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Post by sharksrog on Jun 27, 2013 22:20:53 GMT -5
On (bringing up) Gary Brown and Roger Kieschnick: “Not at this time. They need to keep learning how to hit down there. They’re not close to being major league ready.”
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sfgdood
Long time member 
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Jun 28, 2013 15:38:30 GMT -5
And yet Juan Perez (1 for 15), Nick Noonan (.212), Francisco Peguero (.188) and Brett Pill (.148) were all ready?? Maybe it's time for some changes in the development positions.
~Dood
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Post by allenreed on Jun 28, 2013 22:10:11 GMT -5
Yes. We've won two of the past three championships. By all means, let's make changes.
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Post by sharksrog on Jun 29, 2013 0:39:47 GMT -5
Randy -- And yet Juan Perez (1 for 15), Nick Noonan (.212), Francisco Peguero (.188) and Brett Pill (.148) were all ready?? Maybe it's time for some changes in the development positions. Rog -- I think the problem is that Perez, Noonan, Peguero and Pill may NEVER be ready (to perform at the level of a starter), whereas the Giants hope Brown in particular is able to do so and thus don't want to rush him. Let me ask you this: How would you have suggested the Giants develop Gary differently than they have? Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1860&page=1#12106#ixzz2Xa4PpE4Y |
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Post by sharksrog on Jun 29, 2013 0:40:59 GMT -5
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Jun 29, 2013 0:48:08 GMT -5
Allen - Yes. We've won two of the past three championships. By all means, let's make changes.
Dood - Didn't say the GM needed to be changed. He clearly put the pieces on the field to win titles. What i said needed changing specifically is the minor league development team. Look at what we have been getting out of our top prospects AFTER Buster Posey was called up and it is paltry. We have ZERO starting pitchers that are even CLOSE to ML ready by our own estimation.
~Dood
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Post by rxmeister on Jun 29, 2013 6:43:00 GMT -5
You have to take the good with the bad. You have a championship team, you get a low draft pick every year and your system suffers. Then because you're a contender you trade your top minor leaguers at the deadline for players that put you over the top. All that leads to a weak overrall minor league system. That's expected, not incompetence. All the good pitching prospects are at A ball, especially the number one prospect Kyle Crick, who in his two starts since returning from the DL has thrown 9 scoreless innings with 18 strikeouts! I think we've been spoiled by this team's recent success.
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Post by sharksrog on Jun 29, 2013 9:37:38 GMT -5
Mark -- Then because you're a contender you trade your top minor leaguers at the deadline for players that put you over the top. Rog -- With the exception of Zack Wheeler, there are very few minor leaguers Brian Sabean has traded during his 16-year tenure that have been a considerable loss. I am often shocked at how often he acquires decent role players or better for very little. Marco Scutaro for Charlie Culberson? Got to be one of the best deadline deals of all time in terms of acquiring for almost nothing a player who performced at a high level. The Giants may have given very little to get Huinter Pence, as well, although despite my having not been high on him (very poor K/BB ratio), Tommy Joseph still has potential when he gets healthy. The deadline deals have had a big impact on the Giants' winning two titles. Sure, the Carlos Beltran deal was a disaster because they frankly gave up too much, and then Beltran became injured and they were unable to re-sign him. But back in 2010 the Giants picked up two "ham and egger" relief pitchers named Javier Lopez and Ramon Ramirez. The pair posted 1.42 and 0.67 ERA's the last two months of the season. Think that was important in a year in which the Giants made the playoffs only on the last day of the 2010 regular season? The cost? Lopez, who has no allowed just one home run in his 116 innings as a Giant, was picked up for John Bowker and Joey Martinez. Bowker went on to only 109 more plate appearances before moving to Japan. Martinez pitched six more major league games and has a 6.23 ERA in AAA this year. Ramirez was acquired from the Red Sox for minor league pitcher Daniel Turpen. It never became Turpen time. The plan when the Giants acquired Beltran was to make the playoffs and then re-sign Beltran. It all went south with a Beltran injury, and neither happened. I felt at that time that Beltran's sketchy injury history made him a big risk in free agency, but the Cardinals were able to sign him with only two years of risk, and that risk has paid off handsomely. In short, almost every thing that could have gone wrong with the Beltran deal could have, but thankfully Brian Sabean didn't stop being a wheeler and dealer. Only when he was dealing Wheeler has he failed. Randy is right that the Giants have few position prospects in the minors. As you point out, Mark, they do have some pitchers. I believe a recent ranking had the Giants 26th among the 30 teams in minor league strength. That bothers me a little bit, but I am assuaged by: . Sabean's knack of turning chaffe-like minor league prospects into wheaty and meaty deadline deals. . The Giants' minor league strength being in starting pitching, which is the most sought-after commodity in baseball. . Arguably the Giants' top two position prospects, Gary Brown and Joe Panik, are in AAA and AA and could conceivably be ready as soon as next season -- or they might be involved in acquiring a pitcher at the deadline. Allen threw out the possibility of the pair going for Houston's Bud Norris, who has expressed a keen desire to join his childhood favorite Giants. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1860&page=1#12129#ixzz2Xc9zTpa1 |
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Jun 29, 2013 13:31:19 GMT -5
Rog - Let me ask you this: How would you have suggested the Giants develop Gary differently than they have?
Dood - Let me answer this way...what Giants draft picks taken after 2008 have made significant contributions? I don't consider either Belt or Crawford to have met that criteria. They have been on the roster but their numbers are mediocre at best. Either the scouts are terrible or the development has been subpar. Something needs to change in order to better strengthen the pool of talent in our minor league system.
~Dood
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Post by allenreed on Jun 29, 2013 14:41:15 GMT -5
Allen -- Yes. We've won two of the past three championships. By all means, let's make changes. Rog -- The best business developers take the position that if it's not broken, break it. Clearly the Giants have been doing some things right, and I suspect they are looking every day at ways they can improve further. Allen- Evidently they didn't feel that way prior to this season, when they largely stood pat. I was talking about the decision makers, not the players. From a player standpoint, you have to constantly be evolving. If the deal will improve your team, make it. |
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donk
New Member
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Post by donk on Jun 29, 2013 18:34:38 GMT -5
lots of confusion here, some of the deals which people rate so high was salary dumps by the other team to get rid of players who were not performing any where their norm....Scutaro, Lopez, Ramirez,,,guys,especially Culberson were lucky to have a job....Scutaro was a desperate addition because iof his age and FA status....the big trade was a complete bust giving Wheeler for a rental....the problem was that he was the only starting pitcher in their minors that was close to being able to step in for one of the Giants 5 major starters.....they got away with only 5 starters until this year, and it upset the whole organization when Vogey went down...winning teams have to keep improving,,,the Giants didn't in 2011 and payed the price...they stood pat this year and they have painted themselves into a corner...they might turn around to be sellers in July instead of buyers....the problem with the Giants and rookies is that Bochy doesn't seerm to like young players, he shuttles them in and out of the lineup until they fail....there are very few players that can develop without playing every day for some length of time...yes, they make mistakes and many times fail, but give them a chance...some of the vets you have out there are really not all that good.....
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Post by allenreed on Jun 29, 2013 22:16:49 GMT -5
I could see the Giants shopping some guys. Timmy and Zito of course, but I'd also put Pablo and Affeldt out there and see what kind of response I got. Affeldt's inattention to the runner in the ninth today was flat inexcusable. Pablo continues to flail at pitches outside the strike zone while his waistline continues to grow and grow. Not saying I'm bent on trading him mind you, but I'd put him on the hook and see if I got any bites.
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donk
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Post by donk on Jun 29, 2013 23:04:59 GMT -5
I would think there are very few untouchables on the Giants...Posey, Cain, MadBum, and Romo...I woild think they have to trade Tim because signing him to a new contract is going to be difficult...big gamble for a long term contract..,.,.as much as I like Pablo, the Giants can't control him and I am afraid he is going to have serious health problems....Belt is another borderline guy...he has a million dollar glove and a two bit fielding brain...he leaves his position too many times and he is a good base stealer and a poor base runner...the outfield is a mess of mediocre ball players who were on the way out of baseball when ther Giants picked them up....Blanco can get to the ball, but his throwing is getting worse as the season goes on...it probably wouldn't have ended any different, but I would have liked to have seen Perez in CF on the last play of the game...,.he has the arm to make it close.....I think you fans are wrong in growling about who came up from Fresno and who didn't ... the guys who came up all earned a crack...they had the best stats on the team...by far...Pill was ripping the ball and yet they couldn't give him astretch to see if he had improved and could play in the big time....the same goes for all the others...
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Post by sharksrog on Jun 30, 2013 10:22:35 GMT -5
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Post by sharksrog on Jun 30, 2013 10:24:05 GMT -5
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Post by sharksrog on Jun 30, 2013 10:26:25 GMT -5
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Post by sharksrog on Jun 30, 2013 10:37:05 GMT -5
Rog - Let me ask you this: How would you have suggested the Giants develop Gary differently than they have? Dood - Let me answer this way...what Giants draft picks taken after 2008 have made significant contributions? I don't consider either Belt or Crawford to have met that criteria. They have been on the roster but their numbers are mediocre at best. Either the scouts are terrible or the development has been subpar. Something needs to change in order to better strengthen the pool of talent in our minor league system. Rog -- I understand your point, but there aren't all that many players drafted in the bottom third of the draft or below after 2008 who have made much of a contribution for ANY team. Zach Wheeler was the Giants' 2009 choice, and even though he was coming out of high school, he appears ready to make a contribution. Unfortunately it is for the Mets, not the Dodgers. Gary Brown was the Giants' top choice in 2010, and you have told us you believe he will become a very, very good player. I agree with you that the Giants haven't been particularly successful beyond their high first round picks, but let's look at their four top 10 picks: 2006 -- Tim Lincecum #10. Aside from Clayton Kershaw and Evan Longoria, which players drafted that year have contributed as much as Tim? Pretty darn pick -- and one considered to be risky. 2007 -- Madison Bumgarner #10. Which players from this draft have contributed more than Mad Bum, even though it is just six years later and he was drafted out of high school? 2008 -- Buster Posey #5. Anyone else from that draft who is better? 2009 -- Zack Wheeler #6. Zach was the #6 prospect in baseball entering this season, and now he is in the bigs. The Giants had high picks in four straight seasons, and they hit a grand slam. Is there any other team in baseball whose picks those four seasons COMPARE with the Giants' haul with these four? Give the players drafted after 2008 time to develop. If Gary Brown is as good as you think (or at least thought) he is, we should start seeing results soon. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1860&page=1#ixzz2XiJPfCCu |
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Post by sharksrog on Jun 30, 2013 11:03:27 GMT -5
Allen -- Affeldt's inattention to the runner in the ninth today was flat inexcusable. Rog -- I traveled back to the Bay Area yesterday and didn't see any of the game except the final pitch. Of course I don't know anything about the game except stats, but I looked at the open base and the count and told my girlfriend "breaking ball at the feet." I haven't yet looked to see the pitch sequence, but I'll bet the breaker at the feet would have been a better call than the fastball (and I'm talking about process, not results, which clearly weren't good). Now that I have looked at the pitch sequence, I wouldn't say the change up was a horrible call at all. It just should have been outside and a little lower. It was the first change up he had thrown, which should have been a good thing if he got it where he wanted it. But what could have been wrong with a breaking ball at the feet? Why throw a strike with first base open and Yorvit Torrealba on deck? If the curve ball misses and isn't swung at, maybe the change up on 3-2, which is a little more of a fastball count. Anyway, one could argue for any of Affelt's pitches in that situation. And if the pitch worked, they would be "right." If another pitch DIDN'T work, as was the case here, they would be "right." But my point is that my assessment of the situation based only on the count and runner situation probably was as good a shot as any other. Maybe that's what the stats said.  Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1860&page=1#ixzz2XiMCFyM0 |
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Post by allenreed on Jun 30, 2013 11:40:22 GMT -5
..Belt is another borderline guy...he has a million dollar glove and a two bit fielding brain...he leaves his position too many times and he is a good base stealer and a poor base runner.
Allen- Can't say that I've seen more than an isolated instance or two of him leaving his position. He doesn't make a habit of it like say Will Clark did. He has made a mistake or five on the bases.
..the outfield is a mess of mediocre ball players who were on the way out of baseball when ther Giants picked them up.
Allen- Can't say I'd put Pagan or Pence in this category.
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Post by sharksrog on Jun 30, 2013 12:11:28 GMT -5
..the outfield is a mess of mediocre ball players who were on the way out of baseball when ther Giants picked them up. Allen- Can't say I'd put Pagan or Pence in this category. Rog -- The Giants' outfield is flawed, but it has some depth. Hunter Pence is the best. He hits for some average and power, and is mostly a mistake hitter who can be fooled outside the zone. He hustles like crazy, is a so-so outfielder, and has shown this season he can steal bases (apparently having improved his speed by using the caveman diet). Angel Pagan is a so-so fielder who is also something of a so-so hitter who hits well when he gets hot. Can lead off, but doesn't get on enough. Can hit lower in the order, but he doesn't have a lot of power. Gregor Blanco and Andres Torres form a decent platoon in left field. Both are excellent fielders, although Torres has somehow been shaky this season, and fast runners. Blanco hits righties well, and Torres hits southpaws, so they complement each other nicely. Juan Perez is an outstanding fielder with great speed whose hitting is a question mark. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1860&page=1#12168#ixzz2Xihza6NV |
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donk
New Member
Posts: 23
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Post by donk on Jun 30, 2013 12:48:12 GMT -5
..the outfield is a mess of mediocre ball players who were on the way out of baseball when ther Giants picked them up. Allen- Can't say I'd put Pagan or Pence in this category. Rog -- The Giants' outfield is flawed, but it has some depth. Hunter Pence is the best. He hits for some average and power, and is mostly a mistake hitter who can be fooled outside the zone. He hustles like crazy, is a so-so outfielder, and has shown this season he can steal bases (apparently having improved his speed by using the caveman diet). Angel Pagan is a so-so fielder who is also something of a so-so hitter who hits well when he gets hot. Can lead off, but doesn't get on enough. Can hit lower in the order, but he doesn't have a lot of power. Gregor Blanco and Andres Torres form a decent platoon in left field. Both are excellent fielders, although Torres has somehow been shaky this season, and fast runners. Blanco hits righties well, and Torres hits southpaws, so they complement each other nicely. Juan Perez is an outstanding fielder with great speed whose hitting is a question mark. dk..pence is the best but he hardly scares anyone...I would like a corner OF who has to be pitched around in certain spots. Blanco was dirt in AAA in 2011..played in both leagues and combined for a .201 average...came to camp as a fill in for exhibition game because of work in the winter league ...ate some mirical growth and made the team....poor throwing arm and has trouble using his speed.. Torres hit.230 with 20% K's...better RH, but as a corner OF, no power, usually a no=no... Pagan is a mystery to me...sometimes has a far away look and misses routine plays....lacks power for LF... |
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donk
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Post by donk on Jun 30, 2013 12:55:11 GMT -5
Don -- the problem with the Giants and rookies is that Bochy doesn't seerm to like young players Rog -- Yep. He just HATED guys like Lincecum, Bumgarner, Posey, Sandoval, Belt, Crawford and others. dk..Posey failed to impress and was sent back to AAA...Sandoval was bumped out of the starting lineup and missed most of the WS....Belt and Crawford have been in and out of the order but were kept around because the failure of others...Lincecum made it...good for him, but who else did they have?  |
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donk
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Post by donk on Jun 30, 2013 13:20:26 GMT -5
Don -- the problem with the Giants and rookies is that Bochy doesn't seerm to like young players Rog -- Yep. He just HATED guys like Lincecum, Bumgarner, Posey, Sandoval, Belt, Crawford and others. dk all but Lincecum and MadBum are guys who have not received the type of treatment they may have deserved...Posey was returned to the minors, Sandoval was allowerd to baloon and got benched and missed most of the world series #1, Belt continues to be in and out of the batting order, Crawford was juggled around...however, all of them are still around because the Giants really didn't have anyone to replace them as a regular... |
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donk
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Post by donk on Jun 30, 2013 13:43:10 GMT -5
as an add on...Belt hits much better against LH'ers than RH'ers and yet he is benched against LH'ers when ever Bochy has the chance.....
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Jun 30, 2013 13:46:53 GMT -5
Rog -- I understand your point, but there aren't all that many players drafted in the bottom third of the draft or below after 2008 who have made much of a contribution for ANY team. Zach Wheeler was the Giants' 2009 choice, and even though he was coming out of high school, he appears ready to make a contribution. Unfortunately it is for the Mets, not the Dodgers.
Dood - And why would a fan who claims to be a Giants fan consider it UNfortunate that Wheeler will not be contributing for the bums? You remind me of those racists who defend themselves by saying "some of my best friends are black (or hispanic or asian etc)." Is it any wonder we keep calling you Roger the Dodger?
Gary Brown was the Giants' top choice in 2010, and you have told us you believe he will become a very, very good player.
Dood - I believed that in 2011 and even though he is not from HS, he hasn't yet cracked the big league roster. So it seems to me it's more of a development issue and not a drafting issue. Once the Giants minor league instructors and coaches get their hands on draft picks, that's when the trouble starts. Bottom line...they are not doing a good job of preparing these players to contribute at the big league level.
2009 -- Zack Wheeler #6. Zach was the #6 prospect in baseball entering this season, and now he is in the bigs.
Dood - the question is...how would he be doing if he stayed in the Giants system? No guarantee he wouldnt be doing the same thing Brown is doing. Injuries to outfielders and still no callup for Gary. I blame the development team. I saw Gary's talent in San Jose...but somewhere between then and now, his development got stunted.
26th out of 30 teams in Minor League talent. It isn't bad drafting, it's bad developing.
~Dood
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Jun 30, 2013 14:08:34 GMT -5
Allen -- Affeldt's inattention to the runner in the ninth today was flat inexcusable.
Rog -- I traveled back to the Bay Area yesterday and didn't see any of the game except the final pitch. Of course I don't know anything about the game except stats, but I looked at the open base and the count and told my girlfriend "breaking ball at the feet." I haven't yet looked to see the pitch sequence, but I'll bet the breaker at the feet would have been a better call than the fastball (and I'm talking about process, not results, which clearly weren't good).
Dood - I watched the entire game and I was bothered by two opposing and yet critically similar situations and how each team was able to handle it. Before the game, Kruk and Kuip described in great detail how critical scoring first is for the Giants. They had a runner on 3rd with 1 out in the first inning and Posey at the plate. He flailed at a low cutter (or slider, not sure which) for the strikeout. De La Rosa had just thrown that same pitch in the two pitches prior to the payoff. You just can NOT strike out in that situation. It was a mental mistake. Jorge was clearly not going to give in to Posey and Buster had to be willing to take the walk and trust his teammate to get the job done. He didn't and the Giants wasted a golden opportunity to take the early lead, which was critical, given how Cain pitched.
Then in the 9th, had the Giants scored in the first, it would have been Sergio on the mound and not Affeldt. But the problem I have with Jeremy lately is less with his own ineptness and more with Bochy's stubborn insistence on staying with him in critical spots, or even to replace guys like Rosario with Jeremy when they get a base runner on, only to see Affeldt blow it again. It's getting to be a broken record.
~Dood
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Post by allenreed on Jun 30, 2013 16:33:31 GMT -5
Just a footnote on Wheeler. He was torched today by Washington, giving up five runs on six hits (and two homers) in 4.2 innings. His ERA is now 5.06.
On the other hand Paul Maholm won his ninth today against AZ, giving up just two in 6.2 innings on eight hits.
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Post by sharksrog on Jul 1, 2013 1:20:30 GMT -5
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Post by sharksrog on Jul 1, 2013 1:26:55 GMT -5
Rog -- Yep. He just HATED guys like Lincecum, Bumgarner, Posey, Sandoval, Belt, Crawford and others. dk..Posey failed to impress and was sent back to AAA... Rog -- Posey was brought up in September, but I'm not sure I would say he failed to impress. Don't forget that had the Giants kept him up, he would have been eligible to become a free agent a year earlier. Don -- Sandoval was bumped out of the starting lineup and missed most of the WS.... Rog -- He was overweight and awful. You've noticed that he has played almost alll his career as long as he was healthy. Don -- Belt and Crawford have been in and out of the order but were kept around because the failure of others Rog -- Both players have had trouble hitting consistently. Crawford has started a high percentage of the games beginning in 2012. Kind of tough for him to play all the time as a rookie when he hit around .200 during the season. Notice that the Giants' youngsters have for the most part played according to how they have performed? As you mention, some of them have "overplayed" due to need. (Think Manny Burriss in particular.) Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1860&page=1#ixzz2XlwlfhGb |
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Post by sharksrog on Jul 1, 2013 1:31:05 GMT -5
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