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Post by sharksrog on Jul 21, 2013 9:48:18 GMT -5
Dood - you could say that. And I could say that Bud Norris has been at best unremarkable and at worst Mediocre at the big league level. Clearly not worthy of trading valued assets. Rog -- I think it comes down to what the Giants could reasonably expect from each of the three players in the future. With Norris, they would appear to have a middling starter whom they would control for two-plus years and would seem to have a high chance of re-signing beyond that if they choose to. With Brown, my best guess would be a second-division center fielder -- which is more or less the level Norris is at right now. Norris has the added advantage of playing a more desirable position (starting pitcher). My guess with Panik would be second-division second baseman. Again, it's the bird in the hand compared to two in the bush (and I don't mean the bush leagues). Neither Brown nor Panik appears to me to be likely to play much better than Norris. There are TWO of them, so if both players develop into second-division starters, the Giants would wind up with less talent. But that would be at least a couple of years down the road, and Brown and Panik seem to carry more risk. What makes Norris attractive to me is that he has two-plus more years of team control and seems likely to re-sign with the Giants if they want him. He's only 28, so he should still have a few more prime pitching years. I can see your point on this one, Randy. I certainly don't think it is cut and dried, and as I have mentioned, I would have to think long and hard before pulling the trigger. Perhaps the Giants' best shot at Norris is to sign him as a free agent after the 2015 season. But the Class A pitchers should have arrived by then, and the Giants' need for him might not be as high as it will be next season in particular. A 2014 rotation of Cain, Bumgarner, Gaudin, Vogelsong and Norris might be good to very good. Without Tim Lincecum, it would be very affordable. That might allow the Giants to add another outfielder AND augment their bullpen. Hey, you know how much I love Tim. And really, with the exception of May of this season, he has pitched close to his 2010-2011 level since last year's All-Star game -- especially if we include the 2012 postseason. Taking out a chosen month does distort the overall picture, but the result does offer significant hope. But let's just suppose the Giants traded Brown and Panik for Norris, then made a qualifying offer to Tim but didn't re-sign him. The result would be saving something like $12-$15 million between Lincecum compared to Norris, leaving the Giants some significant money to add another outfielder on top of re-signing Hunter Pence. Prospect-wise, they would lose Brown and Panik, their #1 choices in 2010 and 2011, but pick up a sandwich pitch in next year's draft. Kyle Crick was a sandwich pick, so it is possible the Giants wouldn't lose too much for the future (although the likely outcome would be losing some). I'm not suggesting the Giants do this. I'm simply looking at the effects of the possiblity. I haven't looked at the other outfielders who might be on the free agent market this winter, and that would clearly have an impact on such a decision. I don't think the Giants will trade for Norris, but I do think there is a decent chance they will pick him up as a free agent after the 2015 season. But a LOT can change in the meantime. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1896&page=2#ixzz2ZglMcv12 |
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Post by sharksrog on Jul 21, 2013 9:58:37 GMT -5
Not that Blanco/Torres and Tanaka/Franceour are great platoons, but within their platoon roles, they are batting .296 as a group. Brown is hitting .247 in a hitters' minor league.
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sfgdood
Long time member 
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
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Post by sfgdood on Jul 21, 2013 10:57:29 GMT -5
But let's just suppose the Giants traded Brown and Panik for Norris, then made a qualifying offer to Tim but didn't re-sign him. The result would be saving something like $12-$15 million between Lincecum compared to Norris, leaving the Giants some significant money to add another outfielder on top of re-signing Hunter Pence.
Prospect-wise, they would lose Brown and Panik, their #1 choices in 2010 and 2011, but pick up a sandwich pitch in next year's draft. Kyle Crick was a sandwich pick, so it is possible the Giants wouldn't lose too much for the future (although the likely outcome would be losing some).
Dood - How would this be a benefit? According to your assessment, the Giants are LOUSY at choosing top prospects. You're basically trading 6 of the old for half a dozen of the new versions. We would have longer to wait for development at the end of which time, you would tell us we should be trading THOSE guys for a mediocre pitcher.
~Dood
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Jul 21, 2013 11:09:13 GMT -5
Not that Blanco/Torres and Tanaka/Franceour are great platoons, but within their platoon roles, they are batting .296 as a group. Brown is hitting .247 in a hitters' minor league.
Dood - pathetic stat choosing. You put up small samples of the platoon guys in order to obfuscate how mediocre to lousy they have been this season as a whole and show Brown's full season stats to basically diminish how hot he's been of late.
Blanco .274
Torres .259
Tanaka .273
Francoeur .215
Brown .910 OPS in June....800 OPS thus far in July (and climbing)
~Dood
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Post by allenreed on Jul 21, 2013 14:29:58 GMT -5
Is a guy that has never excelled above AAA a valuable asset? Dood - If so, then we can knock Bud Norris off the wish list. Allen- Not sure what you're saying here. Are you saying that Norris has never excelled above A ball. That would seem to be a ridiculous statement. Or are you saying that Brown's value wouldn't net us Norris in a trade, no matter who he might be paired with. I haven't really seen anything awfully wrong with the outfield defense we have. Torres made a particularly nice play on Cody Ross tonight. Dood - Torres is particularly awful coming in on line drives...they tend to get by him way too easily, like the one in the Mets series that basically screwed Lincecum right up the ass. And his jumps arent all that great. On Friday, Brown made 3 plays as good or better than the one on Ross tonight. Allen- I'm not sure why, but Torres seems much better in center than on the corners. He has mad some bad defensive plays this year that have defied belief. I don't have any problem with giving Brown a shot, but I'd wait until we're actually out of it. Dood - that isn't giving him a "shot"...it's extended Spring Training. Allen- Not really. You can still see what he does against ML competition. Say we're out of it but playing a team that's still in the race. They're not going to be playing as if it were spring training. I think the games are too important now to throw an untested rook out there, and yes, I thought the same thing with Perez. Maybe in September. Dood - But it's ok to throw a veteran out there (Tanaka) who had never played outfield before this season? Allen- I had my doubts about that too. But so far, Tenaka hasn't really hurt us. Whenever I see Tenaka, I can't help but think of the Japanese guy in Major League 2. Frankly, I don't think the Giants will deal for Norris. I don't think they have enough in way of prospects to offer. If I were Houston, I wouldn't take Brown and Panik for him. Dood - considering you've probably seen even less of Norris than you have either Panik or Brown, I'm not really shocked. Allen- Actually Don, I've seen Norris pitch several times. I watch alot of baseball. And since I've thought the Giants might have interest in Bud, I've watched his starts. What I see with Bus is that he would definitely benefit from a change of scenery. I've seen Brown play once and Panik not at all. I'm just going on their statistics more than anything. Don't assume to know what you don't know about me Randy. |
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
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Post by sfgdood on Jul 21, 2013 18:08:21 GMT -5
Is a guy that has never excelled above AAA a valuable asset?
Dood - If so, then we can knock Bud Norris off the wish list.
Allen- Not sure what you're saying here. Are you saying that Norris has never excelled above A ball. That would seem to be a ridiculous statement. Or are you saying that Brown's value wouldn't net us Norris in a trade, no matter who he might be paired with.
Dood - you changed the criteria...initially you said never "excelled above AAA"...not A.
I don't have any problem with giving Brown a shot, but I'd wait until we're actually out of it.
Dood - that isn't giving him a "shot"...it's extended Spring Training.
Allen- Not really. You can still see what he does against ML competition. Say we're out of it but playing a team that's still in the race. They're not going to be playing as if it were spring training.
Dood - that assumes the Giants will be eliminated far earlier than most teams.
Dood - But it's ok to throw a veteran out there (Tanaka) who had never played outfield before this season?
Allen- I had my doubts about that too. But so far, Tenaka hasn't really hurt us. Whenever I see Tenaka, I can't help but think of the Japanese guy in Major League 2.
Dood - I actually liked that sequel even though it got bad reviews. As for the Giants' Tanaka, He miscommunicared badly today with Blanco in the 1st inning today, costing us a run, then he made a bad baserunning play in the 9th.
I've seen Brown play once and Panik not at all. I'm just going on their statistics more than anything.
Dood - not a good idea in any trade.
~Dood
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Post by allenreed on Jul 21, 2013 23:56:25 GMT -5
Is a guy that has never excelled above AAA a valuable asset? Dood - If so, then we can knock Bud Norris off the wish list. Allen- Not sure what you're saying here. Are you saying that Norris has never excelled above A ball. That would seem to be a ridiculous statement. Or are you saying that Brown's value wouldn't net us Norris in a trade, no matter who he might be paired with. Dood - you changed the criteria...initially you said never "excelled above AAA"...not A. Allen- Absolutely right. The culpa is all mea. I don't have any problem with giving Brown a shot, but I'd wait until we're actually out of it. Dood - that isn't giving him a "shot"...it's extended Spring Training. Allen- Not really. You can still see what he does against ML competition. Say we're out of it but playing a team that's still in the race. They're not going to be playing as if it were spring training. Dood - that assumes the Giants will be eliminated far earlier than most teams. Allen- Yes, it does. Dood - But it's ok to throw a veteran out there (Tanaka) who had never played outfield before this season? Allen- I had my doubts about that too. But so far, Tenaka hasn't really hurt us. Whenever I see Tenaka, I can't help but think of the Japanese guy in Major League 2. Dood - I actually liked that sequel even though it got bad reviews. Allen- I liked it as much as the first. Randy Quaid was hilarious. Reminded me of myself when I was a younger fan. I also liked the manger in the hospital pretending to watch british TV while he listened to the game. "I love this s***. I may move to England!" As for the Giants' Tanaka, He miscommunicared badly today with Blanco in the 1st inning today, costing us a run, then he made a bad baserunning play in the 9th. Allen- Funny. I posted that he hadn't hurt us just before the game today, and then he just kills us. I've seen Brown play once and Panik not at all. I'm just going on their statistics more than anything. Dood - not a good idea in any trade. Allen- Well, if I were making the trade, I've seen Norris, and I'll almost always trade two mediocre prospects for a guy who could be my #3 starter. The way it's looking, Panik may never see the majors. |
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Post by sharksrog on Jul 22, 2013 14:41:59 GMT -5
Dood - How would this be a benefit? According to your assessment, the Giants are LOUSY at choosing top prospects.
Rog -- This is what drives me crazy, Randy. I haven't said the Giants are lousy at choosing top prospects. To the contrary, I have posted that while drafting #10 overall in 2006, the Giants got what has likely turned out to the best 3rd-best player (Tim Lincecum, behind only Clayton Kershaw and Evan Longoria). In 2007 the only arguably better player I can remember than #10 Madison Bumgarnerwould be #1 overall David Price, and one could make the argument Mad Bum is the better of the two. There may be someone else who is in the discussion, but I can't think of anyone.
#5 Buster Posey is considered to be the top pick in the 2008 draft, and #6 Zack Wheeler would rank among the best in 2009.
So why do you try to put words in my mouth? I'm never dumber than when someone does that.
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Post by sharksrog on Jul 22, 2013 15:01:51 GMT -5
Allen- Not sure what you're saying here. Are you saying that Norris has never excelled above A ball. That would seem to be a ridiculous statement. Or are you saying that Brown's value wouldn't net us Norris in a trade, no matter who he might be paired with. Dood - you changed the criteria...initially you said never "excelled above AAA"...not A. Rog -- Aren't we able to see what someone meant even if he wrote it incorrectly? We have been talking about how Gary Brown hasn't excelled above A ball -- not above AAA ball. It can be hard to tell when someone is JOKING on-line, but wasn't the mistake above obvious, and shouldn't what was intended have been addressed rather than hanging on to the mistake to further one's argument? Brown is hitting .244 in AAA. At the same age, Norris posted a 2.62 ERA in AAA and was promoted to the majors for 10 starts. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1896&page=3#ixzz2ZnzRRfmz |
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Jul 22, 2013 15:05:37 GMT -5
Rog -- This is what drives me crazy, Randy. I haven't said the Giants are lousy at choosing top prospects. To the contrary, I have posted that while drafting #10 overall in 2006, the Giants got what has likely turned out to the best 3rd-best player (Tim Lincecum, behind only Clayton Kershaw and Evan Longoria). In 2007 the only arguably better player I can remember than #10 Madison Bumgarnerwould be #1 overall David Price, and one could make the argument Mad Bum is the better of the two. There may be someone else who is in the discussion, but I can't think of anyone.
#5 Buster Posey is considered to be the top pick in the 2008 draft, and #6 Zack Wheeler would rank among the best in 2009.
So why do you try to put words in my mouth? I'm never dumber than when someone does that.
Dood - by endorsing a trade of top Giants prospects for a mediocre pitcher like Norris, you are basically implying that the Giants are indeed lousy at choosing their prospects.
~Dood
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Jul 22, 2013 15:17:29 GMT -5
Rog -- Aren't we able to see what someone meant even if he wrote it incorrectly? We have been talking about how Gary Brown hasn't excelled above A ball -- not above AAA ball.
It can be hard to tell when someone is JOKING on-line, but wasn't the mistake above obvious, and shouldn't what was intended have been addressed rather than hanging on to the mistake to further one's argument?
Brown is hitting .244 in AAA. At the same age, Norris posted a 2.62 ERA in AAA and was promoted to the majors for 10 starts.
Dood - you just proved why there is a HUGE difference in saying someone excelled above AAA as opposed to excelled above A ball. How am I supposed to know what someone meant? Can I read a mind through an internet connection? For that matter how do YOU presume to know what someone else meant? IIRC you criticized people more for spelling and grammatical errors than anyone else here. If I can catch the meaning through an error I will never bother about it but if it's hard to tell, I have to go with what was typed.
My point was about Norris having never excelled above AAA to make it perfectly clear. Prove me wrong.
~Dood
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Post by sharksrog on Jul 22, 2013 16:21:25 GMT -5
I don't have any problem with giving Brown a shot, but I'd wait until we're actually out of it. Dood - that isn't giving him a "shot"...it's extended Spring Training. Rog -- Actually, extended spring training is held in Arizona primarily for players who aren't yet ready for full seasons minor league levels. Given a player a chance to play in order to earn an everyday position is giving him a shot. This, giving Gary Brown a chance to play after the Giants were out of it would be giving him a shot. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1896&page=3#ixzz2ZoMEukVF |
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Jul 22, 2013 16:36:56 GMT -5
Rog -- Actually, extended spring training is held in Arizona primarily for players who aren't yet ready for full seasons minor league levels. Given a player a chance to play in order to earn an everyday position is giving him a shot.
This, giving Gary Brown a chance to play after the Giants were out of it would be giving him a shot.
Dood - you're a hypocritical horse's ass
~Dood
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Post by sharksrog on Jul 22, 2013 16:39:24 GMT -5
Not that Blanco/Torres and Tanaka/Franceour are great platoons, but within their platoon roles, they are batting .296 as a group. Brown is hitting .247 in a hitters' minor league. Dood - pathetic stat choosing. You put up small samples of the platoon guys in order to obfuscate how mediocre to lousy they have been this season as a whole and show Brown's full season stats to basically diminish how hot he's been of late. Blanco .274 Torres .259 Tanaka .273 Francoeur .215 Brown .910 OPS in June....800 OPS thus far in July (and climbing) Rog -- Actually, Randy, I had already posted Brown's stats month by month and did show that he has been improving. If you're going to criticize, pay attention so that you will at least know the entirety of what you're criticizing. As for comparing the combined batting averages in platoon situations of the Giants' four platooning outfielders, how about we go about it this way: Platoon players against left-handers: Torres/Franceour -- .310; Brown -- .260. Platoon players against right-handers: Blanco/Tanaka -- .283; Brown -- .241. Did I mention that the Giants' platoon numbers came in the majors with a home pitchers' park and that Brown's numbers came in AAA with a home hitters' park? Did I mentioned that Tanaka is platooning against right-handers because while playing with Brown, his split was almost 100 points higher (.339 to .241)? Did I mention that he isn't starting against southpaws because his split while playing with Brown was only 19 points higher (.279 to .260)? There just aren't really too many ways to look at the hitting numbers that favor Gary, Randy. The one hitting advantage I would give to Gary is that he hits for more power than Blanco/Tanaka. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1896&page=3#ixzz2ZoOVmmjx |
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Post by sharksrog on Jul 22, 2013 16:43:15 GMT -5
Randy -- As for the Giants' Tanaka, He miscommunicared badly today with Blanco in the 1st inning today, costing us a run, then he made a bad baserunning play in the 9th. Rog -- You're absolutely right about both of these, Randy. In each of those situations I would have preferred Brown. Playing against right-handers overall though, I prefer Tanaka. The key with Tanaka will be if he can avoid further outfield mistakes as he made yesterday and if he can hit the ball hard enough to keep the outfielders at least respectfully deep. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1896&page=3#ixzz2ZoTA42sr |
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
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Post by sfgdood on Jul 22, 2013 19:36:45 GMT -5
As for comparing the combined batting averages in platoon situations of the Giants' four platooning outfielders, how about we go about it this way:
Platoon players against left-handers: Torres/Franceour -- .310; Brown -- .260.
Platoon players against right-handers: Blanco/Tanaka -- .283; Brown -- .241.
Dood - Francoeur was released because he was a 215 hitter. Torres makes horrid errors in the field, can't steal bases anymore and has lost whatever power he showed in 2010. Tanaka is as bad defensively in the OF as he was in the infield in Scottsdale. Blanco is ok, I guess. I'd rather see Brown playing CF with Gregor in LF than the rest of those losers, no matter what your small samples show.
~Dood
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
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Post by sfgdood on Jul 22, 2013 19:52:35 GMT -5
FYI...in the D-Backs series, the CF/LF platoon went 5 for 22 (.227), and that's giving them the benefit of one hit by Torres after entering Friday's game as a defensive replacement and also one pinch hit by Francoeur...the starters went 3 for 20 (.150)
I can use small samples too.
~Dood
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Post by sharksrog on Jul 23, 2013 12:30:46 GMT -5
Randy -- FYI...in the D-Backs series, the CF/LF platoon went 5 for 22 (.227), and that's giving them the benefit of one hit by Torres after entering Friday's game as a defensive replacement and also one pinch hit by Francoeur...the starters went 3 for 20 (.150) I can use small samples too. Rog -- What I was using wasn't a huge sample by any means, but it was the platoon splits for the entire season -- which are a whole lot more meaningful than 22 at bats. This is something like the Francisco Peguero/Cole Gillespie discussion we had in that there doesn't appear to be a great solution. In that instance, we were talking about a fifth outfielder, so it didn't really make much difference. Here we're talking about two starting spots, so it does matter more. But do you think Gary Brown is going to be a savior -- or even an improvement? The Pacific Coast League is a hitters' league. Todd Linden had a MONSTER season there. Yet Brown is hitting in the .240's. Brown was once considered the Giants' #1 prospect. Now he is ranked as low as 9th. Why? Because he hasn't hit, and he hasn't been able to develop his base stealing to take advantage of his great speed. He once was projected as the Giants' leadoff hitter of the future. Now, even you are saying he's better suited for the bottom of the order (at least for now). You seem to become obsessed with certain players, Randy. Belt and Brown come to mind. It's not a personal reflection on you if they do well or don't do well. I was just as high on Brandon Belt as you were. For whatever reason, we both got fooled a bit. I'm still a Brandon Belt fan and actually think he's a bit underrated. But while my expectations for him are still high, I have lowered them from the excellence I originally anticipated. You, on the other hand, seem to have become defensive about him. A year or so ago you actually seemed paranoid for him. I haven't liked Brown as well as you have, but I did upgrade my opinion of him a bit based on how strongly you felt about him. As he has stopped improving, I have lowered it back again. You seem to be ignoring reality. There is something very important in the last paragraph above, Randy. I raised my opinion of Brown BECAUSE OF YOU. Can you even imagine changing your opinion because of one of my observations? Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1896&page=3#12958#ixzz2ZtDRyHH6 |
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Post by sharksrog on Jul 23, 2013 12:32:57 GMT -5
Allen- I'm not sure why, but Torres seems much better in center than on the corners. He has mad some bad defensive plays this year that have defied belief. Rog -- Very good observations, Allen. Blanco is a better center fielder than Torres, so one would think the Giants would play the better outfielder in the more important position of center field. But the difference between them is much greater in left field than in center, so the Giants are going with what is better for the TEAM. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1896&page=3#ixzz2ZtIolQ5Z |
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Post by sharksrog on Jul 23, 2013 12:43:45 GMT -5
Rog -- But let's just suppose the Giants traded Brown and Panik for Norris, then made a qualifying offer to Tim but didn't re-sign him. The result would be saving something like $12-$15 million between Lincecum compared to Norris, leaving the Giants some significant money to add another outfielder on top of re-signing Hunter Pence. Prospect-wise, they would lose Brown and Panik, their #1 choices in 2010 and 2011, but pick up a sandwich pitch in next year's draft. Kyle Crick was a sandwich pick, so it is possible the Giants wouldn't lose too much for the future (although the likely outcome would be losing some). Dood - How would this be a benefit? Rog -- I didn't say it WOULD be a benefit. What I did point out is that in the above scenario, the Giants would earn a sandwich pick, which might limit their loss of future. You are absolutely correct in pointing out that the sandwich pick would be unlikely to reach the major leagues as quickly as Panik or especially Brown. My point was that if the Giants were able to draft someone as good as Kyle Crick (who was a sandwhich pick), they might limit the loss to the future -- and possibly even enhance it. Wouldn't you trade both Brown and Panik for Crick if Kyle were in another organization? Randy -- According to your assessment, the Giants are LOUSY at choosing top prospects. Rog -- No. Randy -- You're basically trading 6 of the old for half a dozen of the new versions. Rog -- Actually, I was talking about "trading" two of the older versions for one of the new. I wasn't saying it was an even trade -- merely pointing out that the sandwhich pick could help minimize the loss. Randy -- We would have longer to wait for development at the end of which time, you would tell us we should be trading THOSE guys for a mediocre pitcher. Rog -- See, this is where you drive me crazy, Randy. You don't know what the heck I would do. Try not to put words in my mouth. I try not to put words in YOUR mouth, but rather focus on what you HAVE said. Things like Scott Proctor is better than Chad Gaudin. Hey, we've ALL made mistakes. But please don't put words in my mouth to make it SEEM I am making or have made one. Like Don, you seem to resort to name-calling to cover up being painted into a corner by logic. If you make a mistake, try to admit it, learn from it, and move on. I may not always be successful, but that is what I try to do. Instead of demeaning MYSELF by resorting to name-calling. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1896&page=3#ixzz2ZtJSeQ39 |
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Post by sharksrog on Jul 23, 2013 12:48:00 GMT -5
Rog -- Actually, extended spring training is held in Arizona primarily for players who aren't yet ready for full seasons minor league levels. Given a player a chance to play in order to earn an everyday position is giving him a shot. This, giving Gary Brown a chance to play after the Giants were out of it would be giving him a shot. Dood - you're a hypocritical horse's ass Rog -- There you go lowering yourself to the level of name-calling again, Randy. You say I'm "a hypocritical horse's ass," yet don't say a peep to support that opinion. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1896&page=3#ixzz2ZtMdI3sq |
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Jul 23, 2013 12:56:42 GMT -5
Rog -- But do you think Gary Brown is going to be a savior -- or even an improvement?
Dood - savior to this season? No. Improvement? Most definitely. It immediately makes the outfield a defensive strength which helps the pitching. As for hitting, I never said I expect Gary to step in and dominate NL pitching...but considering what we're got, I can't see Gary being a whole lot worse.
The Pacific Coast League is a hitters' league. Todd Linden had a MONSTER season there.
Dood - which proves having a monster season in the PCL makes little to no difference to your career, other than maybe getting you called up quicker. As to how it effects success in the big leagues, just ask Todd or John Bowker. I never thought those guys would ever do much in the big Leagues when I saw them in San Jose.
Yet Brown is hitting in the .240's.
Dood - when you get off to a horrid start it pretty much kills any chance for a monster season...but it doesn't take away the talent you have.
Brown was once considered the Giants' #1 prospect. Now he is ranked as low as 9th. Why? Because he hasn't hit, and he hasn't been able to develop his base stealing to take advantage of his great speed.
He once was projected as the Giants' leadoff hitter of the future. Now, even you are saying he's better suited for the bottom of the order (at least for now).
Dood - what I said is he can help the team by being on the field...where he hits is up to Bochy. Gary is clearly not a middle of the order guy. I just want him on the field...wherever he hits in the order, he cant be much worse than Francoeur's 215
~Dood
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Post by sharksrog on Jul 23, 2013 13:06:32 GMT -5
Dood - Francoeur was released because he was a 215 hitter. Rog -- Actually, Randy, he was released because he hit only .208. He has raised his average to .215 (now .212) since joining the Giants. Randy -- Torres makes horrid errors in the field, can't steal bases anymore and has lost whatever power he showed in 2010. Rog -- Andres has made inexplicable errors this season, but as Allen pointed out, most have come in left field, and the Giants have adjusted by playing him mostly in center. Randy -- Tanaka is as bad defensively in the OF as he was in the infield in Scottsdale. Rog -- But part of why he -- not Gary Brown -- was called up was because he was hitting nearly 100 points better at Fresno facing right-handed pitchers, which is the role he was called up to fill. Randy -- Blanco is ok, I guess. I'd rather see Brown playing CF with Gregor in LF than the rest of those losers, no matter what your small samples show. Rog -- I said it would be better for Hector Sanchez's career him to play every day in Fresno rather than catch once in a while for the Giants. A shoulder injury factored into it this season, but at Fresno, Hector has improved his OPS to .830 from the horrible .549 it was with the Giants. Perhaps Brown is better off playing every day in Fresno than playing part-time in SF. I realize you would like to see him playing every day for the Giants, but how do they justify promoting a guy to the majors when he hasn't mastered even AA with the bat? Perhaps if the Giants fall out of it (and these last two disappointing losses may have taken the last breaths of wind out of their sails), they will indeed call up Brown and play him every day. But you seem to think that would be "extended spring training." You have yet to show us WHY the Giants are making a mistake by not bringing up Brown, merely saying he couldn't make things worse. First of all, he COULD make things even worse. Perhaps more importantly, that might not be the best thing for HIS development. Here's yet another factor that weakens your argument. The one positive thing Gary has done each of the past two seasons is recover at his new level after a very slow start. That's a whole lot better than declining as the season goes on. But it also indicates there is a strong possiblity that Gary will falter early in his career with the Giants -- when what the Giants would need him to do right now is play well if not excel. Before Gary began to adjust to AAA pitching, he was hitting .186. Is there any reason to believe he would hit better with the Giants if he had to adjust to major league pitching right now? Well, is there? Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1896&page=3#ixzz2ZtNIonr9 |
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Post by sharksrog on Jul 23, 2013 13:11:58 GMT -5
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Post by sharksrog on Jul 23, 2013 13:15:36 GMT -5
Rog -- This is what drives me crazy, Randy. I haven't said the Giants are lousy at choosing top prospects. To the contrary, I have posted that while drafting #10 overall in 2006, the Giants got what has likely turned out to the best 3rd-best player (Tim Lincecum, behind only Clayton Kershaw and Evan Longoria). In 2007 the only arguably better player I can remember than #10 Madison Bumgarnerwould be #1 overall David Price, and one could make the argument Mad Bum is the better of the two. There may be someone else who is in the discussion, but I can't think of anyone. #5 Buster Posey is considered to be the top pick in the 2008 draft, and #6 Zack Wheeler would rank among the best in 2009. So why do you try to put words in my mouth? I'm never dumber than when someone does that. Dood - by endorsing a trade of top Giants prospects for a mediocre pitcher like Norris, you are basically implying that the Giants are indeed lousy at choosing their prospects. Rog -- You are seeing what you want to see, Randy. You're ignoring the high praise I gave the Giants for drafting Tim, Madison and Buster because of what you think I am "implying?" Kind of an illogical conclusion, would you agree? Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1896&page=3#ixzz2ZtT7rsRp |
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Jul 23, 2013 13:21:25 GMT -5
You seem to become obsessed with certain players, Randy. Belt and Brown come to mind. It's not a personal reflection on you if they do well or don't do well.
Dood - I don't ever take things personal from a baseball perspective. I just enjoy watching and following the careers of those I have seen personally. I have been disappointed in Belt because it frustrates me that his talent is being, to a large degree, wasted. To me he doesn't have the fire in the belly he seemed to have in the minor leagues. Back then he wanted badly to get the show...now that he's here he seems to not care that he's blowing a big opportunity. He has stagnated and is comfortable with where he is. I believe he may need to be traded to get the fire back, and that's a real shame.
I'm NOT disappointed in Brown yet because he hasn't begun his big league career. If when he does, he isn't achieving as I know he can, THEN I will be disappointed. For now, it frustrates me that because his minor league career hasn't been all champagne and roses, people like you have given up on his talent. And because you have given up on his talent you want him shipped off for Norris, who has been no better than mediocre in his career...and yet for some reason you believe Bud will be better than that as a Giant...but Gary Brown can never get past his bad season in your eyes. THAT bewilders me.
I was just as high on Brandon Belt as you were. For whatever reason, we both got fooled a bit.
I'm still a Brandon Belt fan and actually think he's a bit underrated. But while my expectations for him are still high, I have lowered them from the excellence I originally anticipated.
Dood - Belt still has the talent to be great. It's up to him...if he wants to work for it, he might get it. if not, he'll be exactly what he is now...nothing special.
You, on the other hand, seem to have become defensive about him. A year or so ago you actually seemed paranoid for him.
Dood - I just don't give up on talent as quickly as you do.
I haven't liked Brown as well as you have, but I did upgrade my opinion of him a bit based on how strongly you felt about him. As he has stopped improving, I have lowered it back again. You seem to be ignoring reality.
Dood - I just know what I saw...talent. YOU didn't see him as much so you go on pure numbers. That has always been your deal.
There is something very important in the last paragraph above, Randy. I raised my opinion of Brown BECAUSE OF YOU. Can you even imagine changing your opinion because of one of my observations?
Dood - if you had the chance to actually watch these players and didnt go strictly by numbers and rankings and such...maybe your opinion would have more meaning to me. But nothing from you will EVER trump what I observe with my own eyes.
~Dood
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Post by sharksrog on Jul 23, 2013 13:39:23 GMT -5
Rog -- But do you think Gary Brown is going to be a savior -- or even an improvement? Dood - savior to this season? No. Improvement? Most definitely. Rog -- Either the Giants themselves disagree with you here and/or they think Gary's development would be stunted by bringing him up now. When an injury came up in September of 2006, I suggested the Giants bring up Tim Lincecum to make the September 15th start. He had pitched for San Jose on September 9th, so it would have been right on rotation for him. Given that he gave up five runs in his major league debut eight months later, I was probably wrong. Tim was considered by many to be the pitcher in the 2006 draft closest to the majors and had struck out 15.4 batters per nine innings for San Jose while allowing only 4.2 hits per nine. He was coming off a San Jose playoff performance in which he gave up one run on five hits (and walked only one!) while striking out 10 over 7 innings). While Gary was excellent with San Jose in 2011, winning the league MVP, Tim was clearly far better in 2006. Gary was excellent. Tim was exceptional. But I was probably wrong about Tim. Even eight months later after he posted an other-worldly 0.29 ERA at Fresno, he gave up five runs in his first outing in the majors. Is it likely he would have fared much better when I wanted him called up earlier? How does Tim's 0.29 ERA at Fresno compare with Gary's .242 average there? Even though he posted only a 4.00 ERA as a rookie, Tim was ready when he was called up. Brown certainly doesn't appear to be. Tim dominated San Jose and was other-worldly at Fresno. Gary was outstanding at San Jose but has been just so-so in AA and AAA. What would lead us to believe that Gary is ready? By the way, Lincecum, Mad Bum, Posey and even Belt performed FAR better in the minors than has Gary. Perhaps Gary has regressed since San Jose. I don't think nearly as many scouts were questioning his swing then as are questioning it now. Whatever the situation, I have little doubt he was outstanding when you say him play in San Jose -- but is no longer playing anywhere near an outstanding level. Of the five Fresno outfielders, Gary has clearly been the worst hitter. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1896&page=3#ixzz2ZtULAg4K |
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Jul 23, 2013 13:41:07 GMT -5
Before Gary began to adjust to AAA pitching, he was hitting .186. Is there any reason to believe he would hit better with the Giants if he had to adjust to major league pitching right now?
Well, is there?
Dood - the fact that he was the BEST offensive player in the CAL League, playing against many of the same guys he's competing with in the PCL is one very good reason.
Another might be--and I'm just guessing here--that the Giants are trying to pigeon hole him into being a leadoff hitter and he's just not comfortable doing what leadoff hitters do. I believe if the Giants were to let Gary do what he does without trying to change him into what THEY want him to be, he would be showing his talent more clearly.
~Dood
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Post by sharksrog on Jul 23, 2013 13:53:15 GMT -5
Rog -- You don't seem to know WHAT the heck I'm thinking, Randy. If I may, please allot me to show you here. Randy -- For now, it frustrates me that because his minor league career hasn't been all champagne and roses, people like you have given up on his talent. And because you have given up on his talent you want him shipped off for Norris, who has been no better than mediocre in his career... Rog -- I have stated that Bud has been just about a league-average starter over his career -- probably even a bit less. So I agree with you that he has been mediocre. On the other hand, I HAVEN'T given up on Gary's talent. I simply rate it considerably lower than you seem to. When you and I first discussed Gary, the scouts' opinions were closer to yours. Now they're closer to mine. Randy -- and yet for some reason you believe Bud will be better than that as a Giant... Rog -- Oh, he might be a bit better. He would be pitching in more of a pitchers' park and his career has been improving. But I wouldn't expect him to be much better than he has been so far this year. Randy -- but Gary Brown can never get past his bad season in your eyes. THAT bewilders me. Rog -- Gary's numbers have regressed each of the past two seasons. Even before that regression, I was expressing doubts about him. I hope to be way, way wrong about him. But so far my fears have been pretty much on the money. Gary is still striking out too much, walking too little, and being inefficient as a base stealer. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1896&page=3#ixzz2ZtaJEcDb |
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Post by sharksrog on Jul 23, 2013 13:55:58 GMT -5
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