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Jun 6, 2013 13:45:13 GMT -5
Post by sharksrog on Jun 6, 2013 13:45:13 GMT -5
With all the talk about umpires in general and our old friend Marquez in particular, I'm surprised no one has mentioned what to me certainly appeared to be a missed call on the Sandoval to Scutaro line drive double play.
Maybe the rule I am thinking of applies only to HIT balls and not thrown ones, but Scutaro certainly didn't release the ball voluntarily after making the wonderful catch-and-tag-the-bag of Sandoval's errant toss.
Maybe someone else here knows if the rule is different on catching a throw than it is on catching a fly ball, but I thought the play was called incorrectly.
It even appeared that Marquez was making a motion as if saying that Scutaro dropped the ball while making a throw, not while making the catch. That frequently applies on a dropped double play pivot throw, but didn't seem to apply on this play.
Marquez seemed so focused on Scutaro's foot knicking the bag that he may not have even seen the drop itself. Hard to say what happened, and I'm not even sure the rule was misapplied, but the announcers also questioned the call.
I myself was shocked that Scutaro had been able to touch the bag while corraling what was just a horrible throw. I was hoping the ball wouldn't sail into right field, and was just shocked when the out call made it clear his foot had somehow found the bag.
Just the play Scutaro himself made is worthy of discussion.
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Jun 6, 2013 15:23:59 GMT -5
Post by allenreed on Jun 6, 2013 15:23:59 GMT -5
I agree wih you, but I didn't want to kick Marquez around anymore. The opposing manager didn't seem to argue it much, maybe he knows Marquez as well. Thank goodness the series ended before Alfonso got behind the plate.
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Post by sharksrog on Jun 7, 2013 2:14:27 GMT -5
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Jun 7, 2013 11:15:21 GMT -5
Post by allenreed on Jun 7, 2013 11:15:21 GMT -5
By now, he probably figures, "What's the point?" Nothing's going to change. Marquez won't be held accountable. He isn't going to get any better. Just look at it as another obstacle you have to conquer.
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Jun 7, 2013 12:00:31 GMT -5
Post by sharksrog on Jun 7, 2013 12:00:31 GMT -5
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Jun 7, 2013 13:28:03 GMT -5
Post by klaiggeb on Jun 7, 2013 13:28:03 GMT -5
With all the talk about umpires in general and our old friend Marquez in particular, I'm surprised no one has mentioned what to me certainly appeared to be a missed call on the Sandoval to Scutaro line drive double play.
---boly says---
I didn't comment, Rog, because I thought he got the play right.
He DID hold it long enough. It only popped out as he was getting up.
boly
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Jun 7, 2013 14:25:32 GMT -5
Post by sharksrog on Jun 7, 2013 14:25:32 GMT -5
Boly -- I didn't comment, Rog, because I thought he got the play right. He DID hold it long enough. It only popped out as he was getting up. Rog -- It appeared to me that the ball popped loose as Marco roled. If the same rule applies that would apply to a catch of a line drive or fly ball, the ball needs to be removed voluntarily in order to complete the catch. I presume that same rule applies to this type of play, since the judgment on a muffed double play pivot hinges on whether the ball was dropped before (involuntarily) or after (voluntarily) the ball is removed from the glove to make the throw. In this case I certainly didn't feel the ball came out voluntarily. I don't think Marco intended for the ball to come out, and he certainly wasn't trying to make a throw. Back 60 years or so ago, Willie Mays made a game-ending catch against the Dodgers while running into the wall, knocking himself out. When Willie came to, both manager Leo Durocher and the Dodgers' Jackie Robinson were beside Willie. Willie asked Jackie, "Man, what are YOU doing out here?" "I just wanted to make sure you had held onto the ball," replied Jackie. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1810&page=1#11492#ixzz2VYjffDHG
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Umpires
Jun 13, 2013 0:40:37 GMT -5
Post by allenreed on Jun 13, 2013 0:40:37 GMT -5
More wonderful umpiring tonight. I did see something new though, two blown calls on one play. Mike Muchlinski and Tim McClelland combining for the parlay on a double play ball hit by Brandon Crawford in the second. Problem was, the Pirate shortstop never came near the bag at second, and Crawford beat the rap at first. Instead of two out and a runner at third, we should have had the bases loaded and no outs. Neither call was really close or difficult, yet they missed them both.
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Umpires
Jun 13, 2013 10:51:21 GMT -5
Post by klaiggeb on Jun 13, 2013 10:51:21 GMT -5
More wonderful umpiring tonight. I did see something new though, two blown calls on one play. Mike Muchlinski and Tim McClelland combining for the parlay on a double play ball hit by Brandon Crawford in the second. Problem was, the Pirate shortstop never came near the bag at second, and Crawford beat the rap at first. Instead of two out and a runner at third, we should have had the bases loaded and no outs. Neither call was really close or difficult, yet they missed them both.
---boly says---
totally agree, Allen; totally.
As Rosanne Rosannadanna used to say; "It's always something..."
I get the "in the area play at 2B;" I disagree, but I get it when it is to prevent an injury.
But that wasn't even close to a collison. Not even close.
And the play on Crawford at 1B?
Again, not close.
Then again, I've begun to expect horse crap like this from the umpires, becuse it's happening all too frequently, and getting worse year-by-year.
As you have said before Allen, it's not going to change because they are NOT held accountable.
boly
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Umpires
Jun 13, 2013 10:55:07 GMT -5
Post by Islandboagie on Jun 13, 2013 10:55:07 GMT -5
Rog -- It appeared to me that the ball popped loose as Marco roled. If the same rule applies that would apply to a catch of a line drive or fly ball, the ball needs to be removed voluntarily in order to complete the catch.
I presume that same rule applies to this type of play, since the judgment on a muffed double play pivot hinges on whether the ball was dropped before (involuntarily) or after (voluntarily) the ball is removed from the glove to make the throw.
In this case I certainly didn't feel the ball came out voluntarily. I don't think Marco intended for the ball to come out, and he certainly wasn't trying to make a throw.
Boagie- I'm inclined to agree with you, Rog, although I don't know the exact rule for infielders making a force out. I know the rule for first base, the first baseman has to have control of the ball for the out, I'd assume the same for any of the infielders, but I'm not sure. If I were the umpire (and I didn't have a bias) I would have called the runner safe.
However, I can't quite understand how you can argue this judgement call, but make excuses for obvious blown calls by umpires.
If the play were reversed on the Giants I wouldn't have been that upset, it's a judgement call. I believe Marquez felt that the ball came loose when Scutaro did his roll. At that point he had already caught the ball and stepped on 2nd base. If that is his assessment, I can understand how he made that call.
That's the thing about most judgement calls, you can look at them over and over again and not have a definite answer either way.
Kind of like that infield fly that was called during the NLDS last year. Many people were upset with that call, but I think he made the right call. The shortstop was camped under it and there would have been an easy force out at third. Others see it differently. But on either side there's no real clear answer.
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Jun 13, 2013 12:57:35 GMT -5
Post by sharksrog on Jun 13, 2013 12:57:35 GMT -5
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Jun 13, 2013 13:07:04 GMT -5
Post by klaiggeb on Jun 13, 2013 13:07:04 GMT -5
Boly -- Then again, I've begun to expect horse crap like this from the umpires, becuse it's happening all too frequently, and getting worse year-by-year.
As you have said before Allen, it's not going to change because they are NOT held accountable.
Rog -- Haven't we seen umpires suspended on occasion? We don't really know how they are held accountable, do we?
---boly says---
rog, I can only, and I mean ONLY think of one, recent example.
And even if there are more, they are tooo far and few; much toooooo few.
Angel Marquez HASN'T been punished, and thus NOT held accountable, and for the crapp he should have been.
Hey. Umpiring is a bugger of a job.
So is playing.
Players get cut, or outright released, or sent back to the minors.
Umpires? Once they reach the show.. they're locked in place.
And that isn't right.
boly
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Umpires
Jun 13, 2013 13:20:37 GMT -5
Post by sharksrog on Jun 13, 2013 13:20:37 GMT -5
Boagie -- However, I can't quite understand how you can argue this judgement call, but make excuses for obvious blown calls by umpires. Rog -- Because I search for the truth, Boagie. On this play, you and I seem to be the only ones who think the call was missed. There have also been plays on which I couldn't really tell for sure if the call was missed, although others seemed to be sure themselves. I remember a ball Ryan Theriot hit down the right field line that was called foul. It was probably fair, but it was DARN close. I looked many times at the replay frame by frame and couldn't be sure. How was it that so many others thought the ball was CLEARLY fair? Worse, the umpire was criticized for not watching the ball. IIRC he had to move to avoid being hit, but the replay showed nothing that indicated he wasn't watching the ball when it went over the bag. Other times I agree the call was missed, but point out the difficulties the umpire may have had. When someone appears to have completely missed a call or made a horrible strategy decision, I try to look at the factors that may have gone into what appears to have been a dumb or flat-out missed call or decision. I do try to look at all sides of a situation, and when I form a decision, I try to have considered as many factors as possible. An example would be my recent discussion with Boly on Buster Posey behind the plate. I tried to look at all sides of the situation and came to the following conclusions: . I agreed with Boly that Buster makes mechanical mistakes. That was an opinion on my part, but it agreed with Boly, and I think it was a valid opinion. . I pointed out that despite those mechanical mistakes, Buster has allowed fewer passed balls and wild pitches than most catchers. That isn't an opinion; it is a fact. . I pointed out that the numbers DID indicate that Buster had declined this season. That Buster has declined this season is an opinion (again, on which Boly and I agree). Buster's declining numbers don't prove that opinion, but they do support it. There are many sides to a situation. I try to see as many as possible. We each have our own areas in which we may know more than others on the board. Boly is the mechanics guy. Don is the history guy. I am the stats and umpiring guy. You have your own areas of expertise. And those things give each of us a slightly different perspective. I try to learn as much and examine as much as I can here. I have learned from each and every poster on this board. And part of the way I have learned is by trying to look at as many sides of an issue as I can think of. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1810&page=1#11673#ixzz2W7WYHRoj
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Jun 13, 2013 13:26:26 GMT -5
Post by sharksrog on Jun 13, 2013 13:26:26 GMT -5
I'm not a fan of unions, and I certainly think workers should be held accountable. I don't know how umpires are reprimanded or fined. I don't know what it would take for an umpire to be fined or demoted.
I do know that officials study tape a lot. If they miss a call, they usually find out about it and, one would hope, learn from it.
Obviously umpiring isn't as easy as it looks, or they wouldn't miss as many calls as they do. These umpires are at the top of their profession, and still they miss calls. Why is that?
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donk
New Member
Posts: 23
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Umpires
Jun 13, 2013 13:37:42 GMT -5
Post by donk on Jun 13, 2013 13:37:42 GMT -5
mmm...I was the first one to rail against Posey's mechanics...Tim's mechanics.....etc.. and that makes me the history guy?
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Jun 13, 2013 14:06:17 GMT -5
Post by sharksrog on Jun 13, 2013 14:06:17 GMT -5
You make a good point here, Don. I should have mentioned you in the mechanics area as well. I do feel though that Boly's knowledge in this area is deeper than yours, and that he's more objective.
But, yeah, I should have given you more credit than I did. On the other hand, I probably know the 2nd-most history of anyone on this board, and I didn't mention myself in that regard.
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Jun 13, 2013 16:13:26 GMT -5
Post by Islandboagie on Jun 13, 2013 16:13:26 GMT -5
Rog -- Because I search for the truth, Boagie. On this play, you and I seem to be the only ones who think the call was missed.
Boagie- Well it is a Giants board, if that call was against the Giants they'd be screaming for Marquez's head again. However, I don't think Marquez missed the call, he saw it clearly, was in good position, and could have very well gotten the call right. The only issue I had is that it appeared Scutaro didn't hold onto the ball as long as I would have deemed necessary for an out. Again, that's all judgement. Mine just happens to be different than that of Marquez, and there's really no evidence to prove me or him right, or wrong.
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Umpires
Jun 13, 2013 17:58:25 GMT -5
Post by allenreed on Jun 13, 2013 17:58:25 GMT -5
Rog -- Haven't we seen umpires suspended on occasion? We don't really know how they are held accountable, do we?
Allen- I think one was suspended this year for one game because he didn't know the rules, which is inexcusable for an umpire. I'm not sure if he got the Lisa Lerner type suspension (with pay).
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Umpires
Jun 14, 2013 17:34:49 GMT -5
Post by sharksrog on Jun 14, 2013 17:34:49 GMT -5
We have discussed how important angle is and how an official can actually be too CLOSE to the play. Different sport, but here a couple of quotes from former NHL top official Kerry Fraser in The Hockey News. You'll probably like the title of the article, which is "NHL Zebras" and addresses the many complaints about NHL officiating in this year's Stanley Cup Playoffs (the greatest postseason struggle of any of the major sports).
ANGLE: "... It's about positioning," Fraser says. "... Calls that are being missed are being missed because officials don't have a good sighline on the play..."
BEING TOO CLOSE: The article goes on to say, "Fraser believes a referee is asking for trouble if he insists on being right on top of the action."
ACCOUNTABILITY: The article goes on to quote say: "Time and again, NHL fans and media cry for 'accountability,' a term that in many cases connotes a public dressing-down of officials. Well, sorry folks, but that isn't going to happen. (Director of NHL officials and a 23-year veteran himself Terry) Gregson believes in teaching and assisting his pepople behind the scenes, just as most NHL teams deliver internal discipline behind closed doors. Besides, he said, the savvy observer easily can discern the performances level of referees and linesmen simply by looking at which officials make the cut for playoff assignments."
Gregson adds "We'll always be frustrated with the human element (in officiating)"
""'I get so tired of hearing there's no accountability' Gregson says. 'We have lots of accountability. I don't think it needs to be a public hanging or public humulation."
That's how the article ends. The Hockey News isn't shy about criticizing the game. While the lockout was going on, they published a very comprehsive article in which they asked players, coaches, officials and announcers how the game could be improved. I was almost shocked at how many ideas the responders came up with, and how good they were.
Hockey itself has the most efficient use of instant replay of any of the major sports.
So what is my point? My point is that there is much more that goes into officiating than most observers, well, observe.
The Hockey News didn't skirt the officiating issues accentuated in this year's playoffs. They sub-headlined their well-rounded article "Officials have been the center of attention all too often this post-season. Two former veteran referees offer reasons why the men in stripes are squarely in the fans' corss-hairs."
THN put its top hockey writer, Adam Proteau, on the story, and they seemed to take a balance approach. The article says, "In sum, the NHL officiating industry is anythying but ideal, but that is the way it has been since the league was formed. ... Nobody is going to agree with all the decisions that are made, but to imagine there will be a day when that is true is to ignore reality. They're doing their utmost to be accurate and to improve."
When one realizes that the "best of the best" officiate at the major league level, just as the "best of the best" play there, and that many calls are STILL missed (or perceived to be missed), one begins to realize that we're talking about human beings here.
Show me the basketball player who never misses a free throw, the baseball player who never makes an error, or the football player who never misses a block or tackle, never fumbles the ball and never drops a pass, and I'll show you -- well, a fantasy world played by robots, not human beings.
And show me a sports official who never misses a call -- or even a lot of them -- and I'll just die happily and go to heaven.
Frankly, that happens far too seldom when officials are discussed.
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Umpires
Jun 15, 2013 0:17:14 GMT -5
Post by Islandboagie on Jun 15, 2013 0:17:14 GMT -5
The difference here is the player who misses the tackle, or a free throw, or makes an error too often, gets demoted, or released, and replaced with someone who can be more effective.
Angel Hernandez hasn't been demoted. Angel Hernandez can miss a call, miss the replay when it's clear his initial call was incorrect, doesn't have to talk to the media about it, and isn't fined or given a suspension by Major League Baseball. He is not held accountable.
Again, Rog, nobody here has said an umpire needs to be perfect 100% of the time, so I'm not really sure why you keep bringing up the free throw analogy. Me, Allen and others think that umpires should be held to the same amount of accountability that the players or anyone in any profession should be held to. If you are continuously bad and refuse to acknowledge it, there's a problem, and that problem needs to be handled. I've worked with people like this, and if there's no accountability, the problem only gets worse.
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Jun 15, 2013 12:38:45 GMT -5
Post by allenreed on Jun 15, 2013 12:38:45 GMT -5
Me, Allen and others think that umpires should be held to the same amount of accountability that the players or anyone in any profession should be held to.
Allen- The only ones held less accountable are the Attorney General and those working at the IRS. At least Hernandez hasn't been promoted.
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Umpires
Jun 15, 2013 21:22:39 GMT -5
Post by allenreed on Jun 15, 2013 21:22:39 GMT -5
More crackerjack umpiring today. Paul Immel missed one at first in which Posey got his foot back on the bag before the throw arrived, and Bruce Dreckman called Blanco out at second after he'd easily stolen it. Both calls were easy to the point of being obvious. Since Abreu followed with a hit, the call cost us a run. In addition, Jerry Meals was horses*** on balls and strikes. For both teams. Something has to be done. There has to be guys in the minors that are better than this. Seniority does not justify incompetence.
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Umpires
Jun 16, 2013 10:17:30 GMT -5
Post by klaiggeb on Jun 16, 2013 10:17:30 GMT -5
More crackerjack umpiring today. Paul Immel missed one at first in which Posey got his foot back on the bag before the throw arrived, and Bruce Dreckman called Blanco out at second after he'd easily stolen it. Both calls were easy to the point of being obvious. Since Abreu followed with a hit, the call cost us a run. In addition, Jerry Meals was horses*** on balls and strikes. For both teams. Something has to be done. There has to be guys in the minors that are better than this. Seniority does not justify incompetence.
---boly says---
Brutal doesn't even begin to describe Meals behind the plate.
Look, ya'all know I'm an umpire hater. I am.
They see what they want to see. Period. That's where I stand.
But I'm also honest about them.
When I see a call, such as a check swing, and the replay shows I'm wrong, even when watching the game alone, I fess up.
Same as a play in the field.
Same as the strike zone.
I was complaining about the strike zones for both teams yesterday.
But.. and here's the thing, it was OBVIOUS to me that there were 2 different strike zones; one for Atlanta, and one for the Giants.
It was just like old times; a strike zone for Glavin, Maddox and Smoltz, and one for everyone else.
Both strize zones were awful. Ours was worse.
boly
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Umpires
Jun 16, 2013 12:20:20 GMT -5
Post by allenreed on Jun 16, 2013 12:20:20 GMT -5
I think what rankles me the most is that these guys can't maintain a consistent strike zone. Forget about calling the strike zone as it is defined in the rule book. I've given up on that. But these guys call different zones from pitch to pitch. Throw the pitch once and it's a strike, throw the same pitch again and it's a ball. How can you pitch or hit with that going on? Krukow said Meals won't call a strike unless the catcher catches it between his knees. If that's true, he should have been fired years ago. Nowhere in the rules does it specify where or how the catcher catches the ball in order for it to be a strike. The other night he said that one ump was hesitant to call a third strike. Again, if true, that ump should be gone. Nowhere in the rules does it say the strike zone changes according to the count.
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Jun 17, 2013 17:10:30 GMT -5
Post by sharksrog on Jun 17, 2013 17:10:30 GMT -5
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Jun 18, 2013 9:58:36 GMT -5
Post by Islandboagie on Jun 18, 2013 9:58:36 GMT -5
Boly- Brutal doesn't even begin to describe Meals behind the plate.
Boagie- No question, It's much easier to eat when your meals are ON the plate.
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Jun 18, 2013 10:15:12 GMT -5
Post by klaiggeb on Jun 18, 2013 10:15:12 GMT -5
Boly -- But.. and here's the thing, it was OBVIOUS to me that there were 2 different strike zones; one for Atlanta, and one for the Giants.
Rog -- I'm curious as to how you felt the zones differed. If I get time, I'll check it out on MLB.com's Gameday.
It was just like old times; a strike zone for Glavin, Maddox and Smoltz, and one for everyone else.
---boly says---
It looked to me that the Braves were getting ALL/MOST of the corner pitches; just like Glavine, smoltz and Maddox used to.
I thought Giant pitchers were getting squeezed, and I'm sick and tired of this crap from the morons in blue.
boly
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Jun 18, 2013 10:15:15 GMT -5
Post by Islandboagie on Jun 18, 2013 10:15:15 GMT -5
Seriously though...I'm as much of an umpire critic as anyone, but the Giants poor play, lack of pitching depth, bone-headed errors, and cold bats at times is the one and ONLY reason they're now hovering just over .500. Good teams play through bad calls and "bad luck", thus far the Giants have let those occurrences bury them. I'm not very optimistic until they turn that around.
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Jun 18, 2013 11:09:29 GMT -5
Post by allenreed on Jun 18, 2013 11:09:29 GMT -5
Make no mistake, my assertion isn't that the umps are costing us games or have it in for us, though the missed call on Blanco's steal attempt really hurt the other night. The umps are bad for all teams and too many calls are missed in every game. It seems that balls and strikes are called just willy-nilly now. No set strike zone at all.
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Jun 18, 2013 13:44:28 GMT -5
Post by sharksrog on Jun 18, 2013 13:44:28 GMT -5
Boly mentioned the play where Buster jumped off the first bag but managed to touch it on the way down. The umpire was in the proper position, and it would have been nice for him to get the call right, but there's no way he had better than a guess given the angle.
Sometimes it's inexplicable how a call is missed, but it was easy to see why on that one.
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