|
|
Post by Islandboagie on Aug 19, 2013 11:49:33 GMT -5
I think what we've learned this season is Santiago Casilla is highly underrated. When he went down for that extended period our bullpen completely fell apart. He will be back next year.
Romo did a nice job as being the closer in his first year holding that role. Unfortunately the Giants rarely led after 8 innings. He will be back.
Affeldt had one of his injury plagued seasons, much like in 2010. The good thing is Affeldt has been good at putting those seasons behind him and coming back strong. He too will be back.
Jose Mijares will also be back. He's in an arbitration year so the Giants will have to pay him a million or two more.
The big question mark will be if the Giants can keep Lopez. If the Giants want to compete they need Lopez or someone like him. I'm sure the Giants want to keep Lopez but I don't know if they're ready to give him what he wants. There will be plenty of teams who will seek Lopez for their pen if he hits the market, I'm sure Lopez and his agent know this.
Do we give up on George Kontos? Is he another Runzler? Kontos has great stuff to be a set-up guy, but this year was disappointing to say the least. I'm not quite sure what happened to Kontos, his control was good and his strikeout ratio was fine he just got knocked around. We have many self-proclaimed pitching experts here, anyone care to elaborate on what was wrong with Kontos?
Chad Gaudin is a free agent if I'm correct? I think the Giants fully intend to bring him back whether its as a 5th starter or as long relief will be proven over time. I like him as long relief.
That makes 7.
I have to acknowledge the jobs Dunning and Rosario have done, they've pitched very nice out of the pen, but I don't think they have won spots for next season.
If I'm the Giants I go with 13 pitchers next season. We don't need a 5th outfielder. Blanco is a solid 4th and Arias can play the outfield in a pinch.
I said Room has done a nice job, and he has..but, he's not at that elite level he was as a setup guy. Furthermore our bullpen has gotten weaker because Casilla took over that role now that Room is closing. Casilla also has been good. But, those 6th and 7th inning rallies by the other team where Casilla used to be used frequently, are what's killing us. We need Casilla and Room back in those roles and we need to bring in a closer.
Sabean's goal this off season (besides signing Lincecum, Pence and Lopez) is to finagle Steve Cishek from the Marlins.
|
|
|
|
Post by Islandboagie on Aug 19, 2013 11:53:39 GMT -5
Sorry for the misspelling, my phone keeps auto correcting Romo to Room.
|
|
|
|
Post by rxmeister on Aug 19, 2013 12:38:08 GMT -5
I did a post on the bullpen in another thread, so I don't want to repeat myself. I fully expect Lopez to return, because even though there will be a high demand for his services, he's still a 36 year old lefty specialist, and nobody overpays for that type of talent like Brian Sabean does. While I like both Casilla and Affeldt, they are both greatly overpaid. You say Romo is not an elite closer, so I have to reference you back to last year's post season. I think people like their closers to throw 100 mph, but Romo is as good as any of them. We also differ on Casilla. You say the Giants struggled during his absence because he's so good, I say they struggled because his replacements were so bad. They need a deeper bullpen. He's good, but pretty average as an eighth inning guy. I would love for him to be supplanted by Heath Hembree next year. As a seventh inning combo with Affeldt, Casilla would be put to his best use.
|
|
sfgdood
Long time member 
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
|
Post by sfgdood on Aug 19, 2013 13:34:51 GMT -5
I've said it all along...Vogelsong's injury was a bigger hit to the bullpen than it was to the rotation. Especially since it closely coincided with Casilla's injury. There have been so many more blown late leads this year than I can remember in lots of years. I agree with Rx that the pen needs to be upgraded but I have my doubts about Hembree and Brett Bochy. Both took two steps backward this year. Dunning, Macchi and Rosales were all pretty mediocre. A return of the 2012 Kontos would be a big help...and it may be more bendeficial to the team to pick up a starting pitcher and put Goudin back in the bullpen. The last thing the Giants need to do is go cheap on pitching though, even in the bullpen...FA hitters wont be coming here so we need to tighten up the pitching staff all the way around.
~Dood
|
|
|
|
Post by allenreed on Aug 19, 2013 15:13:55 GMT -5
I think Rosario did fine. These end of the pen guys aren't always going to be razor sharp. Even Moscoso has been acceptable in the role he's been given. Dunning needs more seasoning, (and a good meal or ten) but he could develop.
|
|
|
|
Post by Islandboagie on Aug 19, 2013 19:06:53 GMT -5
Randy, I think Cain, Zito and at times Lincecum's lack of going deep into ball games was the biggest hit to the bullpen. Gaudin did a good job at eating innings with quality starts.
Allen, I'd be up for seeing what Dunning, Rosario and Moscoso could do if we were a young team not expected to contend in 2014. Unfortunately we don't have that luxury. We need to revamp those 6 and 7th inning guys so we can contend next year. I question whether Hembree even has the head for it.
|
|
|
|
Post by rxmeister on Aug 19, 2013 19:39:45 GMT -5
Heath Hembree has 29 saves for Fresno and a 60-15 K-BB rate in 50 innings. His ERA isn't great, at 3.91, but that's not terrible for the PCL either. Besides ERA is a deceptive stat for a reliever. A handful of bad outings can blow that up. What exactly about those numbers qualifies as "a step backwards," and if Hembree has taken a step backward, why do you continue to call for Gary Brown's recall when he's taken a Bob Beamon sized leap backwards?
|
|
sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
|
Post by sfgdood on Aug 19, 2013 22:34:48 GMT -5
While I agree that generally ERA isnt a great indicator for closers...in the minors it can be a better indicator of dominance. This is especially true when you have a huge jump in ERA from one year to the next. Hembree's ERA in 2011, in San Jose and Richmond combined, was 1.78. That year he gave up 36 hits while striking out 78 in 52 innings pitched. Last year Heath had an ERA of 4.19 and struck out 43 in 43 innings at Fresno. A clear decline in both strikeout ratio and ERA. This year his control is better but his strikeout/IP is still not up to his dominant years. Heath is a decent relief prospect whereas in 2011 he was considered a can't miss star on the rise.
One of the main reasons Heath has become less dominant is that he hurt his elbow last year and his stuff is nowhere near what it was in 2011. If he was still throwing gas and blowing hitters away I would be singing his praises just as much as Gary Brown, especially with the help we've needed in the bullpen. Gary still has all his skills, which is why I havent given up on him like you all have.
~Dood
|
|
|
|
Post by Islandboagie on Aug 20, 2013 9:41:52 GMT -5
Brown has lost some ability too, his ability to hit the ball. Of the two, Hembree has at least put up numbers that could warrant a call up, Brown hasn't.
|
|
|
|
Post by rxmeister on Aug 20, 2013 9:54:49 GMT -5
You say Hembree's K ratio has gone down, but how is 60 in 50 innings not an improvement over 43 in 43 innings? And even you admitted his control has gotten better. Also, you're comparing his AAA numbers to lower minor numbers. Don't you expect a decrease as the competition gets tougher? And he's in a hitters league as well. He picked up his 30th save last night, and has only given up one run in his last dozen outings. Isn't that the improvement you want to see from the minor league kids? That's why he deserves a promotion, and will get one on September 1. Gary Brown, on the other hand, put up another 0 for 4. He's now down to .230, while Peguero had another two hit night. I just don't see how you think Gary Brown would be well served to come up here and hit lefties like Jon Lester when he can't hit AAA pitching.
|
|
sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
|
Post by sfgdood on Aug 20, 2013 11:35:51 GMT -5
The CAL League is every bit the hitters league by reputation that the PCL is. Hembree's numbers there were eye-splitting. His stuff was beyond electric and nobody could touch him. Yes he is definitely making improvements over 2012 and I never said he doesn't "deserve" a September callup...even though that term to me has no meaning in a business that isn't about fairness. I merely point out that Heath's days of utter dominance seem to have left after the elbow trouble.
His control needed to get better with his stuff gone now, so I'm happy he made that improvement. As I said before, he could devlop into a solid setup guy. Then again he could be a right handed Runzler too. I was a lot more excited about the guy that walked more guys but allowed fewer hits and struck out WAY more. I'm not all that excited about THIS Heath Hembree.
~Dood
|
|
|
|
Post by rxmeister on Aug 20, 2013 21:25:30 GMT -5
Pretty sure he's coming up September 1, so I guess we'll find out which Heath Hembree we're getting. I don't see any problems with his K numbers this year, they're excellent.
|
|
sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
|
Post by sfgdood on Aug 21, 2013 1:41:29 GMT -5
I don't see a problem either. I keep saying in this very thread Heath's got a chance to be a decent reliever. I'm just saying the mind-blowing fastball and stats are in the past.
~Dood
|
|
|
|
Post by rxmeister on Aug 21, 2013 8:01:37 GMT -5
Dood, his velocity dropped after the injury, but I heard he's back in the high nineties this year. I'll guess we'll find out. Just read an interesting stat though, which is probably the reason you want to see a power arm so badly. The Giants are last in the major leagues with a fastball average velocity of 89.9 mph, obviously the only team under 90. Of course Zito doesn't help that number, but still it shows the overall lack of velocity from Giants pitchers. The hardest thrower they have this year is Jean Machi, who averages about 93 mph, but who unfortunately isn't very good.
|
|
|
|
Post by sharksrog on Aug 21, 2013 16:46:28 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by sharksrog on Aug 21, 2013 16:50:25 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by sharksrog on Aug 21, 2013 16:52:03 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by sharksrog on Aug 21, 2013 16:55:37 GMT -5
Randy -- Gary still has all his skills, which is why I havent given up on him like you all have. Rog -- It seems that if someone doesn't share your high opinion of a player, he has "given up" on the player in your mind. Heck, you accused me of giving up on Brandon Belt, when in fact, I have likely been his biggest supporter here aside from you. I have disagreed with you more and more on Gary Brown as time has passed, but I certainly haven't given up on the guy. And I don't think anyone else here has either. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1967&page=1#ixzz2cdvuu11k |
|
|
|
Post by rxmeister on Aug 21, 2013 18:13:12 GMT -5
By the way, Bobby Evans confirmed that Heath will be called up on September 1. He said he would have to be added to the 40 after the season to protect him from the draft anyway, so they might as well make the move early to get a look at him.
|
|
|
|
Post by allenreed on Aug 21, 2013 19:10:44 GMT -5
Randy -- Gary still has all his skills, which is why I havent given up on him like you all have.
Rog -- It seems that if someone doesn't share your high opinion of a player, he has "given up" on the player in your mind.
Allen- Either that, or you hate them.
|
|
|
|
Post by allenreed on Aug 21, 2013 19:12:11 GMT -5
Randy -- Gary still has all his skills, which is why I havent given up on him like you all have.
Rog -- It seems that if someone doesn't share your high opinion of a player, he has "given up" on the player in your mind.
Allen- Either that, or you hate them.
|
|
