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Zito
Aug 21, 2013 16:21:52 GMT -5
Post by klaiggeb on Aug 21, 2013 16:21:52 GMT -5
Bochy said Zito deserved this start?
Huh?
What did he do out of the pen that earned the right to start this game?
Nada.
Bochy and complany flat out lied.
Period.
Moscoso wasn't sufficiently rested and they didn't want the kid, Kickum, starting.
Bochy lied.
Period.
And honestly, did anyone NOT see this outting coming?
Yeah, Barry had some bad breaks behind him; some fluke hits that fell in.
But other than a few moments, they were on him.
I'm sorry, but after today's game, I give Barry his walking papers.
He doesn't deserve to be out there.
Let the kids show what they can, or can't do.
Close the book on Barry, please.
boly
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Zito
Aug 21, 2013 16:49:21 GMT -5
Post by sfgdood on Aug 21, 2013 16:49:21 GMT -5
I don't think you can say that Bochy lied per say. Did he specifiy WHY he felt Zito had earned it? It could simply be that nobody else (meaning Moscoso, Kickham and Surkamp) stepped up and earned it. It could mean that Zito has put in the work like a pro without whining or complaining. I'm not saying I believe Barrry should have started...just saying we dont know the criteria used to decide it.
By the way, I would be in favor of dumping Zito right now if not for two things...1) he deserves some slack for being such a huge part of our championship last year; and 2) we arent really in a race anymore so who really cares at this point?
~Dood
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Post by rxmeister on Aug 21, 2013 17:53:30 GMT -5
Yeah, Dood made a good point here, Boly. Zito might have earned this start in Bochy's eyes by taking the demotion to the bullpen like a man. He's been demoted before, he's been sent to the minors on a rehab assignment and then purposely kept there extra after he was ready, and the guy never said a bad word in seven years. I'll give him that, and I'd certainly spare him the embarrassment of a DFA. However, the season is over and it's time to think of 2014. He shouldn't be starting anymore in the place of someone who might be here next year. He should just stay in the bullpen and quietly finish out his final season as a Giant.
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Zito
Aug 21, 2013 21:54:29 GMT -5
Post by Islandboagie on Aug 21, 2013 21:54:29 GMT -5
Randy nailed it. The way he's conducted himself not only this season but during his whole tenure with the Giants...and of course his clutch performance against the Cards last post season. You have to let him finish out the season with some honor, and the Giants aren't in contention, plus the rosters are about to expand. The more I think about it, the more I realize there's no good reason not to keep Zito and let him get starts.
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Zito
Aug 22, 2013 10:35:24 GMT -5
Post by klaiggeb on Aug 22, 2013 10:35:24 GMT -5
Zito might have earned this start in Bochy's eyes by taking the demotion to the bullpen like a man. He's been demoted before, he's been sent to the minors on a rehab assignment and then purposely kept there extra after he was ready, and the guy never said a bad word in seven years. I'll give him that, and I'd certainly spare him the embarrassment of a DFA. However, the season is over and it's time to think of 2014. He shouldn't be starting anymore in the place of someone who might be here next year. He should just stay in the bullpen and quietly finish out his final season as a Giant.
---boly says---
You make a solid point, Mark, and one I'd never thought of.
I am so focused on "next" year, and preparing for that, that I never considered that Bochy, a people person (which I think is a good thing), wanted to give him one, let's call it a "fair well" start; a thank you, of sorts, for, as you say, last year.
He's been a stand up guy, that's for sure.
But your final point is also good; the race, for us, is over.
For me, and the rest of us, too, this nightmare-of-a-season can't be over soon enough.
Thanks for adding some logic to my sloppy thinking.
boly
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Post by rxmeister on Aug 22, 2013 10:44:38 GMT -5
Boagie, I don't care how much you respect Zito, you can't send him out there every five days when you have so many questions about next year. Give the starts to Surkamp, Kickham or even Moscoso. You really need to find out about those guys.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Zito
Aug 22, 2013 10:54:02 GMT -5
Post by sfgdood on Aug 22, 2013 10:54:02 GMT -5
One thing I can tell you about Moscoso...he rivals Denny Bautista for the title of uglist Giant in recent years.
Eugenio Velez is undoubtedly the cheesiest...but the cat has a ring! Then again so do the ushers so what does that really mean anymore?
~Dood
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Zito
Aug 22, 2013 11:56:32 GMT -5
Post by allenreed on Aug 22, 2013 11:56:32 GMT -5
Moscoso is right up there. Pablo isn't far behind. What's he thinking with that haircut? Crawford's a pretty good looking guy, but that beard has got to go, and get a haircut. Arias. You're making a big league salary and you can't afford to get some dental work done? Other than that, not a bad looking group.
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Zito
Aug 22, 2013 12:33:13 GMT -5
Post by Islandboagie on Aug 22, 2013 12:33:13 GMT -5
Mark- Boagie, I don't care how much you respect Zito, you can't send him out there every five days when you have so many questions about next year. Give the starts to Surkamp, Kickham or even Moscoso. You really need to find out about those guys.
Boagie- First and foremost, Mark, I'd go to a 6 man rotation for the rest of the way, so I wouldn't be sending anyone out there every 5th day. I like to give our guys a chance, but if we end up with Surkamp, Kickham or Moscoso as our #5 for next season, we're in a heap load of shit. Kickham has been terrible. Surkamp's career ERA is above 7.00. Moscoso has walked 12 in 17 innings. I don't need to see any more. What I do need to see is Sabean get busy this off season finding pitchers not named Surkamp, Kickham and Moscoso to retool Fresno so we don't need to see this crap next year if a pitcher of ours goes down with an injury. If its up to me, those 3 have as much future with the Giants as Barry Zito. The ONLY thing that separates these guys is one of them pitched one of the biggest games in Giants history, I choose to respect that over letting 3 guys showcase themselves out of baseball.
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Zito
Aug 22, 2013 13:18:47 GMT -5
Post by allenreed on Aug 22, 2013 13:18:47 GMT -5
I don't see giving Zito another start. Why? We're not going to bring him back, At least I hope not. I wouldn't mind giving Surkamp another chance, but I don't see kickham. He's just not ready to pitch at this level. Why shatter his confidence? I don't see the discounting of Gaudin as a fifth starter possibility. or even probablility. As a starter he's 5-2, 3.53. In nine of 12 starts he's given up two runs or less, and in seven has given up one run or less. He's really only had two bad starts. What more does the guy have to do?
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Zito
Aug 22, 2013 13:42:12 GMT -5
Post by sfgdood on Aug 22, 2013 13:42:12 GMT -5
Chad's track record as a full time starter is not good. That tells me one of two things...his stuff breaks down the more starts he gets or he just isnt mentally capable of doing it for a full season. Maybe both. Better suited for long relief/spot starts.
~Dood
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Zito
Aug 22, 2013 14:40:59 GMT -5
Post by allenreed on Aug 22, 2013 14:40:59 GMT -5
Until this year, he hadn't started since 2009, and hadn't had a full season as a starter since 2007. Does that have alot of relevance in 2014? Besides that, he's never started for a good club, other than the 2009 Yankees, where he was 2-0, 3.43. We gave Gaudin a chance at the job, he's performed very well. I don't know how you can do anything but give him the 5th starter job if he's healthy. Would you rather bring Zito back? Kickham?
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Post by rxmeister on Aug 22, 2013 14:58:16 GMT -5
Boagie, you're not just looking at them as possible rotation answers, you're also looking at relievers as well. I don't see Kickham as being ready, and I don't think Moscoso is very good, but they could be possibilities as long relievers. Surkamp is a possibility though, he's been excellent at Fresno, with a 2.75 ERA and 41 K's in 55 innings. And for Allen's benefit, he's 6-1! And you need options going into next season as well. You can't just have five starters, someone can and will get hurt. Looking at Zito is a waste of time.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Zito
Aug 22, 2013 18:33:36 GMT -5
Post by sfgdood on Aug 22, 2013 18:33:36 GMT -5
Until this year, he hadn't started since 2009, and hadn't had a full season as a starter since 2007. Does that have alot of relevance in 2014?
Dood - The fact that he hasnt had a full season as a starter for any team since 2007 is a relevant fact, IMO. Everyone else sees what he did as a full time starter and they are reluctant to give him another chance...I can totally understand that. Put him where he has had success over a full season before.
Besides that, he's never started for a good club, other than the 2009 Yankees, where he was 2-0, 3.43.
Dood - again...in a limited sample, not a full season.
We gave Gaudin a chance at the job, he's performed very well. I don't know how you can do anything but give him the 5th starter job if he's healthy. Would you rather bring Zito back? Kickham?
Dood - none of the above.
~Dood
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Post by rxmeister on Aug 22, 2013 20:56:04 GMT -5
Bochy announced tonight that Zito will be making his next start. Not only that, Kickham was sent back to Fresno and Andres Torres was put on the DL, probably done for the season. Noonan was recalled, and sorry Dood, so was Frankie Peguero. Oh yeah, that Zito start is in Coors. Just the place where you want a pitcher who has been horrible on the road to be pitching.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Zito
Aug 22, 2013 21:14:58 GMT -5
Post by sfgdood on Aug 22, 2013 21:14:58 GMT -5
I'd rather see Peguero than Torres any day. Dont feel bad for me. I could be wrong but doesn't Zito have good lifetime numbers at Coors? I recall he pitched a shutout there one time.
~Dood
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Post by rxmeister on Aug 23, 2013 8:09:59 GMT -5
You're right about Zito pitching well at Coors, but THIS season, his season of 9.45 road ERA, he is 0-2 with 9 earned runs and 21 hits allowed in 11 innings. I guess that's good for him, because that's less than 9.45. It's only a minuscule 7.27!
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Zito
Aug 23, 2013 8:41:34 GMT -5
Post by sharksrog on Aug 23, 2013 8:41:34 GMT -5
Boly -- Bochy said Zito deserved this start?
Huh?
Rog -- I think Bruce felt Barry deserved a farewell start to cap off his seven years with the Giants. If the Giants were in the race, I would disagree.
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Zito
Aug 23, 2013 8:42:58 GMT -5
Post by sharksrog on Aug 23, 2013 8:42:58 GMT -5
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Zito
Aug 23, 2013 8:47:12 GMT -5
Post by sharksrog on Aug 23, 2013 8:47:12 GMT -5
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Zito
Aug 23, 2013 8:53:45 GMT -5
Post by sharksrog on Aug 23, 2013 8:53:45 GMT -5
Mark -- Bochy announced tonight that Zito will be making his next start. Rog -- That one I'm not so cool about. On the other hand, I think the Giants know what they have in Moscoso (rubber arm that is designed for long relief), Kickham (needs significant improvement -- REALLY significant), and Surkamp (nice candidate for long relief next season). How about a bullpen game between Moscoso and Surkamp? Looking at these guys though, does it seem likely that any of them are likely to matter much? Does it really matter that much who starts until Gaudin returns? Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1972&page=1#ixzz2cnevfYGn
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Zito
Aug 23, 2013 8:58:48 GMT -5
Post by sharksrog on Aug 23, 2013 8:58:48 GMT -5
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Zito
Aug 23, 2013 9:30:34 GMT -5
Post by sharksrog on Aug 23, 2013 9:30:34 GMT -5
Looking more closely at Eric Surkamp, he's had one bad start for Fresno in which he gave up 6 runs in 4.2 innings. In his other nine starts, he's yielded two runs or fewer. He's in rotation where he could easily take Zito's spot.
I am glad Barry got a final start, but I believe it should indeed have been his final start.
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