, don't you think? Rog -- I wondered what you were talking about -- and then I saw the second mention of Heath, which was entirely inadvertent. You're simply seeing what you want to here, Randy. You didn't notice that in addition to having a name, every other bullet point had a predicate and a period? You didn't have a clue that it was inadvertent, Randy? Really? This is far from the first time you have seen what you want to see. If you see something that looks out of the ordinary, why not ASK, rather than assume? Just try to be a decent guy about it, Randy, and everything should work out pretty well. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2179/positives#ixzz2sK2YF4SA |
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Post by Rog on Feb 3, 2014 23:05:59 GMT -5
Mark -- Meanwhile the Dodgers spent their offseason trying to unload Ethier and Kemp. Rog -- One thing that is worthy of mention though is that the Dodgers have four outfielders who have been All-Stars or in the case of Yasiel Puig, one who was better last season than any of the three All-Stars. The guy I think I would most want to get rid of if I were the Dodgers would be Carl Crawford. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2179/positives?page=1#scrollTo=18679#ixzz2sK4IGVCT |
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Post by Rog on Feb 3, 2014 23:09:48 GMT -5
Boly -- Sabean DID do the best he could, and though I LIKE all of the moves, you're so right! So much is 'finger crossing' on our parts. Rog -- We were happy with the 2010 team, right? They not only won the World Series, they never trailed in games in any of their three playoff series. Dood - Gee, that sounds pretty dominant... Rog -- No, it sounds like we were happy with the 2010 team. The rest of the comment was a statement of fact, but not one that necessarily implied dominance. Randy -- but why are you now suddenly so impressed with something that was pure luck? Rog -- No one said it was PURE luck. Luck did play a big part in the Braves series though. You could look it up. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2179/positives?page=1#scrollTo=18680#ixzz2sK5Eb1FI |
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Post by Rog on Feb 3, 2014 23:11:55 GMT -5
The point was that we were quite happy with the 2010 team, and entering the 2010 season, they had at least as many question marks as this year's team.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Feb 4, 2014 0:05:01 GMT -5
Rog -- I wondered what you were talking about -- and then I saw the second mention of Heath, which was entirely inadvertent.
Dood - thanks for the clarification. The next time--probably sometime soon--you post something idiotic, I'll just ignore it as being "inadvertant"
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Feb 4, 2014 0:09:00 GMT -5
The Giants policy of locking up their own and being conservative on the FA market has won two world championships. The team you're negatively comparing them to has won nothing since 1988.
Dood - two very true observations, Rx...the problem is there are new owners and management in charge in LA now and they aren't incompetent boobs like the former regime. We can NOT do the same things and expect the same results again.
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Post by rxmeister on Feb 4, 2014 10:02:58 GMT -5
You could be right, Dood, but we won the World Series in the first year of that new Dodger ownership, and neither won in the second year, although I'll concede they certainly did better than we did. I'll wait a year or two before I panic though, and it looks like Baer and company feel the same way. Maybe a Dodger world championship will force the Giants to change the way they do things, as much as we would hate to see that happen.
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Post by klaiggeb on Feb 4, 2014 11:11:22 GMT -5
--Randy Says--- Dood - two very true observations, Rx...the problem is there are new owners and management in charge in LA now and they aren't incompetent boobs like the former regime. We can NOT do the same things and expect the same results again.
---boly says---
I totally agree with Randy here.
They aren't incompetent boobs and IF we wait to 'see what happens,' it'll be too late.
It's not a case of panic, it's a case of watching reality unfold before our faces.
I love what Sabean has done, with locking up our players.
But we MUST, absolutely MUST start signing some players/hitters for the farm system, not just pitching.
boly
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Post by Rog on Feb 4, 2014 12:38:57 GMT -5
--Randy Says--- Dood - two very true observations, Rx...the problem is there are new owners and management in charge in LA now and they aren't incompetent boobs like the former regime. We can NOT do the same things and expect the same results again. ---boly says--- I totally agree with Randy here. They aren't incompetent boobs and IF we wait to 'see what happens,' it'll be too late. Rog -- The Giants aren't waiting. They re-signed four important potential free agents, signed two more from outside, and hopefully are getting ready to lock up Brandon Belt and Pablo Sandoval. Here is what they HAVE done in the past two years or so: . Locked up Matt Cain through 2018. . Locked up Madison Bumgarner through 2019. . Locked up Buster Posey through 2022. . Locked up Hunter Pence through 2018. . Locked up Angel Pagan through 2016. . Signed Marco Scutaro for three years. . Re-signed Santiago Casilla for three years. . Re-signed Jeremy Affelt for three years. . Re-signed Tim Lincecum for two years. . Re-signed Sergio Romo for two years. . Re-signed Ryan Vogelsong for one year. . Signed Mike Morse for one year. . Retained all important arbitration-eligible players. In the process, they retained most of their 2012 World Championship team and locked up most of the key players for three years or more. I wouldn't call that a case of sitting on their hands. Boly -- It's not a case of panic, it's a case of watching reality unfold before our faces. I love what Sabean has done, with locking up our players. But we MUST, absolutely MUST start signing some players/hitters for the farm system, not just pitching. Rog -- You make a good point, although I think the key factor is signing GOOD players for the farm system, whether position players or pitchers. Yes, the Giants don't have many good hitting prospects in the minors, and the DO have a hard time attracting free agent hitters. But if the minor league pitchers are good enough, they will help to retool the rotation, fill some important bullen spots, keep payroll down, and allow the Giants to trade for everyday players. I see a big key right now as being how the many young pitching prospects develop. By many, I mean close to 10. Not all young arms develop, and by not many, I mean most. But with a little luck, the current crop of young Giants pitchers (and don't forget that Madison Bumgarner is only 24) could help forge a strong future. Especially if combined with Buster Posey, Brandon Belt, Pablo Sandoval and Brandon Crawford among the position players. All these "prospects" are below 30. Even Cain and Lincecum. One thing to remember as well. The Giants' first two picks in this past draft were position players. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2179/positives#ixzz2sNFMVNPC |
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Post by klaiggeb on Feb 4, 2014 13:05:01 GMT -5
---Rog says--- Rog -- The Giants aren't waiting. They re-signed four important potential free agents, signed two more from outside, and hopefully are getting ready to lock up Brandon Belt and Pablo Sandoval.
---boly says---
Rog, you're misinterpreting what Randy and I said.
In my post, I agreed, that locking up our guys was a good thing.
But Randy and I are also saying that the way things are going, NOT being a major player in FA IS going to be a problem.
And the Giants, since Zito, have been reluctant to BE major FA players.
boly
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Post by islandboagie on Feb 4, 2014 14:35:54 GMT -5
And the Giants, since Zito, have been reluctant to BE major FA players.
Boagie- And that strategy has won them 2 World Championships. If they had been more active in the FA market they may have lost some of their home grown talent.
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Post by Rog on Feb 4, 2014 16:19:41 GMT -5
Boly -- Rog, you're misinterpreting what Randy and I said. In my post, I agreed, that locking up our guys was a good thing. Rog -- You did, and I didn't mean to overlook your comment. The point I was making is that what the Gians already HAVE accomplished quite a bit -- and committed a lot of money in doing so. They haven't exactly been cheap. Boly -- But Randy and I are also saying that the way things are going, NOT being a major player in FA IS going to be a problem. Rog -- When there is a free agent, in theory each team has a 3% chance of landing that free agent. Still, we seem to be unhappy if they don't snag the BIGGEST free agents, even though there are multiple needs to address. One problem a strong team faces is simply retaining its OWN free agents. The Giants did a nice job of doing so this off-season, spending about $45 million this season in doing so. In addition, they picked up one of the most accomplished free agent starters on the market and added a player who in 2011 hit .300 with 30 home runs. Do I wish they had done more? You bet. But by spending $65 million or so this season in addition to providing raises to their arbitration-eligible and already signed players, it isn't as if they were holding their hands over their pockets. I guess where we disagree isn't on whether we would like to see them do more, but rather on the practicality of their doing so. Why criticize the lack of something when in fact it was reasonably significant to begin with and the uncertainty of doing more is unknown from a financial standpoint. To the best of my knowledge, the Giants have yet to apply for non-profit status. Boly -- And the Giants, since Zito, have been reluctant to BE major FA players. Rog -- Overall, I agree with you. Perhaps they were busy paying for the huge pay increases to Angel Pagan, Tim Lincecum, Matt Cain and Buster Posey. The good news is that this off-season they signed or re-signed three players who were likely among the top 50 free potential or actual free agents. And they spent about $47 million per season in doing so. Let me ask you this: How many teams this off-season have spent close to $60 million per season on free agent eligibles? It's not as if Giants sat on their hands. Perhaps we should be giving them less criticism for what they HAVEN'T done and more credit for what they have? The Giants will be paying nearly half as much this season to potential and actual free agents as they spent on their entire team in 2013. If we include the free agents they re-signed a year ago, we're talking about 60%. To say the Giants have been cheap isn't correct. To say we'd like more is natural. To say that is practical isn't within our knowledge base. Do we honesty think the Giants don't WISH they were able to spend more and put an even better team on the field? Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2179/positives#ixzz2sO5gvXCK |
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