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Closers
Sept 27, 2013 15:07:02 GMT -5
Post by klaiggeb on Sept 27, 2013 15:07:02 GMT -5
Many of you are Happy with Romo closing next year.
I am not one of them.
I pointed out weeks ago, and then Rog reenforced my point by listing his ever growing ERA, that Romo was/is on the decline.
That not only is his velocity down, but so is his stuff and command.
Over the last month, when he's NOT been over taxed to pitch, his once pinpoint command has eluded him, and his once devastating slider is now just a ball rolling slowly off a table.
And if that's not enough, he's LOST 8 games.
Add that to the saves he's blown, which aren't many admittedly, and it's not only not a pretty picture, but it's NOT the record of the guy I want closing for us next year.
Likely his arm simply can't hold up to all the work, or, maybe, like most relievers, the toll of pitching so often has simply caught up with him.
I don't know.
But I DO know, we need more from a closer next year.
I couldn't find his number of blown saves this year, and every closer worth his salt has around 5 a year, but couple that with 8 losses, and it ain't good.
Is Hembree the answer?
I have no clue.
I still haven't seen that mid 90's fastball, and I haven't seen enough of him to make an informed decision, but I don't think Romo's going to get better.
4 consecutive years of 64+ games takes it toll on ANYBODY.
And when you aren't a giant to begin with...I believe it takes even a bigger toll.
Now, I'll sit back and wait for ya'all to rip me a new one.
boly
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Post by rxmeister on Sept 28, 2013 6:47:09 GMT -5
Sergio Romo is my closer and I don't want anybody else. They're all tired, Romo included, and the long offseason will fix that. Let's not forget that not only did Romo pitch late into the post season last year, he also started early this year by pitching for Mexico in the WBC. Despite all that, he has a good ERA, a 5-1 K-BB ratio, and 38 saves in 43 chances. He's one of the best closers in the game and you want to replace him? The Giants have a lot of weak spots that need fixing this offseason, but the bullpen isn't one of them. He'll be a free agent after next season, and if he's declining as you think, (and I don't) the move to replace him can be made then.
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Closers
Sept 28, 2013 11:13:49 GMT -5
Post by allenreed on Sept 28, 2013 11:13:49 GMT -5
I agree. I don't see Romo as a problem. The WBC thing can be said about Vogey as well. I would disagree that we have "alot" of weak spots. Me? I don't let my pitchers go to that thing. Especially if we were in the postseason the year prior.
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Closers
Sept 28, 2013 13:51:43 GMT -5
Post by klaiggeb on Sept 28, 2013 13:51:43 GMT -5
I agree. I don't see Romo as a problem. The WBC thing can be said about Vogey as well. I would disagree that we have "alot" of weak spots. Me? I don't let my pitchers go to that thing. Especially if we were in the postseason the year prior.
---boly says---
Allen: I think you and Mark are missing my point.
Romo is NOT the problem. That is obvious.
My point, and my only point is that his performance is on the decline.
Velocity-Down Command-Down Walks/IP-UP ERA-UP WHIP UP considerable Losses-UP 1, and then 2 and now 8
And ya'll don't see a trend here?
Ya'all are okay with that?
Hey, look. If he's the best we can get, I have no problem with that.
But I, and I'm sure all of you, want to be back to the post season next year.
And IF...IF this trend continues, a closer on the decline is not a good thing.
That's my point.
boly
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Closers
Sept 28, 2013 14:48:57 GMT -5
Post by allenreed on Sept 28, 2013 14:48:57 GMT -5
Boly, you say Romo isn't the problem than list reasons why he is a problem. I'm not sure he had a bad year this year as much as his 2012 season was just stellar. He's walked two (2) more hitters than he did last year. That could be attributable to bad calls. Do you expect him to have a sub 2.00 ERA every year? I'm not sure I'm ready to dump a 2.58 closer who got 38 saves for a bad team.
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Post by rxmeister on Sept 28, 2013 15:45:08 GMT -5
As I said before, he pitched in the post season and WBC. In addition, it was his first full season as a closer. Any "problems" to me are due to tiredness. I think you're worrying about nothing, but if you're right and he is declining, it's perfect that he has only one year left till free agency.
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Closers
Sept 29, 2013 2:54:13 GMT -5
Post by sharksrog on Sept 29, 2013 2:54:13 GMT -5
I think the answer is simply to load up the bullpen as much as possible and see who wins the job. Romo, Casilla and Hembree may each have the ability to close.
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Closers
Sept 29, 2013 2:56:39 GMT -5
Post by sharksrog on Sept 29, 2013 2:56:39 GMT -5
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Closers
Sept 29, 2013 2:58:27 GMT -5
Post by sharksrog on Sept 29, 2013 2:58:27 GMT -5
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Closers
Sept 29, 2013 12:36:39 GMT -5
Post by Islandboagie on Sept 29, 2013 12:36:39 GMT -5
I agree with Boly, Room is good closer but not a great closer. However he was a great setup guy, I'd like to see him back in that role and give the closer role to someone else. Perhaps Hembree, Casilla or make it a closer by committee situation.
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Closers
Sept 29, 2013 12:37:25 GMT -5
Post by Islandboagie on Sept 29, 2013 12:37:25 GMT -5
Room = Romo.
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Post by rxmeister on Sept 29, 2013 12:58:49 GMT -5
Closing ball games is overrated anyway. It's just another inning to protect the lead. A reliever can blow the game just as easily in the seventh and eighth. How many times have you seen the eighth inning guy get out the heart of the order, and then the closer gets an easy save against the bottom of the lineup? It's much more important to have a good deep bullpen than a great closer. Any GM who spends big money on a closer is nuts. Use all that money on two or three good middle relievers.
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Closers
Sept 29, 2013 13:26:50 GMT -5
Post by sharksrog on Sept 29, 2013 13:26:50 GMT -5
Boagie -- I agree with Boly, Room is good closer but not a great closer. However he was a great setup guy, I'd like to see him back in that role and give the closer role to someone else. Perhaps Hembree, Casilla or make it a closer by committee situation. Rog -- With a deep top of the bullpen such as the Giants have, I'm usually in favor of a closer by committee. This season I thought the Giants should have used Santiago Casilla more in the closer role to give Sergio more rest. Regarding the use of Romo, what makes us think that he will suddenly revert to being a great pitcher simply because the Giants move him back to set up man. Will his slider be crisper? Will he hit his spots better? Will he do a better job of setting hitters up? I realize some think only special relievers have the "makeup" to be a closer. Shall we not forget though that in 2012, Santiago Casilla saved 20 of his first 21 opportunities with a 1.59 ERA until he began to experience arm troubles. Why not have Santiago take some of the load off Romo in the closer role? Heck, why not have Javier Lopez close out the occasional game against a lefy-centric lineup? I think the Giants have had plenty of closer talent each of the past two seasons. I simply think they often got more caught up in roles than they did in keeping their relievers properly rested. Remember the game on September 18th when Sergio was brought in to close out a game that Santiago Casilla was allowing to slip away? Sergio wound up that night having thrown a starter-like 103 pitches in six days. Is it any wonder he blew the save? Bochy did try to do the right thing by having Casilla begin the ninth with the intent of Santiago's closing out the game. But really, could a rested Heath Hembree have had less chance of success than an arm-stressed Romo? The game didn't matter, so why not give Hembree a chance rather than put further strain on an already overworked Romo arm? That game was simply an example of what I believe is a counter-productive mentality about how to use closers. In 2012 the Giants fared well with Casilla as their closer -- until they overused him, and his arm suffered. After saving 20 of 21, Santiago blew only his second save opportunity -- when he was pitching for the third straight day. The closer by committee worked pretty well. Romo as closer worked well -- as the Giants didn't overuse him as a closer, never having him pitch three days in a row and only twice having him throw more than 18 pitches in a game. This season as closer, Romo pitched only four more innings, spreading them over five fewer appearances. But he threw nearly 20% more pitches. Yes, Sergio blew that September 18th save and didn't look very good in doing so. But look at how the Giants used him (even during a meaningless stretch of games). First they had him throw in three straight games. They then gave him two days off and asked him to throw 103 pitches over the six days after that. In that one six-day stretch, Sergio threw over 10% of the pitches he threw all season -- in a season of about 180 days. I think the Giants have the bullpen for the job (especially if they are able to re-sign Javier Lopez, who has previously left money on the table to re-sign as a Giant). I think they simply need to learn how to use those relievers more effectively. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=2022&page=1#15436#ixzz2gJ0b7O8G
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Post by rxmeister on Sept 29, 2013 14:49:24 GMT -5
Rog, the biggest problem with closer by committee is that the relievers don't like it. They like their roles clearly defined. Sounds silly, but they all have their routines with regards to preparing mentally and physically and then warming up and then coming in. They don't like being jacked around, closing one day, middle relief the next time, and then setting up, for example.
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Closers
Sept 29, 2013 14:57:41 GMT -5
Post by klaiggeb on Sept 29, 2013 14:57:41 GMT -5
Boly, you say Romo isn't the problem than list reasons why he is a problem. I'm not sure he had a bad year this year as much as his 2012 season was just stellar. He's walked two (2) more hitters than he did last year. That could be attributable to bad calls. Do you expect him to have a sub 2.00 ERA every year? I'm not sure I'm ready to dump a 2.58 closer who got 38 saves for a bad team.
--boly says---
Mark, I didn't say he is a problem. I said I wanted a power arm as a closer.
Also, yes, only 2 more BB... but, if you've watched all the games that I have, (around 140+), then you saw what I saw; Tons of extra pitches because his pinpoint control is no longer, pin point.
Again I stress, velocity it down.
His slider break is no longer sharp and hasn't been since... July, when I first pointed it out.
Now, most of the time, it rolls up there.
All I'm doing is pointing out what I see a potential trouble spot... just as I did with Lincecum when I first saw him.
We got 3 or 4 good/great years from Tim, but he's no longer that guy.
Yes, by today's ridiculous, 4.00-ERA-is-okay stands, he's 'average,' but he's not the dominante, top-of-the-rotation guy he once was.
Now he's 3 at BEST, actually, a #4
Romo is still pretty good, but I think that Sabean and Bochy are being foolish to think he's still good enough to be a "top" closer in the NL.
And do I expect him to post a sub 2.00 ERA each year?
No. Of course not.
I was just pointing out how his ERA has been on the constant rise these last 3 seasons
boly
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Closers
Sept 29, 2013 14:59:29 GMT -5
Post by klaiggeb on Sept 29, 2013 14:59:29 GMT -5
I agree with Boly, Room is good closer but not a great closer. However he was a great setup guy, I'd like to see him back in that role and give the closer role to someone else. Perhaps Hembree, Casilla or make it a closer by committee situation.
Rea---boly says---
Boagie, thank you!
Someone actually gets my point. He's still a good closer; he's not great.
I agree with your entire post EXCEPT the bullpen by committee. I've never been an advocate of that.
boly
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Post by rxmeister on Sept 29, 2013 15:02:50 GMT -5
Boly, who do you want to replace Romo with next season?
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Closers
Sept 29, 2013 15:04:49 GMT -5
Post by klaiggeb on Sept 29, 2013 15:04:49 GMT -5
Boly, who do you want to replace Romo with next season?
---boly says---
Right now, I don't know who would be available, so I can't answer that question.
BUT... that WOULD be on my "to do" list this off season.
Not at the top of the list, but on the list.
1-We need 2 starters 2-We need a banger in LF 3-We need bullpen depth
All those are first.
Personally, I'd consider Santiago as the guy, but that's just my thinking at the moment.
He fits my profile; Power arm.
boly
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Post by rxmeister on Sept 29, 2013 16:25:37 GMT -5
You're going to have to explain that one to me, Boly. How does switching Romo and Casilla have any affect on this team either positive or negative? And how do you explain to Romo that he's no longer the closer when he did nothing to get demoted?
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Closers
Sept 29, 2013 18:54:56 GMT -5
Post by allenreed on Sept 29, 2013 18:54:56 GMT -5
You're worried about Romo not having pinpoint control and you want to go with Casilla?
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Closers
Sept 30, 2013 9:32:57 GMT -5
Post by klaiggeb on Sept 30, 2013 9:32:57 GMT -5
You're going to have to explain that one to me, Boly. How does switching Romo and Casilla have any affect on this team either positive or negative? And how do you explain to Romo that he's no longer the closer when he did nothing to get demoted?
---boly says---
I agree with you. but you pressed me for an answer and I came up with one on our team that fits the profile I have.
Power arm.
As to explaining to Romo... how about explaining to Casilla how he never got his job back AFTER his blister, and the ensuring problems, healed?
boly
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Closers
Sept 30, 2013 9:34:13 GMT -5
Post by klaiggeb on Sept 30, 2013 9:34:13 GMT -5
You're worried about Romo not having pinpoint control and you want to go with Casilla?
--boly says---
Different pitchers.
Romo CAN'T get by without his control, Santiago can.
And until this year, Casilla had shown above average control.
Hey. I'm not saying I want him to close, I'm saying for MY PROFILE he's a better choice
boly
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Closers
Sept 30, 2013 9:38:37 GMT -5
Post by allenreed on Sept 30, 2013 9:38:37 GMT -5
I think Casilla was better this year control wise than he has been. And he's not awful, Romo is just better.
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Closers
Sept 30, 2013 9:47:41 GMT -5
Post by sharksrog on Sept 30, 2013 9:47:41 GMT -5
Mark -- Rog, the biggest problem with closer by committee is that the relievers don't like it. They like their roles clearly defined. Sounds silly, but they all have their routines with regards to preparing mentally and physically and then warming up and then coming in. They don't like being jacked around, closing one day, middle relief the next time, and then setting up, for example. Rog -- You make a good point here, Mark. Two points though: . While I beileve in running a happy ship to the degree possible, ultimately it is my job to get players to buy in to what is best for the team. . The perfect time to set up such a thing is a time such as when Brian Wilson went down. At that point going to closer by committee gives members of "the committee" an upgrade of their positions, making it easier for them to accept less clearly defined roles. As an example, did we hear Chad Gaudin complaining when he pitched in a variety of roles out of the bulllpen and ultimately joined the rotation? To limit the upheaval of roles, the manager or pitching coach can tell each pitcher each day how the team intends to use him. On a team with depth in the bullpen, flexibility can be a big plus. So let's suppose a reliever wants a set routine. All he has to do is move the routine up a couple of hours. Then the routine can still be, well, routine. It can also become comfortably repetitive, as the pitcher can repeat the routine (perhaps in a condensed manner) any time he wants. We talk here about the importance of team chemistry, of players playing for their teammates. Get the relievers to buy into the team concept. Perhaps we should begin by changing the name of bullpen by committee to a bullpen TEAM. If TEAM chemistry is important, build it, buy into it, and bring it. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=2022&page=1#15447#ixzz2gO2yNXy6
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Closers
Sept 30, 2013 9:50:16 GMT -5
Post by sharksrog on Sept 30, 2013 9:50:16 GMT -5
Boly -- Mark, I didn't say he is a problem. I said I wanted a power arm as a closer. Rog -- I understand, but what I want from my closer (or my closer of the day) is a guy who can get outs. In certain situations, yes, it is nice to have a pitcher who can get a lot of strikeouts, just as in others it is nice to have a pitcher who can induce a lot of double plays. But mostly, I want my closer to get OUTS. Usually three of them will do just fine. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=2022&page=1#ixzz2gO62Mw3g
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Closers
Sept 30, 2013 9:56:30 GMT -5
Post by sharksrog on Sept 30, 2013 9:56:30 GMT -5
Adding to my previous comment, the closer pitches in situations in which the batter is often more anxious than usual. A deceptive pitcher can actually be MORE effective, in that once the closer gets ahead of the batter, if he has deceptive stuff, he can often get the batter to chase, resulting in less contact and more downward and/or soft contact when contact is made. Stu Miller was perhaps the Giants first San Francisco closer. I'm not sure he threw hard enough to break the proverbial pane of glass, yet he was a good enough closer that he made both All-Star games in 1961. That season his role likely wasn't as clearly defined as today's roles, yet he finished 46 of 63 games, pitching 122 innings to do so. In those 63 outings, he not only saved 17 games, he won another 14 more. Think how well he could have pitched if he had enjoyed a defined role!
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Closers
Sept 30, 2013 10:04:08 GMT -5
Post by allenreed on Sept 30, 2013 10:04:08 GMT -5
Another guy I remember as being pretty good in the mid to late 60s was Frank Linzy. Frank had 77 saves for the Giants over a five year period for the Giants.
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Closers
Sept 30, 2013 21:43:20 GMT -5
Post by sharksrog on Sept 30, 2013 21:43:20 GMT -5
Boly -- 1-We need 2 starters 2-We need a banger in LF 3-We need bullpen depth Rog -- The Giants are looking for THREE starters, although two of them may be Tim Lincecum and Ryan Vogelsong. A banger in left field would be nice, but the Giants are first emphasizing the starting pitching. Ideally, the left fielder would indeed be a banger, but as long as he can hit and field, I'm OK with it. It's always nice to have bullpen depth, but if the Giants re-sign Javier Lopez and Chad Gaudin (who may be under team control anyway), I'm OK with simply adding Heath Hembree. Romo, Casilla, Lopez, Affeldt, Hembree, Gaudin and the long reliever of choice (Petit?) looks fine to me -- especially with so many other holes to fill. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=2022&page=1#ixzz2gQycZp2u
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Closers
Sept 30, 2013 21:47:00 GMT -5
Post by sharksrog on Sept 30, 2013 21:47:00 GMT -5
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Closers
Sept 30, 2013 22:27:51 GMT -5
Post by allenreed on Sept 30, 2013 22:27:51 GMT -5
Jim Duffalo! There's a name I had forgotten. Bolin could throw hard before he hurt his arm. McMahon looked about 60 years old. Henry I remember more with the Reds than the Giants.
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