|
Post by Rog on Jan 8, 2014 19:20:44 GMT -5
Three made the Hall. Many others (including J.T. Snow!) didn't. Which player or players who didn't make it most deserved to get in?
Of the three who made it, in what order would you have voted for them?
|
|
|
Post by allenreed on Jan 8, 2014 20:54:06 GMT -5
Maddux. Glavine. Thomas. I think Raines got shafted. Biggio a little, but he'll make it eventually. I was a little disappointed in Kent's result, but there wer alot of good players on the ballot. It'll be tough again next year. Randy Johnson, Pedro, Smoltz. Biggio may make it next year.
|
|
|
Post by Rog on Jan 9, 2014 0:58:56 GMT -5
Greg Maddux is one of the very best pitchers in history. Frank Thomas is one of the best hitters in baseball history. Tom Glavine was outstanding but not IMO in the class of the other two. Thomas gets demerits for being a poor fielder and base runner.
But there was a time when he was probably the best hitter in the game, and by a fair amount.
A year from now, Johnson and Martinez should be slam dunks. Smoltz will likely make it, or at least come close. I would think Biggio would garner the extra vote or two he needs.
The one possibly fly in the ointment the next several years is if the attitudes against the steroid guys soften, further splitting the vote.
With regard to this year and next, Maddux, Johnson and Martinez are three of the very best pitchers ever (each likely top 10). Has there ever been more pitching talent inducted over two years since the first two years of the voting?
Throw in Glavine and perhaps Smoltz, and the Hall will receive quite a bonanza in the pitching are. Martinez has the highest ERA+ (154) of any starting pitcher in history (behind only Mariano Rivera among pitchers with over 100 innings), while Johnson at 135 and Maddux at 132 are also in the top 30. I'm not sure there have ever been three pitchers with nearly corresponding peaks who have been so good.
|
|
|
Post by allenreed on Jan 9, 2014 2:03:42 GMT -5
I guess I didn't consider Thomas a complete player, but actually he missed as much time due to injury as to the fact that he couldn't field. Glavine and Thomas are pretty close. Both just a notch below the best. I just can't figure the Raines slight. According to Brian Kenny his stats compare favorably to Gwynn and way favorably to Lou Brock.
|
|
sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
|
Post by sfgdood on Jan 9, 2014 3:43:32 GMT -5
I think who gets shafted every year with the piety of the voters is the fans. The writers treat the HOF as if it were their personal popularity contest. No matter how big of assholes they may have been, niether Bonds nor Clemens were ever disciplined by MLB for breaking the PED rules and for the voters to come across as the "moral arbitors" for such things is absurd. As I have said, there are plenty of lesser players in Cooperstown who cheated blatantly--if you want to call it cheating--by loading up baseballs with vaseline or emory boards on the mound and using currently banned substances (FYI, most of Bonds' damage was done BEFORE steroids and HGH were put on the banned list). We can have a debate about which substances are more helpful but what can't be disputed is that prior to 2006, no set policy was in place to ban PEDs. So in the eyes of MLB, all those evil substances cooked up at BALCO, Biogenesis and other labs were as legal as caffeine before then.
Bottom line is this. MLB loved and celebrated the accomplishments of these players when they were accomplished and they should have because the accomplishments are and were remarkable. The voters are basically punishing these great players because MLB itself either was too naive to stop the PED use or because the powers that be just didn't care enough to do so because of the excitement it created. To ban these players' entry into Cooperstown is similar to convicting someone for an act that was legal when committed and later was made into a crime. The voters shouldnt deny fans the opportunity to decide for themselves how certain players should or shouldnt be remembered...because the reality is, if they don't get enshrined, the players will eventually be forgotten and that would be tragic on many levels. There could be a kid with his dad at Cooperstown in 2040 that walks around looking for the All Time HR leader and won't be able to find him there and, worse, not even know why.
Did they make mistakes? Yes. So did Shoeless Joe Jackson but I think we can all agree that he didn't deserve the punishment he got and the ones that paid the worst price were the fans that were deprived of seeing him play for however many years he had left. If voters continue to be this self-righteous, I will have to cross Cooperstown off my personal bucket list.
|
|
|
Post by rxmeister on Jan 9, 2014 7:58:52 GMT -5
Here here! Except for the Shoeless Joe part. He agreed to throw baseball games so he deserved what he got, even though he did perform well in that series anyway. Don't know if it will happen this year or in the near future, but mark my words that at least one of these guys that gets elected will be found out to be dirty later, and the HOF will look stupid for having a "roider" in there when other better players are excluded. These writers that vote have no right to judge. A bunch of holier than thou idiots, many of whom have done far worse than any of these players have. The all star game is now a fan vote, why not the HOF?
|
|
|
Post by klaiggeb on Jan 9, 2014 10:01:09 GMT -5
Rog says-- Frank Thomas is one of the best hitters in baseball history.
---boly says---
Rog, are you serious?
Yes, he has some very good numbers, but one of the best?
Maybe I'm just arguing semantics, but I can name about 20 hitters who were better than Frank, and not by a little bit
boly
|
|
|
Post by Rog on Jan 9, 2014 11:03:38 GMT -5
Boly -- I can name about 20 hitters who were better than Frank, and not by a little bit Rog -- I know what you're saying here, Boly, but Frank had a 7-year peak in which his WORST numbers were .308/.426/.536/.962. Orlando Cepeda was a pretty decent hitter himself (in the top 100?), and he had an OPS as high as .962 only once in his career. (Part of that was the difference in eras.) I'll write more later, but Frank hit for average and power, and he didn't make many outs. He couldn't field or run, yet he won two MVP's, finished 2nd, finished 3rd twice and finished 4th. Incredibly, his 4th-place finish came at the age of 38. More later. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2165/which-player-got-shafted?page=1#scrollTo=18292#ixzz2puw4hkKO
|
|
|
Post by allenreed on Jan 9, 2014 11:45:19 GMT -5
How may of those 20 are already in the HOF?
|
|
|
Post by allenreed on Jan 9, 2014 12:10:22 GMT -5
Can't agree Randy. The numbers of the roid boys are distorted and attained by artificial means. You can't assess how good they really were and what their real numbers would have been. Again, does Sosa hit 60+ HRs three times without steroids? Does Bonds get better in his late 30s without them? Does McGwire hit 70 without them? No, no, and no. No set policy? You're kidding, right? You think these guys didn't know that they were cheating? Why not be open about it then? Why all the subtrefuge? Also, these substances were illegal under the law, if not banned by baseball. Would it have been ok if they were using heroin?
These players aren't convicted of anything. Well, Bonds was. They're not in jail, haven't paid any fines. They sold out for the money, which they were paid. The players put the voters in a position where their true abilities were impossible to assess and their true numbers were distorted. If you want to bring Shoeless Joe into the argument, let's remember that Jackson had his livelihood taken away from him in the prime of his career. That hasn't happened to any of the roid boys. If the fans should decide for themselves, why did they ever start the HOF? That kid in 2040? Aaron's plaque will still be there. Better that he know about the legitimate HR king, rather than some guy who's numbers were distorted because he artificially altered his body. If he wants to know about Bonds, the information will be there, just as the information is now there about Jackson and Rose. Jackson hasn't played for over 90 years. You're still talking about him. Obviously he's not forgotten. Cross the Hall off your list? That's your loss. Great place, beautiful town. Lots of fun.
|
|
|
Post by allenreed on Jan 9, 2014 12:14:04 GMT -5
Mark. Do you think iof a nationwide poll were taken, that Bonds would be voted in? He's hardly universally loved. I'd say that most baseball fans are delighted that Bonds isn't in the Hall.
|
|
sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
|
Post by sfgdood on Jan 9, 2014 13:29:29 GMT -5
Yeah we're not going to agree on this one, Allen. It shouldn't be on the voters to decide which players were helped and by how much. How can they? How can anyone for that matter? Especially when there are just as many of the Armando Rioses and Benito Santiagos who juiced and yet didn't get the huge spike in power. It's not a guarantee to success, you have to have the talent to begin with.
In the case of Bonds it is absolutely absurd because A) he had a HOF worthy career before he became involved with BALCO and B) even after BALCO, he never had a dirty drug test. Basically he's being shut out for being an asshole, which is just wrong. If a player put up the numbers while playing under the rules in place at the time, he should be in the hall, no matter how much of a jerk he may have been or still is. I mean by the time baseball implemented their drug policy, Bonds had hit over 600 bombs already. It's not Bonds' fault MLB was slow to act but he's being cast as the villain...unfairly IMO.
There are HOFers who loaded up on currently banned substances and loaded up baseballs on the mound but nobody's crying about that because the media loves them. I mean Gaylord Perry is famous for it but the voters just smile and laugh and wink knowingly. How hypocritical of them is it to now castigate Bonds and Clemens while patting Gaylord on the back? It's a joke. The media has too much power here and have become drunk with it. I don't know if I will go as far as Rx and say the fans should vote but there has to be better checks and balances.
|
|
|
Post by klaiggeb on Jan 9, 2014 13:34:13 GMT -5
--Randy Says---The media has too much power here and have become drunk with it.
---boly says---
Randy, I couldn't agree more.
In fact, THAT was the topic on Dan Patrick's show this morning on the radio.
Tooooo many voters (Sports writers), many of whom have NOT even been following the game for years.
Personally, I don't EVER want the fans to have a voice, but I WOULD support guys like Bob Costas, and others of his ilk who actually FOLLOW the game, and follow it closely.
boly
|
|
|
Post by allenreed on Jan 9, 2014 13:44:35 GMT -5
Bonds' talent is considerable, but he doesn't break Maris' record, or Aaron's record without roids. Not even close. Do you really have any doubt that Bonds used steroids? Seriously? Yes. Everyone's head grows three sizes in their late thirties.
Bonds isn't the only one, so how is he cast as the villian. He cheated. Commited a fraud on the paying fans, actually. Now it's time to pay. I can't say I'm unhappy about it. I felt cheated and ripped off by the Giants for putting Bonds on the field while knowing what he was up to.
|
|
sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
|
Post by sfgdood on Jan 9, 2014 13:47:09 GMT -5
oh and just one more note on the original topic...in MY world, guys like JT Snow and Omar Vizquel would have just as much of a chance to go just on their defense. That part of the game is undercelebrated by Cooperstown. You might even say it is UNcelebrated.
|
|
sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
|
Post by sfgdood on Jan 9, 2014 13:55:45 GMT -5
Of course I'm not saying Barry didn't use. Only a fool would say that. I'm saying most of his damage was done before MLB enacted their policy against PEDs. Therefore most of his numbers were put up according to the rules in place. Just like those HOFers who popped greenies before they got banned. Barry got an unfair edge, maybe, but it wasn't cheating because he was playing by the rules in place. You can be mad at MLB for being slow to act but Bonds was playing by the rules they set forth.
|
|
sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
|
Post by sfgdood on Jan 9, 2014 14:24:35 GMT -5
Bonds' talent is considerable, but he doesn't break Maris' record, or Aaron's record without roids. Not even close.
Dood - if you want to go down that path, does Maris hit 60 or Aaron 714 without the use of a now-banned substance, greenies? I don't know. What I do know is greenies were not banned when those guys played, just as steroids and HGH were not banned for most of Bonds' career. The single season mark certainly was obtained according to the rules of MLB in 2001. Aaron's career mark is a debatable point.
|
|
|
Post by allenreed on Jan 9, 2014 16:29:41 GMT -5
Again, greenies aren't going to double your home run output, if it increases it at all. I've never heard any hard evidence that Aaron used greenies, never heard that Maris was even suspected of it. Again, if the substances weren't banned, why all the secrecy? Why didn't Bonds and his ilk just come out and admit they were juicing? These guys all went to great lengths to hid what they were doing. They knew it was cheating. One groups who's feelings haven't been spoken of here is the players that are in the Hall. They don't want any of the roid boys anywhere near there, and I don't blame them. Why would you want your name and one of your greatest accomplishments sullied by the association of it with cheaters?
|
|
|
Post by Rog on Jan 9, 2014 17:35:38 GMT -5
A lot of things have come up here.
Should the steroid guys be voted in? Allen says no way, Jose (Canseco, one would presume). Others say the guys who used steroids before they were outlawed by baseball should be OK, but not the ones who used them after they were banned by the game.
Some say those who were convicted of steroid usage shouldn't get in. Some say everyone convicted or caught should be banned. Others say even those who are suspected of steroid use should be kept out.
Some say steroids were illegal before they were banned, so even usage prior to baseball's action should be grounds to be kept out. Others point out that greenies were also illegal when many players used them.
Some say that greenies didn't give the advantage steroids did. Others say that if one is going to banish the steroid users who used before they were banned by baseball shouldn't under the same logic have allowed in the greenie users, who didn't gain the same level of advantage but still broke the law and gained at least some advantage by doing so.
Some say steroid use was (and is) cheating. Others say so was the spitball after it was banned.
Some point to the moral and ethics clause in the voting rules. Others point out that in most cases they have been ignored and that there are worse criminals already in the Hall than might be allowed if the steroid boys got in.
Some say the fans should do the voting, since they already vote for the All-Stars. Others say that the All-Star game is a temporary phenomenon, while being elected to the Hall is essentially forever.
Some say with all the excellent candidates available for election now and the near future, voters should be allowed to vote for more than 10. Others say the 75% requirement should be reduced a bit. Still others say that the Hall is already too diluted.
Some say that no matter how good a player is, they won't vote for him the first time around. Other ask, is the guy a Hall of Famer or not? Does he magically become a better candidate at some point in the future?
Some say many of the voters are too far removed from the game. Others point to a better balance of visible characteristics and analytical methods than ever before.
I guess if nothing else, it makes for intriguing discussion.
|
|
|
Post by donk33 on Jan 9, 2014 17:47:50 GMT -5
Again, greenies aren't going to double your home run output, if it increases it at all. I've never heard any hard evidence that Aaron used greenies, never heard that Maris was even suspected of it. Again, if the substances weren't banned, why all the secrecy? Why didn't Bonds and his ilk just come out and admit they were juicing? These guys all went to great lengths to hid what they were doing. They knew it was cheating. One groups who's feelings haven't been spoken of here is the players that are in the Hall. They don't want any of the roid boys anywhere near there, and I don't blame them. Why would you want your name and one of your greatest accomplishments sullied by the association of it with cheaters? dk..Aaron has said he used greenies, just as I did...and I couldn't hit a lick....
|
|
|
Post by rxmeister on Jan 9, 2014 18:24:47 GMT -5
I absolutely disagree about greenies, Allen. How do they not help you hit home runs? If you're more alert, you don't think you hit better? If you're not tired, you don't think you hit better? Why did they ban them then? They're absolutely performance enhancing and gave players that used an unfair advantage as well.
|
|
|
Post by allenreed on Jan 9, 2014 18:25:36 GMT -5
Did the greenies help? Did you suddenly become an awesome power hitter. Did it double your homer total from one to two.
|
|
|
Post by allenreed on Jan 9, 2014 18:58:58 GMT -5
I don't think being overly alert would help you hit with more power. Certainly not to the degree roids helped guys like Sosa and Bonds. To get that late career power boom Bonds got with roids, I guess you'd have to take barrels full of greenies, if they worked that way, which they don't. Greenies might help you perk up a bit when you're tired, like a few cups of coffee, but it isn't going to transform your body as roids transformed Barry's. Certainly you can understand that, Mark. As a pharmacist, I'm guessing you would know why they were banned more than I. Why do they ban most amphetamines? They're highly addictive. It shoots your nervous system to hell, affects your appetite, gives you huge mood swings, affects your sleep etc. I've never really heard of speed making anyone bigger or stronger though, often just the opposite. People don't take speed to bulk up. I think you're looking for an out for Barry here, but I don't think this is it. The percentages for these guys went down this year, with Palmiero even dropping off the ballot with less than 5%. It was a crowded ballot this year, and will be again next year. I'm not seeing anything changing that's really going to help these guys. God knows they're not going to get many sympathy votes, especially not Barry. What's sad about this is Barry's stupidity. He didn't need to take steroids. He was already one of the most talented players ever to pick up a bat. The HOF was already guaranteed. He already had it all, but that wasn't enough. I can see a guy who uses to survive in the game. I don't condone it, but I can see it. People like Bonds and Clemens. They're just incredibly greedy and incredibly stupid. Sheffield comes up next year. He's been tainted by suspicion as well. Wonder how it will go for him.
|
|
|
Post by allenreed on Jan 9, 2014 19:17:45 GMT -5
Randy made a comment earlier about defensive players getting in. What about Keith Hernandez? Best defensive first baseman who ever lived, and also a pretty fair hitter.
|
|
|
Post by Rog on Jan 9, 2014 19:41:55 GMT -5
Getting back to Frank Thomas, over an eight-year period, his LOWEST OPS+ was 174. Not commenting that Frank was a better hitter than Willie Mays, but Willie hit the 174 mark four times in his 22-year career.
If Frank had stayed healthy and not walked so darn much (That's a horrible thing for a batter to do, right?), he would have likely reached 3000 hits and 600 homers. Was there a better hitter over the 1990's than Frank? I don't think even Barry Bonds was as good. Ken Griffey was close.
Frank hit a homer every 15.6 at bats in his career. Not many have done that.
Here's an extremely important one IMO. Frank accumulated more bases (total bases + walks + hbp) than he made outs (at bats - hits + double plays). I'm going to guess that not many other players aside from Ruth, Wiliams, Gehrig, Mantle and Bonds are in that category.
Numbers may not tell the total story, but Frank's are too intimidating not for him to have been one of the best hitters of all time. This is a very rough calculation, but a team gets 27 outs per game. On average, it will score one run for every four bases it accumulates. Frank made more than a base per out. 28 bases for every 27 outs, to be precise. That means a team of 9 Frank Thomas's would score somewhere in the range of 7 runs per game (conservatively).
A hitter who is worth well over half again as many runs as a team usually scores is truly a great hitter. We can argue about how much other factors mean, but it's tough to argue against a 7 runs per 27 outs guy.
|
|
|
Post by islandboagie on Jan 9, 2014 20:00:47 GMT -5
Allen- Obviously he's not forgotten. Cross the Hall off your list? That's your loss. Great place, beautiful town. Lots of fun.
Boagie- You inadvertently proved the opposing point. As you say, the Hall of Fame is a place. I agree, it's a museum filled with baseball history and whether you like him or not, Barry Bonds belongs there. Without him, the fans aren't seeing the full story of history. I feel the same about shoeless Joe Jackson and Pete Rose.
|
|
|
Post by rxmeister on Jan 9, 2014 20:56:32 GMT -5
I recommend highly going to the baseball HOF at least once in your lifetime. I know it's easier for me living in NYC to go there than you west coast guys, but it's an amazing place. Not just the HOF but the whole town of Cooperstown. It's completely dedicated to having the Hall. Every store is baseball themed, and the city is so quaint and old fashioned, you'll think you went back in time to the nineteen fifties. For someone who lives in the city that never sleeps, going to that small town was an experience I'll never forget. And I haven't even talked about the Hall yet! The history and memories that are evoked in that place are unbelievable. One of the best days of my life.
|
|
|
Post by allenreed on Jan 9, 2014 21:17:54 GMT -5
Went there on vacation in 1994 and was stunned by the beauty of upstate NY. I went on a baseball themed tour and we saw games at Baltimore, Yankee Stadium, went to the HOF and then one last game at Fenway. One of the best times of my life. Cooperstown was marvelous. Beautiful lake nearby. Kind of a baseball themed Mayberry. Btw, I didn't really care for Fenway. The place is built for tiny people. Or was when I was there. Seats, aisles, passages through the stands, all tiny. The park is beautiful, the surrounding neighborhood is like a big block party before the game, but as for creature comforts, nope. The park they play in at the end of "A League of Their Own" is right down the street from the HOF. They were having a game there and I watched for a bit.
|
|
|
Post by allenreed on Jan 9, 2014 21:21:49 GMT -5
I'm sure Bonds is represented in some way in the HOF, perhaps equipment from one of his tainted record breakers. He just hasn't been deemed worthy of being a member. Quite correctly IMO. On the other hand, knowing Bonds, he probably sold the equipment.
|
|
|
Post by Rog on Jan 10, 2014 11:39:56 GMT -5
Allen -- Bonds' talent is considerable, but he doesn't break Maris' record, or Aaron's record without roids. Not even close. Rog -- I suspect you are right here, Allen. I hope you will agree that Barry was a clear Hall of Famer before we believe steroids became involved in his career. Steroids probably moved Barry up from a top 50 player to the top 5. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2165/which-player-got-shafted#ixzz2q0x6Dk5d
|
|