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Cano
Dec 16, 2013 10:58:11 GMT -5
Post by sharksrog on Dec 16, 2013 10:58:11 GMT -5
Robinson Cano helps illustrate why Jack Morris shouldn't make the Hall of Fame IMO.
We mentioned that Robinson has a WAR of 32 over the past five seasons. Morris' WAR of his ENTIRE CAREER was 39.
This is Morris' final year on the regular ballot, and I suspect that will swell his vote total somewhat. He might even make it to the necessary 75%. But I think that would be a big mistake, and I think the huge competition now on the ballot will keep him from doing so.
That said, I think it will then be 15 years until he is eligible for selection by the Veterans' Committee, which I personally would either eliminate or at least make it much harder for it to select a player. I think the Veterans' Committee will almost certainly put Jack in. And I think that will diminish the Hall even further.
One thing about the Hall of Fame though. The competiton is becoming so fierce that virtually all its regular inducties over the next few years will likely be quite deserving. The ballot is REALLY good this year, and it will continue at a very high level next season as well.
Even without Jack Morris on it.
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Cano
Dec 16, 2013 11:47:12 GMT -5
Post by allenreed on Dec 16, 2013 11:47:12 GMT -5
Tough call. He's right on the borderline. He was one of the best pitchers of his time, pitched some big games in the postseason. Three 20 win seasons, 12 with 15 or more wins. High ERA, but he wasn't looking at the bullpen in the fifth either. I agree with you that the number of current candidates might keep him out, but I don't think the Hall will be degraded if he does get in, as it will if say Bonds. Clemens, or any of the other steroid boys get in. Alot of guys who played against him think he should be in.
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Cano
Dec 16, 2013 14:54:16 GMT -5
Post by allenreed on Dec 16, 2013 14:54:16 GMT -5
Just curious. There's 36 guys on the ballot this year. Who would you put in. Keep in mind that you can put guys in there later, but who would you put in this year?
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Cano
Dec 16, 2013 20:21:06 GMT -5
Post by Islandboagie on Dec 16, 2013 20:21:06 GMT -5
Is Randy Johnson due on the ballot this year or next?
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Cano
Dec 16, 2013 21:18:42 GMT -5
Post by allenreed on Dec 16, 2013 21:18:42 GMT -5
Nope. Giants that are on it include JT Snow, Jeff Kent, Armando Benitez, Moises Alou, Ray Durham and that other guy.
Go to baseball reference and in the upper middle of the home page there's a link that will give you the entire list.
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Cano
Dec 17, 2013 10:15:33 GMT -5
Post by sharksrog on Dec 17, 2013 10:15:33 GMT -5
My personal standards are higher than the Hall's. I would vote for Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Greg Maddux, Edgar Martinez and Frank Thomas.
If I were voting for the maximum 10, I would add Craig Biggio, Jeff Bagwell, Mark McGwire, Tim Raines and Larry Walker.
Using the present (and IMO diluted) Hall of Fame standards (and ignoring steroids), I would say there are close to 20 players who deserve to be in the Hall. Since the first few ballots, isn't this one the best ever (if one ignores steroids)?
I can't remember exactly, but next year aren't Randy Johnson and Pedro Martinez on the ballot? Two or three other pretty good ones IIRC.
There are so many good candidates these days that it is really hard to accumulate the required 75% of the voting. The lingering steroid candidates would seem to make it even tougher. Ignoring steroids, Bonds, Clemens and Maddux are among the very, very best of all time. As in among the top 25 or so of all time.
If we rule out steroids players, Maddux would still be that high.
Come to think of it, have there ever been four pitchers as good as Clemens, Johnson, Maddux and Martinez to retire in a two-year period?
Looking ahead five years, Mariano Rivera might be the best player at his particular position of any player ever to play the game. IMO closers are a bit overrated, but Rivera has been so MUCH better than any other closer it makes one blink in surprise.
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Cano
Dec 17, 2013 10:36:50 GMT -5
Post by allenreed on Dec 17, 2013 10:36:50 GMT -5
I guess my standards are higher yet, as I wouldn't even take a second look at any of the steroid guys. I had three guys going in Maddux, Biggio, and Frank Thomas. It would be nice if Maddux and Glavine could go in together, but I always thought of Glavine as being a notch below Greg. I guess Tom would be my 3A. Maybe they could go in as an entry. Guys on the current ballot who eventually should make it are Glavine, Piazza, and maybe Raines, though the cocaine history kind of bothers me. To me, there are alof of borderline guys such as Kent, Bagwell, McGriff, Mussina, Morris, and Mattingly. Rivera's a no doubter. He's the best ever at what he did. It would be like not having Jerry Rice in the football HOF. That's why I see Piazza going in. Best hitting catcher ever.
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Post by rxmeister on Dec 17, 2013 10:47:48 GMT -5
Here's where the problem comes in when you ban the 'roiders, Allen. What you're basically doing is penalizing players that got caught and rewarding players that didn't. You're advocating Mike Piazza for the HOF, but there have been rumors about him for a long time. In his autobiography he admitted to using testosterone and greenies, but he claimed to draw the line with steroids. Yet there are many who have accused him and writers who saw him in the locker room claim he had a back covered with acne, a very common steroid side effect. How does a 50th round draft choice become arguably the greatest hitting catcher in the history of baseball? That alone raises suspicion. And the writers obviously think he's guilty, because his numbers make him a first ballot hall of famer, yet he didn't come close in his first year of eligibility. Frank Thomas is a big guy too, Allen. You sure he was clean?
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Cano
Dec 17, 2013 16:28:59 GMT -5
Post by allenreed on Dec 17, 2013 16:28:59 GMT -5
So it would be fairer (more fair?) to exclude people like Thomas and Piazza on mere suspicion because others used? You want to exclude Thomas simply because he's a large man? Interesting that the Bonds apologists have said again and again that roids don't help you become a better hitter, yet here you are saying exactly that about Piazza. You can't exclude someone merely on suspicion. What happened to innocent until proven guilty? Your way penalizes players that didn't get caught becaus of those who did. Mine just penalizes those that got caught.
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Post by rxmeister on Dec 17, 2013 21:27:58 GMT -5
Steroids don't make you a better hitter? Are you putting those words in my mouth to make your point? Barry Bonds was an MVP before he took steroids, afterwards he hit 73 homeruns in a season and was breaking records right and left, and he was doing it an advanced age. Barry is what happens when a great player takes steroids. As for Piazza, like I said he admitted using testosterone, so it's more than suspicion. Frank Thomas, I would agree with you on.
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Cano
Dec 17, 2013 21:37:14 GMT -5
Post by allenreed on Dec 17, 2013 21:37:14 GMT -5
If you consider yourself a Bonds apologist, I guess I am. There's alot of older guys who take testosterone, you cna get it now where you apply it like roll on deodorant. If testosterone is on the banned list (I don't know if it is or not) and Piazza has admitted using it, then you have my vote.
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Post by rxmeister on Dec 18, 2013 8:02:06 GMT -5
Testosterone IS on the banned list, but Piazza only admitted to using it before it was banned. If this is acceptable to you, then you're going to have to forgive Barry as well, because steroids weren't banned when Barry started using them.
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Cano
Dec 18, 2013 9:52:53 GMT -5
Post by allenreed on Dec 18, 2013 9:52:53 GMT -5
They were illegal. I guess if he were using heroin, that would have been OK too.
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Cano
Dec 19, 2013 0:48:18 GMT -5
Post by sharksrog on Dec 19, 2013 0:48:18 GMT -5
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Cano
Dec 19, 2013 8:28:15 GMT -5
Post by allenreed on Dec 19, 2013 8:28:15 GMT -5
Many have said it here. The argument goes that you have to have the basic hitting skills. Steroids just make you stronger.
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Cano
Dec 19, 2013 9:32:07 GMT -5
Post by sharksrog on Dec 19, 2013 9:32:07 GMT -5
Allen -- Interesting that the Bonds apologists have said again and again that roids don't help you become a better hitter Rog -- You must travel in different circles than I. I've never heard a single person say that. I can't even imagine anyone would do so. Allen -- Many have said it here. The argument goes that you have to have the basic hitting skills. Steroids just make you stronger. Rog -- Or perhaps they have said that a hitter has to have the basis skills, but steroids can make a good hitter even better. In Bonds' case, they took a sure Hall of Famer and made him into the most feared hitter of all time. 150 walks have been exceeded 10 times in baseball history. Bonds owns four of those times. Bonds' 120 intentional walks in 2004 would ALONE tie him for 131st (along with himself) in highest number of walks in a single season. Rickey Henderson ranks closest to Bonds in all-time walks, and Rickey's highest total of walks in a single season was 126. Rickey was intentionally walked 61 times in his career. Although it should be noted that intentional walks weren't recorded during Babe Ruth's career, it should be noted that the 120 intentional walks would rank Barry 80th in all-time career intentional passes. As it is, his 688 IBB's are more than double Hank Aaron's second place number of 293. The 688 total is higher than the combined totals of #7 (George Brett), #8 (Willie Stargell) and #9 (Eddie Murray) on the list. They are equal to the combined totals of #28 (Jim Thome), #29 (Rafael Palmeiro), #30 (Dave Winfield) and #31 (Fred McGriff). It is possible that Pete Rose's record for 4256 hits might be broken before Barry's intentional walk record. Certainly there have been players who were closer to Pete than to Barry. Miguel Cabrera (1995) is almost halfway to Rose's total, and Miguel has played only 10 full seasons. He seems very unlikely to make it past Rose though. Where Cabrera could make career inroads is in doubles, extra base hits, total bases and RBI's. Tris Speaker leads with 792 doubles. Miguel has 412. Hank Aaron leads with 1477 extra base hits. Miguel has 791. Aaron leads with 6852 total bases. Cabrera has 3530. Aaron leads with 2297 RBI's. Cabrera has 1260. Miguel still has a long way to go in each of those categories. But we've been talking about them for four years or so, and he certainly hasn't hurt his chances in that time. The past two seasons Miguel has had his two highest totals in home runs, total bases and RBI's. He probably won't play into his 40's, and almost certainly not well that far out. But if he does, he could put together a lot of records. I just saw film of Cabrera in the 2003 playoffs against the Giants. Even then as a 20-year-old rookie, he was a pretty good hitter. But little compared to what he became as a 21-year-old and has continued ever since. I believe Miguel was at one time considered on this board to be a weight and attitude problem. Somehow he's kind of worked through that. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=2122&page=2#17897#ixzz2nvfjOBYDRead more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=2122&page=2#17897#ixzz2nvfeROVW
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