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Post by sharksrog on Oct 1, 2013 0:34:14 GMT -5
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Closers
Oct 1, 2013 12:08:29 GMT -5
Post by dk on Oct 1, 2013 12:08:29 GMT -5
how about Jumbo Brown or Ace Adams? ?
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Closers
Oct 8, 2013 12:00:38 GMT -5
Post by sfgdood on Oct 8, 2013 12:00:38 GMT -5
Come on Boly...you're nitpicking on this one. You are right that Romo's numbers ARE trending upward...but the starting point was at a ridiculous video game level. A 1.08 WHIP and just 12 walks for the year is outstanding by any measure. I agree his slider didn't look as sharp late in the year but I put that on the short offseason, compounded by the WBC. Bottom line is there are much more pressing needs to address than a closer. The closers that had better years are few, far between and unavailable. I'm fine with Casilla as a backup plan.
~Dood
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Closers
Oct 8, 2013 13:41:06 GMT -5
Post by sharksrog on Oct 8, 2013 13:41:06 GMT -5
I think both Boly and Randy are right about Romo. Sergio still pitched at a high level last season, but his stats are definitely declining. As Randy points out, they have declined from ridiculous levels.
Like Randy, I'm fine with having Romo to close and Casilla as a backup. I would simply monitor their usage and split the job between them a bit more than the Giants did in 2013.
The Giants also have Heath Hembree as a possible backup, and even Jeremy Affeldt can close when he's on one of his good streaks. Maybe Chad Gaudin, if Chad returns to the bullpen. If Javier Lopez returns, he too can do the job in an inning that involves mostly lefty hitters.
It truly doesn't have to be just one guy. Sometimes it can be a matter of going with the hot hand -- or the situation.
Would I like a better closer than Romo? Of course. But don't the Giants have several more pressing needs to fill? Despite his decline in 2013, Sergio was at least an average closer.
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Closers
Oct 8, 2013 15:06:27 GMT -5
Post by allenreed on Oct 8, 2013 15:06:27 GMT -5
Who would you get that's better than Romo? Remember, Mo retired. Romo's stats declined, but they were still very good, they just weren't at Eckersley levels again. Romo is just fine.
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Closers
Oct 9, 2013 10:42:50 GMT -5
Post by Islandboagie on Oct 9, 2013 10:42:50 GMT -5
Romo is better in situational appearances. As difficult as it is to find a good closer, it's even more difficult to find what Romo gave us from 2010-2012. If it were up to me I'd make Casilla the closer and maybe work Hembree into the closer role when he gets a little more experience.
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Closers
Oct 9, 2013 13:34:38 GMT -5
Post by klaiggeb on Oct 9, 2013 13:34:38 GMT -5
Romo is better in situational appearances. As difficult as it is to find a good closer, it's even more difficult to find what Romo gave us from 2010-2012. If it were up to me I'd make Casilla the closer and maybe work Hembree into the closer role when he gets a little more experience.
---boly says---
That is exactly what I've been saying, Boagie. Romo is exception at "situational" moments in the game.
He's not a bad closer. I rate him as a good closer. Still, as I continue to say, I prefer the "power arm" in that spot; thus, I agree with Casilla in that role.
Something I DIDN'T want in 2012... but I was proven very, very wrong.
boly
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Closers
Oct 9, 2013 13:48:51 GMT -5
Post by sfgdood on Oct 9, 2013 13:48:51 GMT -5
A closer's job is to close games and Romo did that at a pretty high level last year. As the saying goes, they don't ask how, they just ask how many. I don't care how he got it done...MLB's all time saves leader got most of them with a sub-90 fastball.
If it aint broke, don't fix it. The broken part of the pen is the part that gets it to the 8th. Focus on that first.
~Dood
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Closers
Oct 9, 2013 13:52:11 GMT -5
Post by sfgdood on Oct 9, 2013 13:52:11 GMT -5
Oh and by the way, that all time saves leader with the sub-90 fastball was managed by Bruce Bochy.
~Dood
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Post by rxmeister on Oct 9, 2013 15:58:34 GMT -5
I believe Mariano Rivera has surpassed Trevor Hoffman as the all time saves leader, but your point is spot on. Of course nobody cared much in the old days about relievers and saves, or there would probably be some turn of the century guy with a ridiculous nickname who had 2000 of them.
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Closers
Oct 10, 2013 10:09:03 GMT -5
Post by klaiggeb on Oct 10, 2013 10:09:03 GMT -5
I believe Mariano Rivera has surpassed Trevor Hoffman as the all time saves leader, but your point is spot on. Of course nobody cared much in the old days about relievers and saves, or there would probably be some turn of the century guy with a ridiculous nickname who had 2000 of them.
---boly says---
Randy, please, be fair. Trevor Hoffman is the exception, not the rule.
I never said sub 90's guys couldn't be outstanding closers, I simply said I wanted a power arm.
Let us not forget that Trevor once DID have a 90+ fastball, and he coupled that with an almost unhittable change up.
The change up does NOT cause the stress on the arm or elbow that the slider does.
If one has never thrown the slider, it's hard to understand WHY it puts such stress on the arm because it needs to be felt and experienced.
Krukow often talks about this; the catcher calls for a couple in a row, and the pitcher has to shake him off because he just CAN'T throw another.
What's Romo's out pitch?
Slider.
Mariano's out pitch was the cutter; easy to throw as a 2 or 4 seam fastball, compared to the slider ZERO stress on the arm.
boly
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Closers
Oct 10, 2013 11:47:43 GMT -5
Post by sfgdood on Oct 10, 2013 11:47:43 GMT -5
I never threw sliders. My breaking pitch of choice was an overhand curve...what I called a Drop and what is now called a 12-6 curve. I do understand how stress is put on the arm when throwing lots of sliders. My point wasn't that Romo is going to go on to challenge either Hoffman or Rivera for career longevity and greatness...merely that right now he's a steady and very good closer and teams that have a good or great closer aren't going to let them go or change them.
The most important stat for closers is save percentage and Romo's is very good. He delivered this season and has delivered pretty much his entire career for us. The guy's got great heart and guts which is what you want in a closer...furthermore the team believes in him. I like Casilla as a setup man and backup closer because he has a good lively fastball but also has a variety of specialty pitches that are nasty. But the fact remains that when Casilla was the #1 guy he, broke down somehow during the season. And then he broke down last year as a setup man.
Niether guy, I feel, will be the Giants closer beyond 2015...but for now this is a more than adequate situation. If in the next two seasons, Hembree shows he can dominate BIG LEAGUE hitters consistently, then he might take the job. Apart from that, there's no reason to look to change at this point.
~Dood
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Closers
Oct 10, 2013 14:37:30 GMT -5
Post by Islandboagie on Oct 10, 2013 14:37:30 GMT -5
A closer's job is to close games and Romo did that at a pretty high level last year. As the saying goes, they don't ask how, they just ask how many. I don't care how he got it done...MLB's all time saves leader got most of them with a sub-90 fastball.
If it aint broke, don't fix it. The broken part of the pen is the part that gets it to the 8th. Focus on that first.
~Dood
Boagie- Very true, Randy. And when they moved Romo to the closer spot everyone dropped one inning. Casilla and Affeldt moved to the 8th when they were mainly used in the 6th and 7th innings. If you plug in another closer you can move everyone back to the roles they had when the Giants bullpen was arguably the best in baseball.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Closers
Oct 10, 2013 16:13:21 GMT -5
Post by sfgdood on Oct 10, 2013 16:13:21 GMT -5
And when they moved Romo to the closer spot everyone dropped one inning. Casilla and Affeldt moved to the 8th when they were mainly used in the 6th and 7th innings. If you plug in another closer you can move everyone back to the roles they had when the Giants bullpen was arguably the best in baseball.
Dood - two things, Boagie...1, it's not that simple. You're talking about 2 years ago and lots has changed since then. Mota's gone, we don't know if Lopez will be back yet, and Kontos isn't getting it done anymore. The guys we plugged in behind them were pretty inconsistent. 2, you make "plugging in a new closer" sound like finding closers as good or better than Romo is as easy as picking a lemon off a small tree. Teams aren't just going to give them away.
~Dood
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Closers
Oct 11, 2013 6:07:13 GMT -5
Post by sharksrog on Oct 11, 2013 6:07:13 GMT -5
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Oct 11, 2013 6:13:32 GMT -5
Post by sharksrog on Oct 11, 2013 6:13:32 GMT -5
The bullpen was perhaps most affected by declines from Kontos, Mijares and Affeldt. Romo too, as was most shown by the significant drop in his won-loss record.
Hard to argue that Romo didn't pitch well, although he predictably, he wasn't as dominant as he had been the three previous seasons. Romo isn't the best closer in the game, but it's hard to argue that he isn't at least average in that role.
Let's not forget that Heath Hembree could be the wild card in next season's bullpen. Affeldt could return stronger, as well.
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Closers
Oct 11, 2013 6:16:28 GMT -5
Post by sharksrog on Oct 11, 2013 6:16:28 GMT -5
It is said that the Giants are going to non-tender Jose Mijares. That would seem a strong indication they expect Javier Lopez back.
I haven't analyzed Lopez statistically, but he would seem a good candidate for decline. If the Giants have two lefties in the pen instead of three, their ability to match up would be diminished a bit.
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Closers
Oct 11, 2013 8:31:03 GMT -5
Post by klaiggeb on Oct 11, 2013 8:31:03 GMT -5
Niether guy, I feel, will be the Giants closer beyond 2015...but for now this is a more than adequate situation. If in the next two seasons, Hembree shows he can dominate BIG LEAGUE hitters consistently, then he might take the job. Apart from that, there's no reason to look to change at this point.
---boly says---
the drop! You don't hear that term anymore Randy, but I sure remember it!
That was MY choice of breaking ball, too.
Bu the term has gone the way of the Dodo bird.
I agree with you on both points;
1-Romo/Casilla not beyond 2015, and 2 until Hembree PROVES he can do it, he can't/shouldn't be the closer.
boly
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Closers
Oct 13, 2013 10:25:13 GMT -5
Post by sharksrog on Oct 13, 2013 10:25:13 GMT -5
Speaking of Giants relievers, Jerry Johnson was pretty good for them in 1971. Johnson recorded a combination of 12 wins and 18 saves.
I had the chance to speak with Jerry one spring training. I asked him about his change up. He replied, "I should probably throw it more."
I thought I was pretty smart until I saw him throw one to Hank Aaron -- and the ball was never seen again.
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