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Post by sharksrog on Aug 18, 2013 12:24:03 GMT -5
The big debate this spring about who should be the Giants' 5th outfielder seems to be answered. The answer? No one.
Here is what the Giants' outfielders not named Pagan, Pence, Blanco or Torres have hit this season:
Francouer .200
Kieschnick .234
Perez .238
Tanaka .267
Peguero .188
Gillespie .000
Not that the starters have done much better. Pence is at .281, but prior to being injurjed, Pagan hit .262 with a .688 OPS. Blanco and Torres have also struggled at .249 and .243, respectively, with neither posting an OPS above .651.
When a team is as far out of first place as the Giants are, one can't usually point his finger in just one direction. But an outfield with a combined OPS of about .700 seems a very good place to start. Aside from Pence, the Giants' outfield has been just awful.
If it's not the outfield, it might be the Giants' 4.08 ERA, better than only three National League teams. The infield hasn't been great, but it's been decent.
The Giants also lead only three teams in fielding percentage, and when it comes to base running, aside from Hunter Pence and Gregor Blanco, the team has stolen only 23 bases.
The good news? They should get a very nice draft choice next summer, and when they have been in the top 10 recently, they have fared very well -- Tim Lincecum, Madison Bumgarner, Buster Posey and Zack Wheeler.
Right now, the Giants would received the 9th or 10th pick.
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Post by rxmeister on Aug 18, 2013 17:01:02 GMT -5
I don't think the Giants will pick that high, because I expect them to continue to play to win in September, while other teams will be looking at youngsters. You could make the case that the Giants should be looking at youngsters too, but I don't think they're of the opinion that anyone in their system will be ready by 2014. Next year's opening day left fielder is probably playing for another team right now. Wouldn't surprise me at all if they took a run at Carlos Beltran again.
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Post by allenreed on Aug 18, 2013 21:22:55 GMT -5
I just don't think Beltran wants to play here. I'd like to see them try to trade for Ruggiano of the Marlins. I know his avg. is low, but every time I watch Miami he looks good. Send Pablo down there so he can get into all that good Carribean food.
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Post by rxmeister on Aug 19, 2013 9:13:55 GMT -5
So you would trade Pablo Sandoval for a 31year old journeyman outfielder hitting .209? Thank The Lord you're not my team's GM!
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Post by allenreed on Aug 19, 2013 11:41:55 GMT -5
No, I don't think I said that. I would want more than just Ruggiano for Pablo. But Justin can put the ball in the seats fairly frequently, can play all three outfield positions, and can steal a base. The Giants can use all those qualities.
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sfgdood
Long time member 
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Aug 19, 2013 13:17:50 GMT -5
Ruggiano has played great against the Giants and I think that has slanted your idea of how bad he really is. I wouldnt trade a low level prospect for him, let alone a 2 time all star, WS MVP talent who is 4 years younger.
Yeah but you dont hate Pablo, no.
~Dood
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Post by allenreed on Aug 19, 2013 15:01:01 GMT -5
Geez, Randy. I think I already said I would want more than just Ruggiano for Pablo. How liberal of you to ignore it.
Given a full season Ruggiano would hit about 25 homers, and drive in about 80 runs, as well as steal about 20 bags. I'd take that over Blanco/Torres. He does have five more homers than Pablo in 100 less ABs.
Holding Pablo accountable for his conditioning and poor play is not hating him, no more than holding Obama accountable for his dismal Presidency is racism.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Aug 19, 2013 16:57:21 GMT -5
Given a full season Ruggiano would hit about 25 homers, and drive in about 80 runs, as well as steal about 20 bags. I'd take that over Blanco/Torres. He does have five more homers than Pablo in 100 less ABs.
Dood - I think your ambition is a little higher than reality would suggest. 25 HRs would be just 8 fewer than Ruggiano has hit in his 283 game career. He had a great 2012 but this year he has barely been able to reach base when he doesnt hit the ball over the fence. I wouldnt mind the extra power but if the guy isnt making much solid contact, it wont do us any good. If this is what you had in mind for the money saved by not paying Lincecum...whoa!
Yes I realize you said you would expect more than just Justin for Pablo...but without more details, this is all i have to critique the deal thus far as you have stated it.
Holding Pablo accountable for his conditioning and poor play is not hating him, no more than holding Obama accountable for his dismal Presidency is racism.
Dood - agreed all around. But anymore it seems you always discount his good play and excellent lifetime stats. You want to trade him for a journeyman left fielder whose overall stats pale in comparison with Pablo's...and who, at 31 years of age, has yet to play as many as 100 games in a season.
I hate to sound like one of Rog's broken records, but Pablo just barely turned 27 years old. He's got immense talent. Let him play out his contract. If you're unsatisfied by July, then there will be more than ample market to trade him at the deadline...or give him a QO after the season and possibly pick up a draft pick...either of which would yield a lot more than we'd get in Ruggiano.
I don't want Torres or Francoeur back either but if you trade Pablo you will have another position to fill than just left field.
~Dood
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Post by sharksrog on Aug 19, 2013 18:20:06 GMT -5
Mark -- You could make the case that the Giants should be looking at youngsters too, but I don't think they're of the opinion that anyone in their system will be ready by 2014. Rog -- I went through the roster player by player last night, and while there will almost certainly be a trade or two and/or a free agent acquistion, I was surpised at how few players I DIDN'T think would be back. Not talking about the career minor leaguers or the unproven prospect, but rather the primary players on the roster. No sixth infielder or fifth outfielder, but almost all the others. Mark -- Next year's opening day left fielder is probably playing for another team right now. Wouldn't surprise me at all if they took a run at Carlos Beltran again. Rog -- Intriguing thought, although Carlos price tag may be higher and he will certainly be two years older. Still, the market is thin. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1965&page=1#13922#ixzz2cSa32qJH |
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Post by allenreed on Aug 20, 2013 12:59:18 GMT -5
Given a full season Ruggiano would hit about 25 homers, and drive in about 80 runs, as well as steal about 20 bags. I'd take that over Blanco/Torres. He does have five more homers than Pablo in 100 less ABs. Dood - I think your ambition is a little higher than reality would suggest. 25 HRs would be just 8 fewer than Ruggiano has hit in his 283 game career. He had a great 2012 but this year he has barely been able to reach base when he doesnt hit the ball over the fence. I wouldnt mind the extra power but if the guy isnt making much solid contact, it wont do us any good. If this is what you had in mind for the money saved by not paying Lincecum...whoa! Allen- The 25 homers is simply his current pace extrapolated over a full season of ABs. Ruggiano makes $494.5K so I don't think he will take up all the Lincecum money. I see him as a low risk way of bringing in a guy who might add some pop to a rather powerless lineup. You on the other hand, would like to bring Burrell and Renteria back. Hey, maybe we can find Edgardo Alfonso too. Yes I realize you said you would expect more than just Justin for Pablo...but without more details, this is all i have to critique the deal thus far as you have stated it. Allen- Either that, or you simply wish to advance your "Allen hates Pablo" narrative. Holding Pablo accountable for his conditioning and poor play is not hating him, no more than holding Obama accountable for his dismal Presidency is racism. Dood - agreed all around. But anymore it seems you always discount his good play and excellent lifetime stats. You want to trade him for a journeyman left fielder whose overall stats pale in comparison with Pablo's...and who, at 31 years of age, has yet to play as many as 100 games in a season. Allen- Again, fact checking reveals that I wouldn't trade Pablo straight up for Ruggiano. Actually, the thing about Pablo was a throwaway line conerning his weight and what might happen if he were exposed to Caribbean food on a daily basis. I hate to sound like one of Rog's broken records, but Pablo just barely turned 27 years old. He's got immense talent. Let him play out his contract. If you're unsatisfied by July, then there will be more than ample market to trade him at the deadline...or give him a QO after the season and possibly pick up a draft pick...either of which would yield a lot more than we'd get in Ruggiano. Allen- If you let him play out his contract, you get nothing for him. He does have immense talent. Unfortunately, that's not the only thing that's immense. Should someone with his talent be hitting .266/9/59? If his pace this year continues he will have hit under .285 in three of the last four years. Also the third year in four his OPS is under .800, and the third year in four that he has had less than 15 homers. People here that claim Pablo is a .300 hitter are just woofin'. Add to that his injury history and the fact he misses a good many games every year. |
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Post by rxmeister on Aug 20, 2013 16:34:08 GMT -5
If you extend that QO Allen, you're assured of a number one pick, so you don't lose him for nothing as you stated. The funny thing is that even the Marlins wouldn't do a Pablo for Ruggiano deal because Pablo makes too much money for them and they couldn't re-sign him. I'd love to take that Stanton guy off their hands though! What do you think it would take? How about Belt, Hembree, Crick and Blackburn for Stanton and Logan Morrison?
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Post by allenreed on Aug 20, 2013 16:56:49 GMT -5
So you could get a maybe draft pick. How many #1 Giant picks have really made a dent? Think Panik will?
Again, I mentioned Pablo a kind of a throwaway line having more to do with him getting at the food in Miami than the real possibility of a Sandoval for Ruggiano deal.
Stanton? There's been rumors that they would deal him. I used to like Morrison, but he's hurt alot now, and seems to have lost his power. How about Pablo, Crick, Sanchez, Blackburn, and Hembree for Stanton, Yellich and Koehler?
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Post by Islandboagie on Aug 20, 2013 17:29:40 GMT -5
The Marlins wouldn't want the money that comes with Sandoval.
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Post by rxmeister on Aug 20, 2013 21:19:25 GMT -5
I mentioned Morrison, because if you're trading them Belt, you probably need to take their first baseman in return. They'll be moving him soon because of his salary too. Wouldn't mind just getting him and putting him in LF.
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Post by allenreed on Aug 20, 2013 21:55:59 GMT -5
I don't think he can play an adequate outfield anymore. I think that's why they moved him to first.
Sandoval isn't that expensive, and you have to start somewhere. You can't just continue to throw AAA guys out there year after year.
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Post by Islandboagie on Aug 21, 2013 0:19:40 GMT -5
Allen- You can't just continue to throw AAA guys out there year after year.
Boagie- you're speaking of an ownership that spent a million dollars on that contraption out in left center. They've managed to piss off their fan base numerous times in their short history...nothing they do surprises me anymore.
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Post by allenreed on Aug 21, 2013 11:30:22 GMT -5
I believe they've also won two rings. Maybe those were under different ownership though.
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Post by sharksrog on Aug 21, 2013 13:43:49 GMT -5
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Post by sharksrog on Aug 21, 2013 13:46:54 GMT -5
If the Giants ARE going to trade Pablo, they should focus on two things IMO:
First, trade him when his value is up, not down.
Second, figure out how they're going to replace him.
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Post by allenreed on Aug 21, 2013 19:19:06 GMT -5
When have I been unreasonable concerning Pablo? I don't even think I'm on his case. I've just held him accountable for his conditioning and his performance.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Aug 21, 2013 20:27:25 GMT -5
If you're going to get rid of a 2 time all star third baseman because you think he's too fat, you might want to offer up some available alternatives who can do the job better...and I don't mean just this year...I mean career-for-career...relatively young or the same age as Pablo... and not wildly more expensive. And if we have to trade for him, how feasible would it be to get him with the prospects we have to trade? I have yet to see one viable name from you. Nothing but "get rid of the fat kid."
~Dood
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