I appreciate Allen

[sharksrog]

I appreciate that in another post, Allen was able to come up with two player (Pagan and Belt) he thought were underrated and one player (Bumgarner) that he felt was underpaid.

Regarding the latter, almost EVERY player who hasn't completed six full seasons is underpaid, but I do appreciate that Allen -- who I complained seemed to talk about players who were OVERrated rather than underrated -- came up with the pair.

Now here's some irony. While I have long agree with Allen regarding Belt, I don't think Pagan is underrated.

Not that he's horrible or anything. But in his two seasons with the Giants, he's put up OPS of only .778 and .749. That's not at all bad for a center fielder, but it's not great. And I think we would agree he isn't a great fielder.

Angel seems best used as a leadoff man, yet his .338 and .334 OBP's' with the Giants are insufficient for a leadoff man. His 38 Giants steals in 49 attempts is very good, and overall he's a good base runner.

Overall, I think Angel is a slightly above average center fielder, and I believe he generally is seen as being at least that good.

The only way I can see Angel's being underrated would be if his chemistry adds enough to make him so. And even there, I think he's being appreciated more and more. No longer is he considered to be divisive.

[allenreed]

I think Angel brings stuff to the table that can't always be statified. We saw how the Giants game stepped up this year when he returned, and they weren't doing badly when he left. I think he brings a certain swagger that we need.
I also don't think Angel is a bad centerfielder, though many here seem to think he is. He's made some very good plays in center while with the Giants. More good than bad.
BTW, I also named Aoki of the Brewers as an underpaid and underrated player.

[sharksrog]

Allen -- I think Angel brings stuff to the table that can't always be statified. We saw how the Giants game stepped up this year when he returned, and they weren't doing badly when he left. I think he brings a certain swagger that we need.

Rog -- We just don't know, do we? It may be that the Giants play a lot better with Angel. They won it all the first year he played for them, and as you mention, they played clearly better this season with him than without.

Then again, we could have made a similar argument for Buster Posey. The Giants took off when he was called up and went on to win the World Series. They played pretty well in 2011 until his injury -- and then played worse. The again won it when he played a full season in 2012.

Then suddenly this past season they didn't play so well with him in the lineup. It is hard to tell if there is a cause and effect relationship.

It may be that Pagan sparks the Giants, but I'm not sure there is a way to know.

Let me ask everyone this. With the possible exception of the effect of catchers on pitchers, were there players you played with who truly made you a better or worse player? Personally, I was able to pretty much stink no matter whom I played with.

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