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Post by klaiggeb on Aug 21, 2013 16:17:08 GMT -5
Brandon Belt may have a world of talent, but when it comes to baseball smarts? Baseball instincts?
Sorry, but his glass ain't full.
I've made the comparison of Belt and Marv Throneberry before, and the fact that Brandon is a better defender than Marv ever was... the mental comparison FITS!
It flat out fits!!!
Twice in today's game we saw perfect examples.
He charged a bunt he had no need to charge... and then couldn't get his feet right to get back to the bag in time.
Yeah, the umpire blew the call, but it shouldn't have been that close!
Here we are in August, and he and Pence ONCE AGAIN, can't figure out who has the routine pop fly?
That's little league nonsense!
We've seen him make bone headed plays on the bases time and time again.
We've seen him play off the line... and NOT knowing/remembering where he is... and BREAK on a ball hit to his right, only to fail to get back to the bag in time to get an out.
Good firstbasemen don't, they simply DON'T make the quantity of boneheaded, head up your fanny, in a daze nonsense that we continually see from Belt.
His soft hands, and improving eye at the plate are good things.
But the other crap we continue to see!
If I'm Bochy and the coaches, I'm climbing the wall with his antics!
Sheesh!
boly
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Post by sharksrog on Aug 23, 2013 9:14:23 GMT -5
Brandon has made plenty of mistakes, but I think the larger point is that he's hitting.
Brandon needs to be much more consistent, but when he's right, he's very good.
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Post by klaiggeb on Aug 23, 2013 13:12:02 GMT -5
Brandon has made plenty of mistakes, but I think the larger point is that he's hitting.
Brandon needs to be much more consistent, but when he's right, he's very good.
---boly says----
Really? I'm not sure I agree. Note I said, "not sure."
Yes, he's hitting. NO question he's found himself.
But his other screw ups... Rog, there are just too many.
Everyone makes mistakes. Even Posey, whom I think has THE best baseball instincts I've seen in years in a Giant uniform.
Brandon would be Posey's direct opposite.
He just seems to go completely brain dead at times; too many times, and thus, my mental comparison with Marvelous Marv.
I mean, Rog... it's on the bases, throwing the ball, fielding ground balls... knowing where he is on the field... communication on pop flies...
That's little league stuff he's screwing up.
Too many Brain dead moments.
I can't think of any other way to explain it.
boly
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Post by sharksrog on Aug 24, 2013 9:01:43 GMT -5
As a coach, we try to improve all that stuff. As a fan, we pretty much have to take a player as he is or we hope he will be.
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Post by klaiggeb on Aug 24, 2013 10:14:23 GMT -5
As a coach, we try to improve all that stuff. As a fan, we pretty much have to take a player as he is or we hope he will be.
---boly says---
Rog, if we're talking high school, or college, we can expect incompetent stuff.
At the major league level?
Some/most of Belt's screw ups shouldn't have happened. They were stuff he SHOULD have learned in Pony League, High School, College.
But baseball instincts... I'm not sure they can be "taught" at the major league level.
They are something developed from a very, very young age.
boly
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Post by sharksrog on Aug 26, 2013 9:57:38 GMT -5
Boly -- Rog, if we're talking high school, or college, we can expect incompetent stuff. At the major league level? Rog -- I completely agree with you on the mental errors. But I'll still take him. Allen is right that Pablo should keep himself in better condition. But I'll still take him. Allen is right that Tim Lincecum is a different pitcher now than two years ago, but I'll still take him (depending on the price, which will be high for any decent starting pitcher. Matt Cain and Ryan Vogelsong have had down seasons, but I'll still take them. Hunter Pence gives us one of the biggest love/hate situations we've had in years, but I'll still take him (and I think the Giants can lock him up a little below market value). Javier Lopez is only a LOOGY, but he's one of the best at that, and I'll still take him. Joaquin Arias is streaky, but I'll still take him. Etc., etc., etc. So with all these players I'd still take, why are the Giants so lousy this year? It's this simple: They're a good team. When everyone plays well, they're right up there with the best of 'em. When most have an off-season, they're not even a .500 team. That's a big part of the reason it's so tough to predict teams before the season starts. Which team will show up? We can make reasonable assumptions, but who can really tell? Marco Scutaro seemed an obvious pick to decline this season. Last season he played his best ball, but at age 36. How can a player not decline from THAT? Yet despite a horrible finger injury, his .298 is right there with his career-high .306 of last season, and the .299 he hit the year before that. These are the top three seasons of his career -- and he's 36! On the other side, who could have predicted a bad season from Matt (The Horse) Cain? Who could have predicted the rash of injuries? Back to Brandon Belt -- arguably the streakiest of all Giants -- I'll still take him. He makes foolish mistakes, he's extremely frustrating, and he appears to be under-achieving his potential. But I'll still take him -- warts and all. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1971&page=1#14271#ixzz2d5Qu0HjJ
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Post by klaiggeb on Aug 26, 2013 13:30:22 GMT -5
Back to Brandon Belt -- arguably the streakiest of all Giants -- I'll still take him. He makes foolish mistakes, he's extremely frustrating, and he appears to be under-achieving his potential.
But I'll still take him -- warts and all.
---boly says---
I'm not ready to cut him loose, Rog, I'm simply stating one fact:
He should NOT be making these mistakes as often as he does at the major league level.
Period.
boly
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Aug 26, 2013 13:59:17 GMT -5
Back to Brandon Belt -- arguably the streakiest of all Giants -- I'll still take him. He makes foolish mistakes, he's extremely frustrating, and he appears to be under-achieving his potential.
But I'll still take him -- warts and all.
Dood - it's beyond just foolish mistakes. He has lapses in concentration that are simply not acceptable for a veteran player--even a young veteran player. Will I still take him? Yes but his act is getting tired fast. If I were in Brian Sabean's leather swivel chair, I would view 2014 as a make or break for Belt. In order for me to continue to put up with this kind of chronic brain flattulance, Belt would need to fulfill his promise and step up into the elite level offensively among first baseman for a full year...900+ OPS and 90+ RBI. I'll accept less if and ONLY if, Belt can keep his head into the freakin games.
~Dood
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Post by allenreed on Aug 26, 2013 15:31:12 GMT -5
Dood - it's beyond just foolish mistakes. He has lapses in concentration that are simply not acceptable for a veteran player--even a young veteran player.
Allen- You mean like Tim Lincecum failing to hold runners on or back up bases?
Will I still take him? Yes but his act is getting tired fast.
Allen- Yes, his .341 BA, and 1.084 OPS in August is really starting to work my nerves. Obviously the Giants are concerned, as they've moved Belt to the third spot in the order, a spot usually reserved for your best hitter.
If I were in Brian Sabean's leather swivel chair, I would view 2014 as a make or break for Belt. In order for me to continue to put up with this kind of chronic brain flattulance, Belt would need to fulfill his promise and step up into the elite level offensively among first baseman for a full year...900+ OPS and 90+ RBI. I'll accept less if and ONLY if, Belt can keep his head into the freakin games.
Allen- That would cover two names. Chris Davis and Paul Goldschmidt. Certainly elite, at least this year. If I were Brian, I'd be pretty happy that Brandon seems to have finally found himself at the plate. Alot has been made about him changing his grip, and maybe that will indeed lead to increased, sustained success. If I were to give him anything to work on, it would be to try to cut down on his strikeouts. Not to be an apologist (I'll leave that to Rog),but didn't Brandon start playing baseball somewhat later than most MLers? It seems I remember something about that. Interesting that you're constantly harping about not giving up on Pablo at 27, but you're ready to throw Belt overboard at 25.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Aug 26, 2013 16:00:23 GMT -5
Dood - it's beyond just foolish mistakes. He has lapses in concentration that are simply not acceptable for a veteran player--even a young veteran player.
Allen- You mean like Tim Lincecum failing to hold runners on or back up bases?
Dood - I was bothered more about not backing up bases. Lots of great pitchers were terrible about holding runners on but failure to back up or cover 1st shows you're mentally not in the game...like Belt.
Will I still take him? Yes but his act is getting tired fast.
Allen- Yes, his .341 BA, and 1.084 OPS in August is really starting to work my nerves. Obviously the Giants are concerned, as they've moved Belt to the third spot in the order, a spot usually reserved for your best hitter.
Dood - the way the offense was going they pretty much had no choice, especially since Posey was scuffling at the time. Doesn't mean he's going to stay there but he's certainly been as hot as anyone. Pitchers are adjusing now, though. His power is not what it was to begin the hot streak.
Not to be an apologist (I'll leave that to Rog),but didn't Brandon start playing baseball somewhat later than most MLers? It seems I remember something about that.
Dood - wouldnt surprise me...Texas is football territory.
Interesting that you're constantly harping about not giving up on Pablo at 27, but you're ready to throw Belt overboard at 25.
Dood - if Pablo mentally checked out during games, I would be on him as well. But I havent seen any evidence of it. But of course, Pablo gets more rope because he has put together full seasons of excellence. Two All Star appearances and a World Series MVP helps too. Belt has some catching up to do. Besides, I'm not saying dump him right freaking now...I'll give him a year to show me something.
~Dood
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Post by allenreed on Aug 26, 2013 17:07:57 GMT -5
He's put together one full season (four years ago). Swinging at pitches in the dirt or a foot out of the strike zone isn't mentally checking out? Gaining alot of weight during the season isn't mentally checking out? Bochy named him to the AS team once when he hadn't played enough to deserve it. Belt has taken a little longer to get traction than I thought it would, but I don't think anyone thought we were getting Lou Gehrig here. As for his cooling off a bit power wise, could that be because the Giants are playing at home now, when earlier in the month he was hitting for more power on the road?
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Aug 26, 2013 18:47:38 GMT -5
Swinging at pitches in the dirt or a foot out of the strike zone isn't mentally checking out?
Dood - nope, that's called being fooled by a pitch. It happens even to the best hitters.
Gaining alot of weight during the season isn't mentally checking out?
Dood - no, that's called overeating. It happens outside of the game. I'm talking about losing focus ON the field.
Bochy named him to the AS team once when he hadn't played enough to deserve it.
Dood - he got hosed by Charlie Manuel before when he DID deserve to go, so I figure the number is right.
Belt has taken a little longer to get traction than I thought it would, but I don't think anyone thought we were getting Lou Gehrig here. As for his cooling off a bit power wise, could that be because the Giants are playing at home now, when earlier in the month he was hitting for more power on the road?
Dood - That might be part of it, but he's still getting base hits so I'm not too worried about it. It's an adjustment deal.
~Dood
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Post by allenreed on Aug 26, 2013 21:01:34 GMT -5
Swinging at pitches in the dirt or a foot out of the strike zone isn't mentally checking out? Dood - nope, that's called being fooled by a pitch. It happens even to the best hitters. Allen- Not that often. That's called not focusing. Gaining alot of weight during the season isn't mentally checking out? Dood - no, that's called overeating. It happens outside of the game. I'm talking about losing focus ON the field. Allen- That's called not taking your job seriously or focusing on the job at hand. Bochy named him to the AS team once when he hadn't played enough to deserve it. Dood - he got hosed by Charlie Manuel before when he DID deserve to go, so I figure the number is right. Belt has taken a little longer to get traction than I thought it would, but I don't think anyone thought we were getting Lou Gehrig here. As for his cooling off a bit power wise, could that be because the Giants are playing at home now, when earlier in the month he was hitting for more power on the road? Dood - That might be part of it, but he's still getting base hits so I'm not too worried about it. It's an adjustment deal. Allen- As would be not swinging at pitches outside the zone, no?
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Aug 26, 2013 21:36:26 GMT -5
Dood - no, that's called overeating. It happens outside of the game. I'm talking about losing focus ON the field.
Allen- That's called not taking your job seriously or focusing on the job at hand.
Dood - that's your opinion. If the contract doesn't have a specific playing weight outlined then it's definitely a grey area. But not being ready mentally for a game situation is pretty much black and white.
Dood - That might be part of it, but he's still getting base hits so I'm not too worried about it. It's an adjustment deal.
Allen- As would be not swinging at pitches outside the zone, no?
Dood - not necessarily. Some hitters can hit pitches outside of the strike zone. I think each player has his own hitting zone that he needs to stay in. Sandoval has made many a pitcher shake his head after beating a pitch that was out of the zone. As a rule if you're going to pitch Pablo low, you'd better bounce it because if not, he can hit it. Now, up high, he definitely struggles more...
~Dood
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Post by allenreed on Aug 27, 2013 11:08:16 GMT -5
Also as made the manager shake his head many times after swinging at a pitch that was ball four and that he couldn't reach with a ten foot pole.
Being overweight is simply not being physically ready to do your job optimally. Not much different than showing up drunk or high, really.
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Post by sharksrog on Aug 27, 2013 11:12:30 GMT -5
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Post by sharksrog on Aug 27, 2013 11:37:29 GMT -5
Dood - the way the offense was going they pretty much had no choice, especially since Posey was scuffling at the time. Doesn't mean he's going to stay there but he's certainly been as hot as anyone. Pitchers are adjusing now, though. His power is not what it was to begin the hot streak. Rog -- It would be darn hard for Brandon to stay as hot as he was for two weeks or so. As you point out, pitchers do adjust. Many have likely forgotten it, but last season Brandon has OPS of .887 and .881 in August and September. Since April this season, Brandon's OPS is .871. No question Brandon is streaky, but he's also a pretty good hitter. This won't be popular here, but I would bat him 2nd. I'd go with: Scutaro Belt Posey Pence Sandoval Crawford Blanco Platoon That lineup would get a lot of runners on base for Pence and Sandoval. I realize Belt isn't the traditional #2 hitter, but look throughout the league, and you will see that stronger hitters are batting #2. In great part, that's because those guys get on base for the big boys. One thing I recall about batting order makeup is that statistics have shown that a team's best hitter should bat 2nd, 3rd or 4th. One could argue that Brandon is somewhere between the Giants' 2nd-best hitter and their 4th-best. As such, he should probably be hitting between 2nd and 5th. Since he gets on base a lot, 2nd seems a very nice spot. Brandon certainly doesn't handle the bat like the traditional #2 hitter, but he also doesn't hit into double plays. The Giants' other four top hitters -- Posey, Scutaro, Pence and Sandoval -- have each hit into more double plays THIS SEASON than Brandon has hit into over his entire career (1134 plate appearances). He's far from traditional, but Brandon Belt would make a very effective #2 hitter. If the Giants got a runner on base ahead of him with fewer than two outs, the WORST they could hope for when the #3 hitter came up would almost always be one runner still on base. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1971&page=1#ixzz2dBdRLkog
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Post by sharksrog on Aug 27, 2013 11:44:38 GMT -5
Allen -- Interesting that you're constantly harping about not giving up on Pablo at 27, but you're ready to throw Belt overboard at 25. Rog -- Don will like this one, but if all three are Giants in say five seasons, Buster Posey may become the Giants' third baseman, leaving first base to either Belt or Sandoval. It is also possible Buster might become a first baseman then. Either way, Brandon's future may be tied at least in part to Pablo's. If the Giants don't think Brandon is their first baseman of the future, they should probably trade him (assuming he continues to play well the rest of the season). With his being under team control for four more seasons, his trade value would seem to be high. On the other hand, if the Giants DO think he's their first baseman of the future, they won't even have to (figuratively) pay him until the 2015 season. Belt is the type of player teams would like to trade for. Any season before a player becomes arbitration-eligible can make him a HUGE value. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1971&page=1#ixzz2dBk4JLpy
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Post by sharksrog on Aug 27, 2013 11:46:49 GMT -5
Allen -- Not to be an apologist (I'll leave that to Rog),but didn't Brandon start playing baseball somewhat later than most MLers? It seems I remember something about that. Dood - wouldnt surprise me...Texas is football territory. Rog -- I'm not sure whether Brandon played baseball early or not, but I believe he didn't become a first baseman until late. In high school and perhaps even in his first year of college, he was primarily a pitcher who also played the outfield. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1971&page=1#ixzz2dBlWKH6W
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Post by dk on Aug 27, 2013 12:02:28 GMT -5
Allen -- Interesting that you're constantly harping about not giving up on Pablo at 27, but you're ready to throw Belt overboard at 25. Rog -- Don will like this one, but if all three are Giants in say five seasons, Buster Posey may become the Giants' third baseman, leaving first base to either Belt or Sandoval. It is also possible Buster might become a first baseman then. Either way, Brandon's future may be tied at least in part to Pablo's. dk..3 years is too long to wait. Posey is slower than Bengie in his prime, what do you think he will be like in 3 years....
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Post by allenreed on Aug 27, 2013 12:10:34 GMT -5
More than likely one of the top catchers in the game. Much like he is now.
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Post by sharksrog on Aug 27, 2013 12:34:53 GMT -5
dk..3 years is too long to wait. Posey is slower than Bengie in his prime, what do you think he will be like in 3 years.... Rog -- Echoing Allen, Buster is considered by many if not most to be the best catcher in the game today. In three years, that could easliy still be the case. If anything, with both Molina and Mauer aging, while Buster should still be in his prime, the difference may be greater. There really isn't much reason to pay attention to what Don says about Buster. In that area, Don's opinion is really skewed. By the way, I'm not sure that I agreed, but in its 2nd-half preview, Sports Illustrated called Buster baseball's most indespensible player. He would likely at least be on the short list though. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1971&page=1#14362#ixzz2dBwZ9SqH
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Post by sharksrog on Aug 27, 2013 12:39:00 GMT -5
Here's an intriguing hypothetical for you:
Based on their respective levels of performance, a team made up of a pitching staff of the 2009 version of Jonathan Sanchez and an everyday lineup made up of this season's Buster Posey's and Brandon Belts would win a LOT of games. It would have a pretty good chance of leading baseball in wins.
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Post by Islandboagie on Aug 27, 2013 15:03:23 GMT -5
I would win a lot of games if I had an offense of 4 Buster Posey's backing me up.
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Post by allenreed on Aug 27, 2013 15:31:50 GMT -5
Don't know about that, Rog. The Belt's are prone to long slumps with alot of Ks, the Posey's have an occasional long period of non-productivity as well, though not nearly as frequently as Belt. Your pitching is going to have an ERA over 5.00 going into July, and an ERA of 4.8 going into August. Plus with the frequent short outings, you're going to beat the hell out of your pen.
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Post by rxmeister on Aug 28, 2013 7:13:35 GMT -5
4-5 last night and the out was louder than the hits. Unless you're Miguel Cabrera, all players have slumps, Allen, and this recent hot streak seems to be lasting longer than any previous one. Maybe this is a case of a young player finally finding himself. He's finally hitting in the middle of the order where he can't be pitched around, instead of the bottom
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Post by allenreed on Aug 28, 2013 10:23:47 GMT -5
I sure wasn't getting on Brandon, just pointing out the fallacy of Rog's argument. Belt is probably my favorite among the current Giants. Maybe there's something to the "changing the grip" thing. Hope so.
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Post by Islandboagie on Aug 28, 2013 11:58:26 GMT -5
I don't mean to be a negative Nancy, but how is this year any different than the last two? In 2011 Brandon seemed like he started to figure it out. Then for most of 2012 he looked lost again until the end when he started to work his average up, but showed a lack of power. Then this spring he tore it up and everyone was all excited until he looked terrible in the bay bridge exhibition series and continued into the season. I hate to think this, but it seems as if Belt only decides to hit when the games don't matter. I'd like to be wrong here because what Brandon has done since his 3 day rest I would LOVE to see all season long. The Brandon we see now is the perfect #3 hitter. He's got power, speed, a good eye..ect. Unfortunately the Brandon we see most of the time is a Brandon who doesn't look like he even belongs at the major league level.
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Post by allenreed on Aug 28, 2013 13:16:45 GMT -5
Well, it's different than 2011 ihat he's hitting about 50 points higher. He has over twice as many homers as he had all of last year. That's two rather large differences.
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Post by sharksrog on Aug 28, 2013 14:31:29 GMT -5
Allen -- Don't know about that, Rog. The Belt's are prone to long slumps with alot of Ks, the Posey's have an occasional long period of non-productivity as well, though not nearly as frequently as Belt. Your pitching is going to have an ERA over 5.00 going into July, and an ERA of 4.8 going into August. Plus with the frequent short outings, you're going to beat the hell out of your pen. Rog -- You're right about the streakiness of each player (especially Brandon, obviously). Not sure where the ERA figures came from though. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1971&page=1#14390#ixzz2dIHhXyKw
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