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Post by sharksrog on May 28, 2013 15:21:44 GMT -5
Allen- You don't seem to have much of an understanding of vision. Unless Marquez has some kind of visual problem, he (like most people) can see things better if he's closer to them. Rog -- OK. Using that logic, Marquez saw the play much better than any of us, since the camera was much farther away. Let me explain it this way, Allen. Let's suppose you and I are standing nose to nose. There is a guy behind you, and suddenly your knee buckles forward. I'm inches from you, but I can't see whether the guy hit the back of your knee and caused you to buckle, or whether you buckled the knee on your own. Conversely, I could be 25 yards away but with a look BETWEEN you and the guy behind you, and I could tell which happened. See, you haven't officiated much. I have never told an official that angle was more important than distance and had him disagree with me. (Of course, I made sure that I was far enough away that he couldn't hear me. And we know officials can't see well enough to read lips.) Hey, I don't know even close to everything, and I readily admit it. Then there are things that I DO know, a lot of which are statistics. A lot of facts ARE statistics. I try to use those facts to back up my opinions. When I see facts that appear to be in conflict with my opinions, I work hard to re-examine those opinions. When I state an opinion, I want to feel confident the facts back it up. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1788&page=1#ixzz2UcUCU58L
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Post by allenreed on May 28, 2013 15:37:45 GMT -5
Boagie -- Allen's opinion of teachers having a harder job than umpires would likely be a popular view amongst even major league umpires. Rog -- My ex-wife and daughter are both very good teachers. But do I think they are better than major league umpires? Highly unlikely. Allen- Not the issue at hand, Barack. The question wasn't which one was better, but which was harder. Let's see, presiding over a game played by 50 millionaires in which the rules are clearly defined and everyone is trying to succeed, or presiding over 30 children, many of whom don't want to be there, aren't interested in hearing what you have to say, and some are intent on creating a discipline problem for you. Many teachers are assaulted in the classroom today. Haven't seen many umpires get assaulted, nor have I seen anyone come onto the field with automatic weapons and start shooting the players.
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Post by allenreed on May 28, 2013 15:54:42 GMT -5
The two questions I would ask are:
. Do you think officiating is truly as easy as you think it is?
Allen- I don't know that I've ever said it was easy, though baseball is pretty easy compared to the other major sports. Ialso doubt that it's as hard as you make it out to be, especially baseball. Football now has too many rules, and pro basketball admits to their officiating being crooked, anyway. . Do you truly think that officials don't care -- deeply?
Allen- I'm sure some do. To some, it's a job. Frankly, I don't think Joe West cares that much. He's been there too long.
Boly could teach me things about teaching and about player mechanics. He knows more than I do. Don could teach me about baseball history. He knows more than I do.
I try to learn from these guys.
Well, guess who knows the most about sports officiating here? For that matter, guess who knows the most about analytics here?
Allen-I'm sure you like to think you do. And again, who knows more isn't really the issue. It's painfully obvious that these guys are doing a horrible job this year, and it has been getting worse for several years now. There simply has to be some kind of standard, and some kind of consequence for poor work. Otherwise the game is in danger of losng its credibility.
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Post by sharksrog on May 28, 2013 16:19:44 GMT -5
Rog -- My ex-wife and daughter are both very good teachers. But do I think they are better than major league umpires? Highly unlikely. Allen- Not the issue at hand, Barack. The question wasn't which one was better, but which was harder. Rog -- First of all, did you think I was black? Your point about the question was a good one, alhtough I addressed the hardness part (Did you think I was a porn star?) later. I don't honestly know whether teaching at the elementary or high school level is harder than umpiring in the majors, but I know it takes a lot more to get selected for the latter than the former. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1788&page=2#11162#ixzz2UcmFcWJK
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Post by sharksrog on May 28, 2013 16:21:04 GMT -5
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Post by allenreed on May 28, 2013 18:37:43 GMT -5
Rog -- My ex-wife and daughter are both very good teachers. But do I think they are better than major league umpires? Highly unlikely. Allen- Not the issue at hand, Barack. The question wasn't which one was better, but which was harder. Rog -- First of all, did you think I was black? Your point about the question was a good one, alhtough I addressed the hardness part (Did you think I was a porn star?) later. Allen- No just vague and evasive when you're trapped. I don't honestly know whether teaching at the elementary or high school level is harder than umpiring in the majors, but I know it takes a lot more to get selected for the latter than the former. Allen- Only because we need more teachers than baseball umpires.
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Post by allenreed on May 28, 2013 23:12:17 GMT -5
I just can't remember the past well enough to say for sure that officiating and playing have gotten better, but I'm not sure why they would be different from almost everything else. Can you?
Allen- Are you speaking solely of sports here? What today is better than it was in our childhood? Public education? National Security? The way people treat each other? The quality of life? The integrity of our elected officials and their appointees? World Peace? When I was a kid , (even a young kid) we could play outside all day long. No more. I don't remember anyone being hacked to death in the street, or being blown up while participating in a foot race. I don't remember people living in doorways or sleeping on the sidewalk. or people driving by and shooting at you just for the heck of it.
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Post by Islandboagie on May 29, 2013 11:17:12 GMT -5
Rog- Let me explain it this way, Allen. Let's suppose you and I are standing nose to nose. There is a guy behind you, and suddenly your knee buckles forward. I'm inches from you, but I can't see whether the guy hit the back of your knee and caused you to buckle, or whether you buckled the knee on your own.
Conversely, I could be 25 yards away but with a look BETWEEN you and the guy behind you, and I could tell which happened.
See, you haven't officiated much. I have never told an official that angle was more important than distance and had him disagree with me.
Boagie- You make a very good case for why umpires should talk to other umpires if they feel they might have been at the wrong angle to make the correct call. As you say, distance isn't as important as angle.
Clearly Marquez was not at a good angle to see if Scutaro was tagged out or not. Both Scutaro, Flannery, Bochy and the fans were upset with the call, at that point a GOOD umpire would have have thought to himself.."hmm, maybe I did miss the angle to see the play" and at least should have talked to the umpire who was covering 2nd base at the time to see if he saw the play at a better angle. This never happened. This failure for umpires to yield to their own ego is what makes people like Allen dislike umpires in general, and I can't really blame him.
By the way, you're only half right when you say angle matters more than distance. On close plays, being close to the play is more important than angle, because sound is also used in determining is a player is safe or out, or if a batter made contact with a pitch in the dirt or not.
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Post by Islandboagie on May 29, 2013 11:35:35 GMT -5
Allen- Are you speaking solely of sports here? What today is better than it was in our childhood? Public education? National Security? The way people treat each other? The quality of life? The integrity of our elected officials and their appointees? World Peace? When I was a kid , (even a young kid) we could play outside all day long. No more. I don't remember anyone being hacked to death in the street, or being blown up while participating in a foot race. I don't remember people living in doorways or sleeping on the sidewalk. or people driving by and shooting at you just for the heck of it.
Boagie- I'm sure it's worse today than it was, but at the same time..I think we hear alot of these stories because of the amount of information we're exposed to through the internet and cable media. I can assure you that when you were a kid there were bombs, guns, corrupt politicians and wars even back then, you just weren't as exposed to it.
What's changed is that both major political parties bend over backwards trying to protect corruption in their own ranks, the weapons or the people who use them, so it feels like nobody's doing anything about it, which imo is likely the case.
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Post by allenreed on May 29, 2013 14:46:30 GMT -5
What has changed (and I have no doubt about this) is the respect for other people, and the respect for human life. Human life is cheap now in the US, it didn't used to be. Things that are done today as a matter of course just weren't done back then. I remember when I was about 11, a guy named Richard Speck killed eight nurses. This, like the Manson case, was just earth shaking news. It's all that was talked about for months and years. Today, stuff like this is nearly an everyday occurence and probably wouldn't make the front page. There was a guy in Alaska recently who beat two people in their 70s or 80s to death, and then raped their 2.5 year old great granddaughter. That kind of stuff just didn't happen. People had more respect for themselves, and others.
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donk
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Post by donk on May 29, 2013 15:50:27 GMT -5
boy, what a bunch of fools....if you didn't live thru the 20's and 30's I would at least think you have read about it or watched some of the many movies of that ere....respect for human lihe? wow, tell that to the thousands of blacks who were lynched or beaten because of no reason at all...almost like the hate for Obama....what do you think the mafia was doing??? You think the Dillenger gang or Machine Gun Kelly gangs were not shooting up enough people....you think all those ex-CFO's standing on the corner selling apples or all the people living in Hobo camps don't measure up to the homeless of today? Did you ever see the signs .."No dogs, Jews of Catholics allowed"... how about the daily bombings berween the Catholics and Protestants in Ireland...and the gang fights in the USA?? How about the Catholics and Jews having to start their own schools because of the anti BS the Protestants were teaching in the public schools they controlled??// yes, things are really terrible, today....
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Post by allenreed on May 29, 2013 17:07:56 GMT -5
boy, what a bunch of fools....if you didn't live thru the 20's and 30's I would at least think you have read about it or watched some of the many movies of that ere....respect for human lihe? wow, tell that to the thousands of blacks who were lynched or beaten because of no reason at all...almost like the hate for Obama. Allen- How exactly is lynching someone like the "hate" for Obama? What hate are you talking about? You mean because the media has stopped kissing his a** because he's trying to take away freedom of the press and using the IRS to target his enemies. You mean because he stood up in front of America and flat out lied about Benghazi? How many people were lynched compared to how many people are killed now on a daily basis, often for no reason at all. ...what do you think the mafia was doing??? You think the Dillenger gang or Machine Gun Kelly gangs were not shooting up enough people. Allen- Not to stick up for the mafia, but they didn't often kill innocent bystanders, and didn't do drive bys on random people. Also weren't big on killing women and raping children. ...you think all those ex-CFO's standing on the corner selling apples or all the people living in Hobo camps don't measure up to the homeless of today?? Allen- Not nearly the volume. Still people selling apples. They're just illegals who are entitled to do so without a health permit.
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Post by sharksrog on May 29, 2013 19:19:33 GMT -5
Rog -- I don't honestly know whether teaching at the elementary or high school level is harder than umpiring in the majors, but I know it takes a lot more to get selected for the latter than the former. Allen- Only because we need more teachers than baseball umpires. Rog -- It would seem that you would have us believe we have a greater need (in terms of relative performance) for umpires than teachers. I have a lot of respect for teachers, Boly being one of the best examples. But I can virtually assure you that major league umpires as a group do a better job as a group than teachers. One need only look at a Bell curve to see why. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1788&page=2#11175#ixzz2UjM0iOKh
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Post by sharksrog on May 29, 2013 19:22:29 GMT -5
Allen- Are you speaking solely of sports here? What today is better than it was in our childhood? Rog -- Computers, cars, televisions. Pretty much anything to do with technology. Now, has it been worth the trade off against the things you mention? That's a different question. The question you asked, though, was a simple one to answer. The question you asked was a black and white question. The question I asked has many shades of gray. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1788&page=2#ixzz2UjMlWfCt
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donk
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Post by donk on May 29, 2013 19:24:41 GMT -5
boy, what a bunch of fools....if you didn't live thru the 20's and 30's I would at least think you have read about it or watched some of the many movies of that ere....respect for human lihe? wow, tell that to the thousands of blacks who were lynched or beaten because of no reason at all...almost like the hate for Obama. dk..what a stupid statement, the one thing in common with the lynchings and your constant barrage against Obama is the hatrid towards Blacks...you know it, be man enough to admit it.... Allen- How exactly is lynching someone like the "hate" for Obama? What hate are you talking about? You mean because the media has stopped kissing his a** because he's trying to take away freedom of the press and using the IRS to target his enemies. You mean because he stood up in front of America and flat out lied about Benghazi? dk..what a stupid statement, the one thing in common with the lynchings and your constant barrage against Obama is the hatrid towards Blacks...you know it, be man enough to admit it....the Bush Patriot Bill took away all freedoms...and not one peep out of you....The Inspector General, a Bush appointee, said there was no Whitehouse envolvment in the IRS deal...and just what did the Irs do...they OK'ed all applicants....and the Tea Party nuts could have done their business without getting the IRS approval...you know it and they knew it and you are both grade A haters....the Benghazi crap has to be the biggest, most disgusting episode of trying to make something out of a sad event that couldn't be stopped by Washington....what the fricken difference did it make what was said..the only people it could have helped were the guys who did the act....and the stupid people who think it would have reversed history....these same people who wring their hands and say we should have more boots on the ground...these same peopole who cried out about the US role in the bombing during the overthrow of the government and who declared no boots on the ground and who cut the budget so that we could not buy the boots, let alone put some feet in those boots...the Intelligence Agency editted the statement in order that the FBI could do their job, but A-holes like you want to make something out of nothing... How many people were lynched compared to how many people are killed now on a daily basis, often for no reason at all. dk...do you think it takes a whole lot of killings to keep people off the streets??? ...what do you think the mafia was doing??? You think the Dillenger gang or Machine Gun Kelly gangs were not shooting up enough people. Allen- Not to stick up for the mafia, but they didn't often kill innocent bystanders, and didn't do drive bys on random people. Also weren't big on killing women and raping children. dk...wow, the golden men of the mafia....they killed whom ever didn't knuckle down to their control.... ...you think all those ex-CFO's standing on the corner selling apples or all the people living in Hobo camps don't measure up to the homeless of today?? Allen- Not nearly the volume. Still people selling apples. They're just illegals who are entitled to do so without a health permit. dk...the health permit that the Republicans fought against...if your too stupid not to wash your fruit before you eat it,lots of luck....you really don't know crap about the Great Depression....if you think the volume of homeless and unemployed was minor, you don't know anything....of course, once they got Hoover out of therer, FDR found ways of providing jobs and residences for the unemployed...CCC, WPA , etc....
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Post by Islandboagie on May 29, 2013 21:10:06 GMT -5
Rog- I have a lot of respect for teachers, Boly being one of the best examples. But I can virtually assure you that major league umpires as a group do a better job as a group than teachers. One need only look at a Bell curve to see why.
Boagie- what you're saying here is strong evidence as to which one the harder job is.
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Post by allenreed on May 29, 2013 21:40:17 GMT -5
Would that be the Wally Bell curve?
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Post by allenreed on May 29, 2013 22:17:41 GMT -5
dk..what a stupid statement, the one thing in common with the lynchings and your constant barrage against Obama is the hatrid towards Blacks...you know it, be man enough to admit it....
Allen- How exactly is lynching someone like the "hate" for Obama? What hate are you talking about? You mean because the media has stopped kissing his a** because he's trying to take away freedom of the press and using the IRS to target his enemies. You mean because he stood up in front of America and flat out lied about Benghazi?
dk..what a stupid statement, the one thing in common with the lynchings and your constant barrage against Obama is the hatrid towards Blacks...you know it, be man enough to admit it..
Allen- Yet again Don, Obama is as white as he is black. Even after five years, this argument doesn't hold water. I take it by your post that you're OK with the things that the Obama administration is doing? You're ok with them using the IRS to harass and intimidate people who disagree with their politics, and exercise what used to be their right to speak out about it. By the way, that's still going on, even though they said they stopped it. You're ok with the DOJ using their power to intimidate and silence reporters who disagree with their policies? You're ok with a President who hugs the mother of an American killed in a terrorist attack, then lies right to her face as to the reason.
The Inspector General, a Bush appointee, said there was no Whitehouse envolvment in the IRS deal..
Allen- The IG was still a Dem, just Bush reaching accross the aisle. So far we've found out that people pretty close to the President knew, people that worked in the White House. White House counsel Karen Ruemmler knew, and Chief of Staff Dennis McDonough knew,. Frankly, if Obama didn't know, he should have known. I knew about this time last year. It was in the news. You remain almost unbelievably uninformed. But hey, that's what Barack is trying to do, and that's how he got re-elected. Keep the people ignorant and give them free stuff.
.and just what did the Irs do...they OK'ed all applicants.
Allen- Uh, no. There are groups who are still waiting, and still being harassed and audited. Left leaning groups were fast tracked. ...and the Tea Party nuts could have done their business without getting the IRS approval...you know it and they knew it and you are both grade A haters..
Allen- And you are an ignorant, whiny child. Are you holding your hands over your ears and stomping your feet?
..the Benghazi crap has to be the biggest, most disgusting episode of trying to make something out of a sad event that couldn't be stopped by Washington.
Allen- Why couldn't it be stopped? They could have gave them the necessary security, they could have pulled them out of there before the attack happened, they could have sent help.
...what the fricken difference did it make what was said.
Allen- Well Hillary, if you don't mind your government lying to your face, then I guess it makes none at all. Can't help but think you'd feel differently were it your family member who got killed. If it truly couldn't have been stopped, why did the administration lie about it? Why not just tell the truth? And why the secrecy about the rest of it. Obama won't say what he was doing that night. Why not? If he was doing his job, it shouldn't be a problem, right?
the Intelligence Agency editted the statement in order that the FBI could do their job, but A-holes like you want to make something out of nothing...
Allen-Wrong again. The video story went against the Libyan President's accurate and truthful description of it as a terrorist attack. The contradiction actually delayed the FBI being allowed in. I'm not sure I would call four dead Americans nothing. Especially when they were abandoned by the very government they were there serving. We both know the lack of security was done to advance Obama's "Al Qaeda is on the run" narrative during the election. Now he's declared the war on terror over. What's it called when only one side declares a war is over? Oh yes. Surrender.
dk...wow, the golden men of the mafia....they killed whom ever didn't knuckle down to their control....
Allen- Who's doing that with IRS audits and phone audits. Oh yes, the Obama administration.
...
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Post by allenreed on May 29, 2013 22:24:55 GMT -5
Don, the depression was indeed an awful thing, but it was a temporary condition. The way things are now is the new (well, maybe not so new) normal. With the advent of what has eloquently been called "the wreckage of liberalism" , the sorry state we find ourselves in now is here forever, and in fact will only get worse.
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Post by sharksrog on May 30, 2013 0:47:58 GMT -5
Allen -- Would that be the Wally Bell curve? Rog -- No. I don't think the curve would be as big as Wally's.
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Post by sharksrog on May 30, 2013 0:51:52 GMT -5
Allen -- Ialso doubt that it's as hard as you make it out to be, especially baseball. Rog -- I have stated that I believe baseball is by far the easiest of the sports I have officiated (except softball, where the biggest challenge is staying awake). What I have done is explain some of the difficulties that MIGHT have been faced in making a particular call. I don't think baseball is nearly as hard as the other sports, but some of the plays are so darn close it is almost impossible to get them all right with the naked eye. And pitches move more than the pitches I myself have umpired. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1788&page=2#ixzz2UkhOeqTa
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Post by sharksrog on May 30, 2013 0:56:17 GMT -5
Boagie -- at that point a GOOD umpire would have have thought to himself.."hmm, maybe I did miss the angle to see the play" and at least should have talked to the umpire who was covering 2nd base at the time to see if he saw the play at a better angle. Rog -- Except for you saying a GOOD umpire would have done so, I agree with you that he should. But while the umpiring code is evolving to ask for more help, the general rule the umpires follow is that they ask for help only in specific instances. That play is one of them. I myself wouldn't have had a problem with asking another umpire for help. In fact, if I had much doubt about the call (which I would have if my angle didn't allow me to see it properly), I would indeed have asked for help, since the goal is to get the call right. But I am an exception in that regard. Just as players usually follow The Book, umpires follow The Protocol. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1788&page=2#ixzz2UkiQHX5p
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Post by allenreed on May 30, 2013 1:33:43 GMT -5
Interesting. When I saw Flannery and Scutaro (neither of whom complain much) pitch such a fit, that would have given me a pretty good indication that I missed the call. At that point, I may have asked for help. The main purpose is to make the correct call, right?
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Post by sharksrog on May 30, 2013 9:33:54 GMT -5
Allen -- Interesting. When I saw Flannery and Scutaro (neither of whom complain much) pitch such a fit, that would have given me a pretty good indication that I missed the call. At that point, I may have asked for help. The main purpose is to make the correct call, right? Rog -- I definitely would have asked for help, but as I mentioned, that goes against shall we call it the Umpire Book? I don't agree with "The Book" here, just as I often don't agree with the Baseball Book, but just as players follow their book, umpires are taught to follow theirs. I agree with you on this one. One thing about the Umpire Book though. It is better understood by the umpires than the Baseball Book seems to be understood by the players. In this case, of course, that is a bad thing. The only good thing I can say is that the Umpire Book is loosening up a bit over time. Perhaps instant replay will help loosen it up more. One thing I will say that probably goes against your thinking is that Marquez was probably the most disappointed of anyone when he saw the replay. As I have mentioned, these guys almost always DO care -- a lot. Remember, I've not only reffed myself, I've been in the locker room right after the game with officials of a fairly high level. I have mentioned here how a referee sat next to me on a bench in the locker room and said to me that he had to get his game together. I saw him on TV a couple of weeks later, and he did indeed look like a different guy. That guy is reffing in the NBA now. That was his goal, and it is quite possible that if he hadn't had the self-awareness and self-discipline to snap out of it, his NBA window of opportunity would have shut. He was old enough that it was barely open anyway. I was with Vern Harris, who has reffed the NCAA Championship game multiple times and was featured in, of all publications, The Wall Street Journal. Front page IIRC, or at least the front page of the section in which he was featured. One excellent characteristic that Vern has is that he is able to blend in with the other officials or to lead them if he is assigned what is called Referee 1 in the game. He's that so-called perfect referee who isn't noticed, yet he can also take charge when that is his role. He was unobtrusive enough that it took me a few games to realize how good he was. When he was chosen for the NCAA championship game later that season, I was really glad I had remarked to Richie Ballesteros, "Vern's really good, isn't he?" Richie was my favorite referee, 29 years in the Pac-10(12) and now its referee observer. The point I am trying to make here is that sports officials certainly aren't perfect. In fact, they're human. But I think you see only what you want to see. They're among the best in their profession, and they care a whole lot more than you think they do. There are also difficulties in officiating that you aren't aware of (except as I have pointed them out to you). Sometimes there are reasons umpires miss calls; sometimes they simply blow them. It happens to the best of them. One thing I would like you to admit is that angle is more important to making a call than distance. I admit umpires sometimes just flat-out blow calls. I've certainly blown plenty of them myself. I don't see why you often seem unable to understand the points I make. If Boly, for instance, were to go to the trouble of pointing out specifics in player mechanics or coaching, as he sometimes does, I'm all, shall we say "eyes." The more I can learn, the better I can understand. I love baseball, and I'm pretty sure I read more about it than anyone here. I've even come up with an original idea or two of my own, although you can be pretty darn sure that if I've thought of it, someone somewhere else has done so as well. Hey, I'm pretty sharp with my comments at time (although rarely directly insulting), but there are times when I have a hard time understanding why people just don't get what are pretty well demonstrated and accepted principles. I continue to be criticized for my understanding of and support for analytics, even as more and more "stats nerds" are hired to work for big league teams. And when I'm told that I just don't understand anything about baseball except for stats -- even though I have probably been at more Giants (and their minor league teams) games than anyone here -- it gets a bit frustrating. As it does when I give facts to back up opinions and am argued with by some who back up their opinions with other opinions. I don't take the position that something is right because I say it is. Instead, I take the position of backing up my opinions with as much fact and logic as I can. And then someone here says I am a mother bear protecting her cub when clearly I am protecting my Giant. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1788&page=2#11249#ixzz2UmfsO1HB
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Post by allenreed on May 30, 2013 16:22:21 GMT -5
One thing I will say that probably goes against your thinking is that Marquez was probably the most disappointed of anyone when he saw the replay. As I have mentioned, these guys almost always DO care -- a lot.
Allen- Considering that the Giants went on to win the game, you may be right. Had the Giants lost, I don't think you would be.
That guy is reffing in the NBA now. That was his goal, and it is quite possible that if he hadn't had the self-awareness and self-discipline to snap out of it, his NBA window of opportunity would have shut. He was old enough that it was barely open anyway.
Allen- And we both know what David Stern has said about NBA officiating.
One thing I would like you to admit is that angle is more important to making a call than distance. I admit umpires sometimes just flat-out blow calls. I've certainly blown plenty of them myself. I don't see why you often seem unable to understand the points I make.
Allen- Thing is, on both blown calls, Marquez didn't have angle or proximity. His strike zone stunk throughout the game as well. He was all over the place. I've seen Marquez ump many times. Fact is, he simply isn't very good. Look, I understand that umps are human, and some calls are going to be missed, The two that Marquez missed were painfully obvious. They shouldn't have been missed. The umps should also be able to tell which player has the ball, know the rules, and be able to make the correct call with help of replay. So far this season, ML umps have failed on all these counts. That's not like missing a bang-bang play at first. That just flat shouldn't happen. While I have my soapbox out, another thing riled me about the Marquez game. At a time when it was obvious to everyone (including Marquez) that he had blown both calls, he tosses Bochy. Why? He's basically punishing Bochy for his own incompetence. You blew the calls, until Bochy gets physical, stand there and take it like a man.
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Post by Islandboagie on May 30, 2013 16:27:06 GMT -5
Boagie- Rog, I couldn't give a shit about some unwritten umpires code, the ones who hide behind it are the ones who should be gone. MLB should be doing it's best to tighten up officiating and make the game as enjoyable for the fans as possible. If the Rockies had won that game all the fans go home unhappy because of one umpire who wouldn't look past his ego, that shouldn't happen.
Angel Hernandez missing the review shouldn't happen, and I can guarantee you he didn't feel bad about it later. He refused an interview and gave no apology for clearly making the wrong call and effecting a game.
I've always been a guy who has thought that good teams play through those missed calls and don't get bent out of shape over a home plate umpire squeezing the strike zone. But, when the play is so crucial to a team winning or losing, and managers, coaches and players are getting upset, you need to consult with the other umpires and get the call right. There's just too much money involved nowadays to let Gary Darling or Angel Hernandez's ego decide the game.
The umpires you mentioned are probably good umpires who want to get the call right. I know what you mean when you mention those types. I watched that show on the MLB Network about the umpires at the WS in 2012. I was impressed. They seemed like they got ready for the game just like the players do. Stretching, going over notes..ect. They also seemed very dedicated with getting the call right, and being excited about getting a tough call right. I really enjoyed watching that.
However, I don't think Angel Hernandez fits that same mold as the umpires you're refering to and the ones I saw in the WS special. The great stories like the Joyce/Galarraga day after moment. Remember Steve Palermo, the umpire turned hero? I realize umpires are only human and make mistakes, but some umpires abuse the position and sully the legacy of the umpires we've grown to respect throughout the years. Angel Hernandez and others like him are bad for baseball and even more so bad for the umpiring profession. They need to go, and no "book" should stop that from happening.
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Post by sharksrog on Jun 1, 2013 8:29:11 GMT -5
One thing I will say that probably goes against your thinking is that Marquez was probably the most disappointed of anyone when he saw the replay. As I have mentioned, these guys almost always DO care -- a lot. Allen- Considering that the Giants went on to win the game, you may be right. Had the Giants lost, I don't think you would be. Rog -- Maybe there is something you don't understand. Tons of games are won or lost on luck. A missed call by an umpire. A liner right at somebody. A bloop or doink that fell in. A dribbler that was hit too poorly to be fielding in a timely manner. A grooved pitch that somehow the batter missed. A wind-blown homer. A ball kept in the park by the wind. A shift in the wind that let the ball fall in. It hurts like heck to lose any game, and especially one lost on bad breaks. But when a game is won or lost on a mistake --whether by a player or an umpire -- no one feels worse than the mistake-maker. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1788&page=2#11260#ixzz2UyF8rJs4
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Post by sharksrog on Jun 1, 2013 8:35:32 GMT -5
One thing I would like you to admit is that angle is more important to making a call than distance. I admit umpires sometimes just flat-out blow calls. I've certainly blown plenty of them myself. I don't see why you often seem unable to understand the points I make. Allen- Thing is, on both blown calls, Marquez didn't have angle or proximity. Rog -- You continue to say things that show you really don't understand officiating, Allen. I told you that if anything, Marquez was too CLOSE to the play at the plate. I have spoken many times that sometimes calls are missed because the umpire is too CLOSE to the play, and thus has a hard time seeing both the tag and the touch of the base. I'm not saying I know all there is to know about officiating. I was still learning on nearly a daily basis when I officiated, so clearly I didn't. What I am saying though is that I know a whole lot more about it than you do. Having officiated thousands of games, I almost couldn't HELP knowing more about that topic than you. So pay attention. You just might learn something. I'm not saying we can't agree, but when you say that Marquez was too far from the play at the plate, it shows me you haven't learned nearly as much on this topic as you could have. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1788&page=2#ixzz2UyGpLJTc
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Post by sharksrog on Jun 1, 2013 8:43:42 GMT -5
Boagie- Rog, I couldn't give a shit about some unwritten umpires code, the ones who hide behind it are the ones who should be gone. Rog -- I haven't seen anyone hide behind the code. But if we're going to attack the right facet regarding the code, we should attack the way things are taught, not those who follow the "rules." I continue to ask a question that no one here has answered: Even if umpires CAN'T be fired, wouldn't that make it all the more important to learn everything possible about an umpire, including his psychological and perhaps genetic makeup, so that when you hire an umpire out of scores of candidates, you choose the guy you not only like now but the odds are you will like in the future? Anyone who has managed knows virtually every hiring decision is important. But if a decision is irrevocable, doesn't it warrant even more due diligence? No one has ever been able to tell me why basketball players miss foul shots, why balls get dropped, why batters don't always hit cripple pitches even in batting practice, or why officials miss calls. I think the answer is because these activities are being performed by human beings, not machines, and these skills are something that can be mastered, but not perfected -- since they are performed by humans. It is good to know, however, that I am the only one here who makes mistakes. As many as I make, I always thought I was making enough for the bunch of us. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1788&page=2#ixzz2UyICvrpD
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Post by allenreed on Jun 1, 2013 10:46:05 GMT -5
It hurts like heck to lose any game, and especially one lost on bad breaks. But when a game is won or lost on a mistake --whether by a player or an umpire -- no one feels worse than the mistake-maker.
Allen- Thing is, this game wasn't lost on Marquez's mistakes. The Giants won despite them. And as far as wins or losses are concerned, Marquez( or any other umpire) doesn't have any skin in the game. At least they shouldn't. They get paid the same no matter who wins or loses.
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