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Post by klaiggeb on Sept 14, 2013 10:26:57 GMT -5
1-Our bullpen, if Vin Scully is correct, has lost 28 games this year.
2-Romo has lost 7
3-Romo's ERA has jumped from 1.7 last year, to 2.5 this year. Still very respectable, but for me, that's a concern.
Why? Because he has to be perfect with his location due to lack of a heater. THAT is what a power pitcher is better suited to close.
4-After Romo, Casilla, & Lopez, we have a ton of question marks.
Mijares has been just another guy, as has Affeldt.
Machi, whom, at one point I really liked, has something like a .356 batting average against with RISP.
Moscoso is useless.
Dunning is an unknown, but a guy I think could be the # 11 or 12 guy in the pen because, until late, was a strike thrower.
Kontos... I have no clue what happened to Kontos, but he's flat out not been very good.
5-Our over all starting staff has been THE worst, or close to the worst in all of baseball.
As I wrote in another post, we have 2 capable guys, one of whom WILL be comming off a very sub par season.
6-For some reason, this group just can't seem to score as it should.
Pablo- 20-25 HR potential
Posey 20-25 HR potential
Pence 20-25 HR potential
Belt 18-23 HR potential
Belt is getting close to finally putting things together.
Pence is right where he is expected to be.
But Posey and Pablo are not.
Posey I understand, somewhat, because he gets pitched around so much, but this guys should be scoring more runs.
Unfortunately, we let fish maggots like McCarthy often silence our bats... which I flat out don't get at all.
7-We really DON'T have a leadoff guy.
8-Scutaro is a crap shoot on pop flies behind him.
How many has he drop, or simply screwed up this year? Waaay too many.
9-We need a left fielder who can hit.
We simply cannot go one more year with our some pop out there.
But as I say that, whomever gets the job CAN'T be a bopper who is below average on defense.
In our park, as big as it is, we can't afford to give away runs because we have a left fielder wearing cement shoes.
There are more things to consider, I know, but those are my priorities.
boly
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Post by sharksrog on Sept 15, 2013 18:00:07 GMT -5
Boly -- We really DON'T have a leadoff guy.
Rog -- In Belt, Posey and Scutaro, I think the Giants do. It's just that those guys hit in other positions in the order. Hunter Pence could likely do it.
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Post by sharksrog on Sept 15, 2013 18:02:58 GMT -5
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Post by allenreed on Sept 15, 2013 22:15:58 GMT -5
Pagan's probably the best leadoff guy we've had since Brett Butler. What's wrong with Angel as a leadoff guy?
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Post by klaiggeb on Sept 16, 2013 10:10:30 GMT -5
Pagan's probably the best leadoff guy we've had since Brett Butler. What's wrong with Angel as a leadoff guy?
---boly says---
His OBP, Allen. He simply doesn't work the count, and walk enough.
The lead off hitter should NOT be chasing pitches early in the count.
What Butler did best, was get on base.
His lifetime OBP is .377
Pagan: .336
Not terrible, but not that good.
boly
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Post by Islandboagie on Sept 16, 2013 11:11:29 GMT -5
Angel isn't the best leadoff hitter but he's solid. He's got a decent obp, good speed and a little pop, overall he's best geared to for leading off on the Giants roster. However, Torres was probably better in 2010 and Darryl Hamilton wasn't too shabby either.
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Post by klaiggeb on Sept 16, 2013 12:34:27 GMT -5
Angel isn't the best leadoff hitter but he's solid. He's got a decent obp, good speed and a little pop, overall he's best geared to for leading off on the Giants roster. However, Torres was probably better in 2010
---boly says---
Agreed.
My comment was more geared to the posts about Ellsbury. HE is my IDEAL kind of leadoff guy.
Good OBP, Fast, and with a little pop.
Pagan is likely the best we've got, though, that's for sure.
boly
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Post by Islandboagie on Sept 16, 2013 13:14:18 GMT -5
Agreed. We've also been discussing instincts on defense, but IMO having instincts at the plate is a crucial ingredient that helps to be a good leadoff hitter. Butler had great leadoff instincts. He knew when to lay down a bunt, and whether to drag bunt or not. My frustration with leadoff hitters is that bunting CAN be effective, and you can practice bunting a lot without wearing yourself out. Why are Blanco, Pagan, Torres and other speedy players not learning the art of bunting? If I were Bochy these guys would spend hours a week dropping down bunts. With a thing like bunting, practice does make perfect. Hire Butler (or someone like him) to come in and teach this!
Remember a few years back when they had everyone compete in a bunting competition during workouts in spring training? I liked that, but this shouldn't be news worthy, it should be the status quo.
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Post by klaiggeb on Sept 16, 2013 14:43:39 GMT -5
My frustration with leadoff hitters is that bunting CAN be effective, and you can practice bunting a lot without wearing yourself out. Why are Blanco, Pagan, Torres and other speedy players not learning the art of bunting?
---boly says---
Boagie, you're singing my song. I can't tell you how many times I've asked that question aloud...
I remember Maury Wills saying that bunting for hits adds points to your batting average, because it draws the corners in, which gives better angles from which the hitter can what the ball through a gap.
boly
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Post by allenreed on Sept 16, 2013 14:52:34 GMT -5
Pagan's probably the best leadoff guy we've had since Brett Butler. What's wrong with Angel as a leadoff guy? ---boly says--- His OBP, Allen. He simply doesn't work the count, and walk enough. The lead off hitter should NOT be chasing pitches early in the count. Allen- The Giants won the World Series last year largely because of Pagan's performance as a leadoff hitter. This year, they were doing Ok when he went out, and have been playing a livelier, more engaged brand of ball since he returned. They were 32-52 while he was out. He seems to be a difference maker. |
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Post by allenreed on Sept 16, 2013 14:55:24 GMT -5
=1379355258]Hire Butler (or someone like him) to come in and teach this!
Allen- I believe Butler managed in Reno this year. He may have higher career aspirations than being the Giants' bunting instructor.
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Post by sharksrog on Sept 17, 2013 9:38:37 GMT -5
Boagie -- Butler had great leadoff instincts. He knew when to lay down a bunt, and whether to drag bunt or not. Rog -- A hypothetical question here: Was Butler a good leadoff man because he knew when to lay down a bunt and whether to drag bunt or not, or because he was good at EXECUTING those things? I guess my point would be that you or I might have had as good an idea of when to do those things as Brett did, but he was much better than we because he could execute and we couldn't do so nearly as well. Probably some of each. But IMO, Brett was a really good leadoff hitter primarily because he could get on base, and to some extent, he was good at advancing once he got there. Leading off an inning did it matter if he got to first base with a walk, a swinging hit or a bunt? By the way, Brett his pretty much right at his career averages when he was batting first, leading off a game or leading off an inning. Perhaps surprisingly, he did his best hitting when batting 2nd in the order. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=2004&page=1#15012#ixzz2fA0xmTRh |
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Post by sharksrog on Sept 17, 2013 9:51:07 GMT -5
Allen- The Giants won the World Series last year largely because of Pagan's performance as a leadoff hitter. Rog -- Really? Angel hit just .188 in the postseason and .125 in the World Series. Allen -- This year, they were doing Ok when he went out, and have been playing a livelier, more engaged brand of ball since he returned. They were 32-52 while he was out. He seems to be a difference maker. Rog -- I've been wondering about that myself. Is he truly a difference maker, or was it mostly coincidence? I think the answer is probably this: Like most good players, when he is hot, he helps the Giants win, and when he's cold, he hurts them. No one player can truly carry a team, although it he is very good and there is little to replace him, he can certainly make a difference. By the way, Bleacher Reports just ranked Pagan as the #23 center fielder in the game. I would probably him just higher, but he's pretty much an average player there. Bleacher Reports did praise his base running, but pointed out he's pretty mediocre both hitting and fielding. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=2004&page=1#ixzz2fA2yVEyC |
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Post by Islandboagie on Sept 17, 2013 10:20:57 GMT -5
Allen -- This year, they were doing Ok when he went out, and have been playing a livelier, more engaged brand of ball since he returned. They were 32-52 while he was out. He seems to be a difference maker.
Rog -- I've been wondering about that myself. Is he truly a difference maker, or was it mostly coincidence?
Boagie- I don't think Angel's injury is the only reason the Giants aren't in contention, but it is one of the reasons. No question the Giants are a better team with Angel in the lineup.
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Post by dk on Sept 17, 2013 12:05:31 GMT -5
 Allen- The Giants won the World Series last year largely because of Pagan's performance as a leadoff hitter. Rog -- Really? Angel hit just .188 in the postseason and .125 in the World Series. Allen -- This year, they were doing Ok when he went out, and have been playing a livelier, more engaged brand of ball since he returned. They were 32-52 while he was out. He seems to be a difference maker. Rog -- I've been wondering about that myself. Is he truly a difference maker, or was it mostly coincidence? I think the answer is probably this: Like most good players, when he is hot, he helps the Giants win, and when he's cold, he hurts them. No one player can truly carry a team, although it he is very good and there is little to replace him, he can certainly make a difference. By the way, Bleacher Reports just ranked Pagan as the #23 center fielder in the game. I would probably him just higher, but he's pretty much an average player there. Bleacher Reports did praise his base running, but pointed out he's pretty mediocre both hitting and fielding. dk..and what did they say about Posey's fielding??? I think they must have read my posts...
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Post by allenreed on Sept 17, 2013 12:14:37 GMT -5
Allen- The Giants won the World Series last year largely because of Pagan's performance as a leadoff hitter. Rog -- Really? Angel hit just .188 in the postseason and .125 in the World Series. Allen- Perhaps I should have said "got to" instead of "won". Pagan was pretty good down the stretch last year. Once he was reinserted into the leadoff spot, he was a driving force. Rog -- I've been wondering about that myself. Is he truly a difference maker, or was it mostly coincidence? Allen- I don't think so. I think Angel brings an energy that the team was sorely lacking when he was out. He's agressive on the bases, which other than maybe Pence, no one else on this team really is. He forces the other team to make plays. He's proactive where everyone else is pretty passive. |
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Post by klaiggeb on Sept 17, 2013 13:15:55 GMT -5
Boagie- I don't think Angel's injury is the only reason the Giants aren't in contention, but it is one of the reasons. No question the Giants are a better team with Angel in the lineup.
---boly says---
Rog, I have to agree with Boagie. sorry.
I've thought about this a lot, too.
I've made it known that from my perspective, I don't think Pagan is the ideal leadoff hitter.
But he ain't bad, especially considering who Bochy ran out there when he was gone; Blanco.
We're a better team WITH Pagan in the line up because:
1-he brings tremendous energy
2-He's not Blanco, and he's our best option
There are, obviously, other reasons we're suddenly winning.
1-We're playing tons better on defense.
2-We're getting better starting pitching
3-We're finally getting more timely hitting.
boly
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Post by dk on Sept 17, 2013 14:50:02 GMT -5
Boagie- I don't think Angel's injury is the only reason the Giants aren't in contention, but it is one of the reasons. No question the Giants are a better team with Angel in the lineup. ---boly says--- Rog, I have to agree with Boagie. sorry. I've thought about this a lot, too. I've made it known that from my perspective, I don't think Pagan is the ideal leadoff hitter. But he ain't bad, especially considering who Bochy ran out there when he was gone; Blanco. We're a better team WITH Pagan in the line up because: 1-he brings tremendous energy 2-He's not Blanco, and he's our best option There are, obviously, other reasons we're suddenly winning. 1-We're playing tons better on defense. 2-We're getting better starting pitching 3-We're finally getting more timely hitting. boly[/ dk..Pagan has lots of energy by comparison to the majority of the team who appeared to have hit the "wall' some time ago...I still think Blanco is the better CF, except for his arm...and Blanco and Pence have been the hottest hitters on the team for the last month...Blanco for average, Pence for power...Pagan is right up there with the two of them.... |
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Post by allenreed on Sept 17, 2013 17:39:32 GMT -5
I'd say Blanco is the better defensive player, but he can go long streaks with almost no offensive production. Pagan is more consistent offensively.
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Post by dk on Sept 17, 2013 23:40:35 GMT -5
I'd say Blanco is the better defensive player, but he can go long streaks with almost no offensive production. Pagan is more consistent offensively. dk...I just think that if Blanco and Pagan are in the lineup together, Blanco should be the center fielder...Pagan is the better hitter and thrower, Blanco gets better jumps on balls...I don't suggest keeping Pagan out of the lineup... |
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Post by klaiggeb on Sept 18, 2013 8:44:54 GMT -5
dk...I just think that if Blanco and Pagan are in the lineup together, Blanco should be the center fielder...Pagan is the better hitter and thrower, Blanco gets better jumps on balls...I don't suggest keeping Pagan out of the lineup...
---boly says---
Don, I totally agree.
Problem is, here is where the 'ego' thing comes into play.
Blanco has better range by FAR... FAR, but NOT playing Pagan in CF, IMHO, would cause him to 'pout.'
This is the kind of situation that puts managers in a sticky situation.
He'd rather put one playe in a position, but can't because of the mental repurcussions.
Which, on the surface of things, sounds LUDICROUS! And it is!
But professional atheletes are a strange breed. Strange, strange breed.
on the one hand, so many talk "team concepts," while on the other they're more concerned about where THEY play or where THEY hit in the lineup than they should be.
That's the reason I could not be a major league manager, and why the Billy Martin/Bobby Valentine types are no longer effective.
Too darned many professionals now have to be "babied, and pampered" in order to get them to perform at their top levels.
Anyway, those are my thoughts
boly
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Post by rxmeister on Sept 18, 2013 10:07:58 GMT -5
How much you miss a player is based on two factors. It's not just the player himself, it's the quality of the player you replace him with. Matt Kemp is a superstar. When he was hurt he was replaced by Yasiel Puig, who played like a superstar, and therefore Kemp wasn't missed. This has been the problem with the Giants all year, their lack of quality depth. Angel Pagan is a good steady major league player. (Although he was all world last night!) The Giants were already weak in LF when he went down, and his injury forced them to be awful at two of the three outfield positions. This is why his loss was close to catastrophic, and his return has seen the team play much better. The same is true of the bullpen. Nobody stepped up when Santiago Casilla was injured either. His injury forced middle men to late inning relief and Fresno fodder to middle inning relief. His return has brought stability to the bullpen. A couple of weeks ago I disagreed with Boly when he used the injury excuse as explanation for this season, and I said other teams like the Dodgers have had it worse. However, on further reflection, he's right, but it's not because they lost so many key players, it's because their depth this season was terrible, and unlike other teams, there's nothing in the minor league system to come up here and bridge the gap until an injured player returns. The Giants spent all their money on the big things this past offseason. Re-signing their free agents, locking up their young core, etc. that they had nothing left for the bench. This led to too much playing time for has beens, (Torres, Francoeur) never was-es (Quiroz, Blanco, Abreu,) and kids who can't do the job. (Kickham, Kieschnick, Perez)
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Post by sharksrog on Sept 18, 2013 23:16:22 GMT -5
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Post by sharksrog on Sept 18, 2013 23:49:53 GMT -5
Boly -- Rog, I have to agree with Boagie. sorry. I've thought about this a lot, too. Rog -- There's just no way to know. The Giants have certainly played better since Angel returned (9-8), but they're not setting the world on fire, either. Much of thereason they have played well since Angel returned has been their pitching, which prior to tonight had a 3.16 ERA, compared to 4.43 in July and 4.09 in August. They have been hitting better, as well, but some of that has been due to Angel himself, who has done some of his best hitting of the season, and much as been due to Hunter Pence's going out of his mind. Angel didn't miss many games with the Giants last season, but in 2011, he missed 30 in two lumps with the Mets. The Mets went 20-16 in those games, compared to 57-69 in their others. The Mets played better without him. It will be intriguing to see how the fare with Angel the rest of the way. If they continue to get the very good pitching (even after tonight's fiasco), they'll likely continue to play well. Speaking of tonight's frustrating loss, why did Bruce Bochy bring in Sergio Romo? Santiago Casilla struggled to find the plate, so one COULD argue for bringing Romo in if the game meant something to a pennant race. But the game meant little, and Sergio had thrown 25 pitches the previous night. Don't know if it's serious, but Sergio tweaked something in the back of his thigh on the ground ball hit to short, where Brandon Crawford made a brillant play and nearly threw out the Mets runner going from 2nd to 3rd. Why risk the health of your closer when he's thrown a lot of pitches the night before? Especially in a somewhat meaningless game. I don't second-guess manager's decisions often, but even if the Giants had won, I wasn't in favor of using Sergio. He did kind of pitch as if his arm was tired, didn't he? Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=2004&page=1#ixzz2fJH7eAVK |
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Post by dk on Sept 19, 2013 0:33:00 GMT -5
dk..and what did they say about Posey's fielding??? I think they must have read my posts... Rog -- You tell me, Don. You seem to have all the answers. dk..the last few games have shown most of the poor catching by Posey that I wrote about...2 throws on steals that tailed toward right field that almost got the middle infielders hit by the runners....constant shaking off by the pitchers...2 or 3 times a pitch...why don't he take his lazy rear out to the mound and discuss how they are gong to pitch to the batter for the whole at bat...it always seems to be the pitcher talking and Posey goes back and on the following pitches the pitcher is shaking him off again.....how about the winning run coming home and Posey is 3 feet in front of the plate...and you guys don't seem to see these flaws and diss me for not liking the guy....oh, almost forgot...the pitch in the dirt. Posey jumping up and turning his head away...and another wild pitch and it set up a run. and the one that really killed me was in the Dodger series...with a runner on and the Cuban up, Posey sets the target right in the middle of the strike zone and the rook almost tore the cover off the ball.......the guy almost always swings at the first pitch....haven't the scouts told Posey this??? if not, he should listen to Scully as that is always what he talks about when the guy is up to bat..... |
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Post by allenreed on Sept 19, 2013 0:40:51 GMT -5
Angel didn't miss many games with the Giants last season, but in 2011, he missed 30 in two lumps with the Mets. The Mets went 20-16 in those games, compared to 57-69 in their others. The Mets played better without him.
Allen- This assumes that Angel is the same player now that he was then. I don't believe that to be the case. It seems to me the Giants have a certain swagger and confidence with Angel in the lineup that they don't seem to have without him.
I agree with you on using Romo in consecutive meaningless games. They seemed to know when he was going to throw his fastball and just teed off on it.
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Post by sharksrog on Sept 19, 2013 0:54:45 GMT -5
Rog -- Angel didn't miss many games with the Giants last season, but in 2011, he missed 30 in two lumps with the Mets. The Mets went 20-16 in those games, compared to 57-69 in their others. The Mets played better without him. Allen- This assumes that Angel is the same player now that he was then. I don't believe that to be the case. Rog -- We were talking about his "sparking" the team, which would seem to be more chemistry than performance. I agree that Angel is a better player now than in 2011, although I believe he had a good year or two prior to 2011. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=2004&page=1#15087#ixzz2fJbYCS89 |
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Post by sharksrog on Sept 19, 2013 0:55:35 GMT -5
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Post by rxmeister on Sept 19, 2013 6:46:53 GMT -5
I was at the game last night, and that was very disappointing, especially when their are more Giants fans than Mets fans in the house. Three run lead and Casilla walks two batters, "forcing" Bochy to bring in Romo. How about giving Heath Hembree a shot against a team starting a bunch of minor leaguers? Not with the men on base, but to start the inning. The kid hasn't given up a run yet, with a tired Romo it was the perfect spot for an easy save.
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Post by sharksrog on Sept 19, 2013 9:27:13 GMT -5
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I have to say this though: The more I think about it, the more right-on you are. It would have been a GREAT opportunity to use Hembree. A save situation, but not a tough one, despite the outcome.