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Post by allenreed on May 25, 2013 18:29:12 GMT -5
If baseball really evaluates the performance of the umpires, Alfonso Marquez has to be gone. In what has been a year of accelerated incompetence by the umpires, Marquez's performance today was the cherry on the sundae. Not only did he miss two crucial but easy out/safe calls, but missed a huge number of ball/strike calls. The Giants announcers tried to call it a bad day, but Marquez has never been very good. If baseball continues to keep abysmal umpires like Marquez, it soon will have all the credibility of Jay Carney or Eric Holder. Enough is enough. They have umpires who don't know the rules, can't get a call right, even with replay, don't know which player has the ball, or if a player has the ball or not, and then numerous poor umpires like Marquez. Time to step up and move these guys. There has to be umpires in the minors who are both better and will try harder.
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Post by Islandboagie on May 25, 2013 19:18:07 GMT -5
I don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet, but what if Major League Baseball requires the umpires to do post-game interviews? The players have to explain why they didn't pitch well, or why they made a crucial error...why aren't the umpires held responsible for their mistakes too? During the interview they could also play back the call in question for them, and the umpire could then explain what happened and why they blew the call. If they were to have to answer for their mistakes maybe they'd confer with the other umpires to get the call right. I'd be surprised if there wasn't another umpire on the field that didn't clearly see Scutaro not get tagged out.
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Post by allenreed on May 25, 2013 21:51:15 GMT -5
I'd bet they'd take alot more care to get the call right if they had to explain them. I'm for sending them to the minors as they do players. Umpires who are continually bad, (such as Joe West, Marquez, Angel Hernandez, CB Bucknor, Laz Diaz) Can be sent down to learn their craft. If they don't begin to show marked improvement in the minors, then dump them. Also, there should be a mandatory retirement time. Joe West has been blowing calls for 34 years. He's too old. He's 60 and trying to run around with pro athletes. Well, actually he doesn't try very hard, and really never has. This is another instance where the presence of a union has done nothing but overinflate salaries and breed incompetence.
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Post by Islandboagie on May 26, 2013 12:06:42 GMT -5
Marquez had a bad game. He missed the close play at home, and was in a bad position to make the call at 3rd. I don't recall him ever really being a problem before yesterday, my issue isn't with him. My issue is with this ego that MLB has allowed them to have. They believe that it is more important to stand their ground rather than trying to get the call right. There was an umpire at second base at the time who could have easily seen that the tag wasn't made on Scutaro, and he was never consulted with. After flannery got upset Marquez should have confered with the umpire at second to see if he got a good view of the play, but he didn't because MLB doesn't hold these guys responsible.
You apparently don't like Joe West, but I can't really remember any one play that he's blown horribly. I know you'll disagree, but overall I can't remember his calls being all that bad. My issue with West is that he seriously believes that the fans come to see him, and because of that he abuses his authority out on the field. If he doesn't change that, he needs to be fired.
Angel Hernandez is probably the worst umpire that baseball has ever seen, he needs to be fired immediately, along with Gary Darling.
Allen- This is another instance where the presence of a union has done nothing but overinflate salaries and breed incompetence.
Boagie- Bingo! Although I'd say the percentage of good umpires is much higher than the percentage of good teachers.
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Post by allenreed on May 26, 2013 13:42:26 GMT -5
I'd say teaching is a much harder job, especially the way teacher's hands are tied by the PC crowd, but that's another story.
I'm not trying to set myself up as an expert, but I watch alot of baseball, and because the umpiring has been so bad in recent years, I watch it pretty closely. Marquez is definitely among the worst. He's a particularly bad ball/strike umpire. Simply unable to maintain a consistent strike zone. We saw it again yesterday. Yesterday, he was in extremely poor position on both calls that he blew. He was lazy (or anticipated poorly) on the play at third, and was very late in getting there to make the call. On the play on Belt, he simply didn't move, and he was too far away to really see the play. Moreover, both were extremely easy calls. West has been a problem for over thirty years. He was fired once (when the umps went on strike and MLB fired several of them) but for some reason he was brought back. Joe has been there too long, and with union protection has grown extremely arrogant, fat, and complacent. He's slow anyway, perhaps because of his age and girth, and is lazy besides. He's also extremely confrontational, and like our President and AG, thinks it's within his authority to be incompetent, and that everyone else should not only put up with it, but are out of line if they even question it. This goes back a ways but I remember West doing a game with the Giants in the 70s. Gary Lavelle was pitching and for some reason Lavelle got under Joe's skin and West simply would not call a strike. Apparently, the players on the other team caught on, and stopped swinging. This went on for about 15 pitches. Eventually Lavelle (a devout Christian) blew a cork and West tossed him. I believe the Giants manager got tossed as well. If you watch West umpire, he will often purposely make bad ball/strike calls, then glare out at the pitcher hoping for a reaction. I know Ken Harrelson went off on West a few years ago as well. I know Hawk is a homer, but everything he said about West was absolutely right. I agree with you about Hernandez, but CB Bucknor and Laz Diaz are even worse. What exactly is your problem with Darling? You and Rog have both remarked that he is bad, but somehow he's escaped my attention. Another one that I missed is Bruce Dreckman. If you know Yiddish, his last name says it all.
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Post by Islandboagie on May 26, 2013 14:43:31 GMT -5
Gary Darling hates the Giants.
He was the one who called the phantom balk call on Lincecum. Molina called time, Darling threw up his hands, Lincecum stopped, then Darling called a balk on Lincecum. Molina and Bochy both argued the call. I've watched it time and again and there still was no balk before Darling called time.
Darling also had a game much like Marquez had yesterday back in 2009. He was the umpire at first during that Dodgers - Giants game where the brawl broke out. He ejected both Bochy and Wotus during the game one questionable call, and one horrible one. The 9th inning call that Wotus was ejected on was clearly Darling trying to piss off the Giants again, it wasn't even close. That's probably the most pissed off I've been at an umpire.
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Post by klaiggeb on May 26, 2013 23:32:17 GMT -5
I'd say teaching is a much harder job, especially the way teacher's hands are tied by the PC crowd, but that's another story.
---boly says--- Allen, you don't know how right you are!
But it goes beyond the PC crowd. It goes to Sacramento and Washington where people who have never taught, or have been out of teaching for a decade, make decisions on what we teachers can do, and worse, what we can teach, and how we 'should' teach it.
All of what I have to say here is based upon how I've seen education and parents change in the last 31 years.
Certainly it doesn't apply to all, but it applies to a large majority.
Don't beleive me? Find a teacher and ask.
It goes to parents who have no clue what goes on in the classroom, who not just love their children, but WORSHIP them!
Yes, WORSHIP is the right word.
They can do no wrong. They always tell the truth, and a problem at school!
What did that teacher say or do to you that caused you to do that!
In short, they are all tooooo often clueless about their children's behavior
When I look at what I was teaching 20 years ago, and expecting and having the kids learn, and what I teach now... about 1/2 of what I did 20 years ago, I'm appalled!
Why? Because of what they haven't learned in elementary school.
What they haven't learned in Middle School
What they haven't learned at home.
Everything, and I mean EVERYTHING has been dumbed down for the last 25 years.
Back in 1981, when I was first getting started as a teacher, a representative of the text book company I was purchasing text books from told me... in 19 frickin' 81, that, and I quote.
"MIddle school texts are now being taught at the high school level, elementary at the Middle school level."
1981!
And it's gone down hill ever since.
Every swinging you know what thinks they can teach...
Guess what. They can't.
Teaching is an art, it's not a God Given Talent.
It's like being a pro athelete, or a Doctor, or a Lawyer or an Indian Chief.
It's a talent; it's a gift from God, and it requires hard work.
So next time your kid gets in trouble, before blaming the teacher, TALK TO THE TEACHER.
Don't email them!
Find out the whole story. Both sides of the story, and stop looking at your child as if he/she were God's gift to the planet.
They ain't!
None of us are.
End of rant.
boly
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Post by klaiggeb on May 26, 2013 23:34:14 GMT -5
If baseball really evaluates the performance of the umpires, Alfonso Marquez has to be gone. In what has been a year of accelerated incompetence by the umpires, Marquez's performance today was the cherry on the sundae. Not only did he miss two crucial but easy out/safe calls, but missed a huge number of ball/strike calls. The Giants announcers tried to call it a bad day, but Marquez has never been very good.
---boly says---
Allen, I'm with you 100%!
Today, in the LA Times, and American League umpire apologized to the team because of a blown call.
If Marquez would have looked at the video, and if he was a man of honor, HE would have apologized for those two atrocities.
We've all seen umpiring going down hill these last 10 years, and I'm with you; time for the league to stop pampering them, and to do something about it.
boly
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Post by sharksrog on May 27, 2013 16:05:32 GMT -5
Boagie -- I don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet, but what if Major League Baseball requires the umpires to do post-game interviews? The players have to explain why they didn't pitch well, or why they made a crucial error...why aren't the umpires held responsible for their mistakes too? Rog -- We're talking about two different things here. I fully agree with you regarding umpires doing post-game interviews, although pretty much all sports avoid it for some reason. But as for umpires' being held responsible, we don't know if they are held responsible or not. And I agree that whatever is done should be kept behind closed doors, just as it should be with a manager and his players. Boagie -- During the interview they could also play back the call in question for them, and the umpire could then explain what happened and why they blew the call. Rog -- I like that idea. I would probably suggest allowing the official to see the call from all available angles before he was required to comment, but once he had as good a look at the call as he could, I suspect officials would LIKE the idea of going over the call. Boagie -- If they were to have to answer for their mistakes maybe they'd confer with the other umpires to get the call right. I'd be surprised if there wasn't another umpire on the field that didn't clearly see Scutaro not get tagged out. Rog -- I favor umpires discussing things among themselves, and indeed they do so much more frequently than they used to. As for whether other umpires could see the play better than Marques, you're probably -- but not necessarily -- right. I have often pointed out that angle is usually far more important than distance in making a call, and often times other umpires have the better angle. On the play at third, if they weren't blocked out, it may well be that the umpire in the outfield and the umpire at second base had a better angle than Marquez. On the play at the plate, though, I doubt that any of the other three umpires had a better look. From the press box, the call at the plate was an easy one. From on the field, it probably wasn't. The two key ingredients to the play were when the tag was made and when Belt tagged the plate. From the press box, that was pretty easy to see. From where the umpire was, he may have had to focus on one or the other. If these calls were as simple as we make them out to be, they would almost never be missed, would they? Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1788#ixzz2UWoeorhk
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Post by sharksrog on May 27, 2013 16:11:57 GMT -5
Allen -- I'd bet they'd take alot more care to get the call right if they had to explain them. Rog -- And you would lose your bet. You don't think these guys CARE if they get the call right or not? If you truly believe that, you are foolish. No one here seems to have a CLUE about the difficulties of umpiring or how the umpires feel when they miss a call. I've been there and done that. I have worked with officials who have reached the professional level in baseball, basketball and football. I know well the guy who does for ESPN on college football games what Mike Ferreiro does on NFL games. And I can tell you that while some of the comments about umpires made here are valid, a lot of them are simply ignorant. You don't think a sports official CARES if he gets a call right? There is almost nothing in a day that he cares MORE about. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1788#ixzz2UWtAxoGi
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Post by sharksrog on May 27, 2013 16:13:40 GMT -5
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Post by sharksrog on May 27, 2013 16:19:27 GMT -5
Boagie -- Marquez had a bad game. He missed the close play at home, Rog -- I don't think the play was all that close, but I think that while Marquez was in the position he was supposed to be, it was a tough call from his angle. Boagie -- and was in a bad position to make the call at 3rd Rog -- Marquez had to leave his position behind home plate and go to third to make the call. There is simply no way to be in position to make every single possible call at a base. If you're on the inside of the bag, you can't always see whether a player gets around the tag. If you're outside the bag and in position to see whether the tag is missed, you can't always tell whether the tag was made first or whether the runner tagged the base before he was tagged with the ball. It has been my experience in life that if we think mistake after mistake after mistake is made, we likely don't fully understand the situation. People who are at the top of their profession are rarely incompetent, and they almost care a LOT about their performance. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1788&page=1#ixzz2UWv5PyzC
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Post by sharksrog on May 27, 2013 16:20:46 GMT -5
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Post by sharksrog on May 27, 2013 16:30:32 GMT -5
Boagie -- Gary Darling hates the Giants. He was the one who called the phantom balk call on Lincecum. Molina called time, Darling threw up his hands, Lincecum stopped, then Darling called a balk on Lincecum. Molina and Bochy both argued the call. I've watched it time and again and there still was no balk before Darling called time. Rog -- I too have watched that play closely. You know how I HATED the call's being made against Tim. But I couldn't be sure that the call wasn't made correctly. I wish I could watch the play with you and explain why I feel that way. Here is one possibility. It could have been Bengie who actually caused the balk by startling Tim when Bengie came out of his crouch to ask for time. Remember, time isn't out until the umpire says it is out. Announcers talk about players' calling time out. They don't. They ASK for time out; the umpire is the one who actually calls time out. I didn't like Darling's call because I thought it may not have made common sense. But that isn't to say that it wasn't technically correct. Just because we didn't see something doesn't mean HE didn't see it. I met Darling once. I believe it was back when he was a National League umpire, not a major league umpire. I met him in an umpire's clinic in El Cerrito, and I certainly didn't get any idea he was against the Giants. I didn't think he was a little cocky, but I have certainly felt that way about players as well. Let me ask you this: If an umpire truly has a grudge against a player or especially a team, you don't think the umpire supervisor would call him on it? I've had the advantage of being with a supervisor of officials and see how he critiqued his officials. I have been in the locker room when the critiquing was going on right after a game. Which of us do you suppose knows more about this process? Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1788&page=1#ixzz2UWwh5eQL
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Post by sharksrog on May 27, 2013 16:36:47 GMT -5
Allen -- Marquez is definitely among the worst. He's a particularly bad ball/strike umpire. Simply unable to maintain a consistent strike zone. We saw it again yesterday. Yesterday, he was in extremely poor position on both calls that he blew. Rog -- Really? What position SHOULD he have been in? Allen -- He was lazy (or anticipated poorly) on the play at third, and was very late in getting there to make the call. On the play on Belt, he simply didn't move, and he was too far away to really see the play. Rog -- Your saying that Marquez was too far away to make the call on the Belt play not only shows you haven't made that call yourself, it also shows you haven't been paying attention here. As I pointed out in a previous post, if anything, Marquez -- even though he was in textbook position) was too CLOSE to make the call. Allen -- Moreover, both were extremely easy calls. Rog -- Once again, Allen, you show a high level of ignorance of umpiring. You don't seem to have much understanding of angles. If you were doing the job of the umpires, you would almost certainly miss so many more calls than they do that it wouldn't even be funny. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1788&page=1#ixzz2UWzFvcUa
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Post by sharksrog on May 27, 2013 16:44:13 GMT -5
Boly -- We've all seen umpiring going down hill these last 10 years, and I'm with you; time for the league to stop pampering them, and to do something about it. Rog -- What I think we have seen is added use of replay. Do umpires truly miss more calls now, or do we simply over-glamorize the past? Are the umpires more confrontational today, or are we forgetting how confrontational they were in the past? If we go back in time, how could umpires LEARN from their missed calls when they didn't know nearly as often if they did indeed MISS the call? You don't think sports officials learn anything from watching tape? And you don't think the more tape they are able to watch -- and the more angles on the tapes -- they more they can learn? Supposedly the playing and officiating of sports were better in our youths than they are today, according to some here. Personallly, as much as I would love for my generation to be the best, I think we are overglamorizing the past. With all the improvements in nutrition, training and learning via video, just how can the games not have improved? Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1788&page=1#ixzz2UX0l4czM
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Post by sharksrog on May 28, 2013 8:36:40 GMT -5
Boly -- Today, in the LA Times, and American League umpire apologized to the team because of a blown call. Rog -- And how often did we see THAT back in our youths, Boly? How often did we see an umpire as conflicted as the one who blew the perfect game a few years back? Did we see the umpire apologize when he called strike three on a high pitch for the final out in Don Larsen's perfect World Series game? I just can't remember the past well enough to say for sure that officiating and playing have gotten better, but I'm not sure why they would be different from almost everything else. Can you? Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1788&page=1#ixzz2UX2Xi5yP
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Post by Islandboagie on May 28, 2013 10:48:38 GMT -5
Back in 1981, when I was first getting started as a teacher, a representative of the text book company I was purchasing text books from told me... in 19 frickin' 81, that, and I quote.
"MIddle school texts are now being taught at the high school level, elementary at the Middle school level."
1981!
Boagie- 100% correct, and I can back up your claim. I went to a private school up until 7th grade, once I hit 7th grade I went to a public school. I quickly realized they were teaching things I had learned 2 years prior.
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Post by Islandboagie on May 28, 2013 10:52:25 GMT -5
Allen- I'd say teaching is a much harder job, especially the way teacher's hands are tied by the PC crowd, but that's another story.
Boagie- I'd agree that being a good teacher is a harder job, but I knew many bad teachers who gave little to no effort.
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Post by Islandboagie on May 28, 2013 11:07:07 GMT -5
Allen -- I'd say teaching is a much harder job
Rog -- But having never been a teacher or an umpire, you likely have no valid way of comparing the two.
Boagie- You were never a major league pitcher, Rog, but how many times have we had to endure your comparisons of Pedro Martinez and Sandy Koufax?
Allen was giving his opinion and stated it that way, you commenting on that the way you did is pointless, and idiotic. You seem to think everyone is taking jabs at you when they insult officiating, they aren't.
Allen's opinion of teachers having a harder job than umpires would likely be a popular view amongst even major league umpires. I'd agree with Allen that teachers who want to teach kids have a hard job, because kids more often than not are uninterested with learning. Logic would say that getting through to those kids and keeping them interested so they can learn and be successful in life is much harder than umpiring a GAME.
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Post by Islandboagie on May 28, 2013 11:23:18 GMT -5
How often did we see an umpire as conflicted as the one who blew the perfect game a few years back?
Boagie- Jim Joyce is a class act, if all umpires were like Jim Joyce we wouldn't be having this conversation. Joyce is widely considered one of if not the best umpire in the game, and we saw why. He defused a situation and in the end it became a positive for his profession. If the other umpires around baseball don't recognize that and follow his lead, they need to go.
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Post by allenreed on May 28, 2013 11:49:27 GMT -5
Allen -- I'd bet they'd take alot more care to get the call right if they had to explain them. Rog -- And you would lose your bet. You don't think these guys CARE if they get the call right or not? If you truly believe that, you are foolish. Allen- I think they would like to get the call right, are they going to do absolutely everything they can to do so? If you believe that you're just not watching. Marquez, for instance, was not close to being in optimum position on either of his blown calls. For the one on Belt, all he had to do was move about three feet. No one here seems to have a CLUE about the difficulties of umpiring or how the umpires feel when they miss a call. Allen- Bet they'd feel worse if their jobs were at stake, or even if they spent some time in Triple A if they continually miss calls. They might even put in a little more effort. I've been there and done that. I have worked with officials who have reached the professional level in baseball, basketball and football. I know well the guy who does for ESPN on college football games what Mike Ferreiro does on NFL games. Allen- Do you mean Mike Perreira? The guy the NFL hired to be an apologist for the incompetent officiating? The Raiders have a whole room full of apologies from this guy for blown calls over the years. Doesn't do them alot of good now, does it? And I can tell you that while some of the comments about umpires made here are valid, a lot of them are simply ignorant. You don't think a sports official CARES if he gets a call right? There is almost nothing in a day that he cares MORE about. Allen- Doubtful. I'm pretty sure he cares more about the well being of himself and his family. Again, I'm sure given their druthers, they would like to get the call right, but you're seriously going to sit there and tell me that you can watch Joe West and say there's nothing he cares more about than getting the calls right? What he cares most about is feeding his ego, and antagonizing people.
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Post by allenreed on May 28, 2013 11:57:30 GMT -5
Allen -- Also, there should be a mandatory retirement time. Rog -- Now that's just stupid. You want the best officials possible, right? What if one of them reaches your mandatory retirement age? You want him to retire so a lesser official can replace him? I thought you wanted to IMPROVE officiating, not degrade it. Allen- Get serious Rog. I'm not talking about retiring at 40. You see these fossils the NFL has trying to keep up with guys who can run a 9.0 100? It's ridiculous. Joe West is 61 years old. He's a grouchy, fat old man. He can't keep up with the game, nor does he have any particular desire to. You're going to tell me there isn't some up and comer in the minors who isn't better than Joe West? Who isn't younger, more physically fit, and hungrier? Puh-leez, there are dozens.
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Post by allenreed on May 28, 2013 12:10:36 GMT -5
Allen -- Marquez is definitely among the worst. He's a particularly bad ball/strike umpire. Simply unable to maintain a consistent strike zone. We saw it again yesterday. Yesterday, he was in extremely poor position on both calls that he blew. Rog -- Really? What position SHOULD he have been in? Allen -- He was lazy (or anticipated poorly) on the play at third, and was very late in getting there to make the call. On the play on Belt, he simply didn't move, and he was too far away to really see the play. Rog -- Your saying that Marquez was too far away to make the call on the Belt play not only shows you haven't made that call yourself, it also shows you haven't been paying attention here. Allen- Rog, spare me the pose that you're part of the umpiring fraternity and no one knows anything about it but you. It's pure crap. Marquez was too far away to see the call on Belt. He could have been, and should have been, much closer to the play. He was too lazy to get in optimum position. On the play at third, he again should have been much closer. He either was slow getting there or anticipated poorly. Even at that he could have admitted that he didn't see the play and asked for help. Thye apologist schtick is getting old. Alot of these guys are simply not very good. It's Ok too admit that. As I pointed out in a previous post, if anything, Marquez -- even though he was in textbook position) was too CLOSE to make the call. Allen- Nope. If he had moved closer to the play he could have (should have) see that Belt reached the plate prior to the tag. Allen -- Moreover, both were extremely easy calls. Rog -- Once again, Allen, you show a high level of ignorance of umpiring. You don't seem to have much understanding of angles. Allen- You don't seem to have much of an understanding of vision. Unless Marquez has some kind of visual problem, he (like most people) can see things better if he's closer to them. If you were doing the job of the umpires, you would almost certainly miss so many more calls than they do that it wouldn't even be funny. Allen- Probably so. I haven't had much training in umpiring, and like West, I'm a grumpy, fat old man. Again Rog, you don't have to be a chicken to know about eggs. You don't have to be an umpire to know a lousy job when you see it.
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donk
New Member
Posts: 23
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Post by donk on May 28, 2013 12:29:44 GMT -5
Boly -- We've all seen umpiring going down hill these last 10 years, and I'm with you; time for the league to stop pampering them, and to do something about it. Rog -- What I think we have seen is added use of replay. Do umpires truly miss more calls now, or do we simply over-glamorize the past? Are the umpires more confrontational today, or are we forgetting how confrontational they were in the past? If we go back in time, how could umpires LEARN from their missed calls when they didn't know nearly as often if they did indeed MISS the call? You don't think sports officials learn anything from watching tape? And you don't think the more tape they are able to watch -- and the more angles on the tapes -- they more they can learn? Supposedly the playing and officiating of sports were better in our youths than they are today, according to some here. Personallly, as much as I would love for my generation to be the best, I think we are overglamorizing the past. With all the improvements in nutrition, training and learning via video, just how can the games not have improved? dk...since the game is now being over run with Caribbean players, mostly from poor families lacking in nutrition, training and TV, how can you make that statement...there are more obese players in the majors than at any time in my early years....and there are more players on the DL or the endless merry-go=round between the majors and the minors...it is a joke that this billion dollar industry can't determine what is wrong on how players are being trained that makes them require rest days and trips to the DL because they can't keep their body functioning enough to play a kids game.....
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Post by sharksrog on May 28, 2013 14:26:41 GMT -5
Boagie -- I went to a private school up until 7th grade, once I hit 7th grade I went to a public school. I quickly realized they were teaching things I had learned 2 years prior. Rog -- I can tell you two personal experiences that give the opposite impression. Due to moving and changing levels, I attended 8 schools by the 7th grade. Never noticed much difference until we moved to California during the 7th grade. What I found was that the school I attended when we moved to California was WAY ahead of the ones I had attended in Indiana and Illinois. The difference was so overwhelming that my sister never quite caught up, and went from a near straight A student to more of a C student. She had always been a top student, and suddenly she was average. My ex-wise, who was an excellent high school teacher, pulled our kids out of private school when she found out they were way behind what the public school kids were learning. In a touch of irony, our daughter now teaches at the public elementary school she attended. Perhaps keeping with the thoughts of Boly, Allen and Boagie here, my daughter did say that she considered the school to be upper middle class when she attended and now considered it to be middle class. I'm not disagreeing with the three of you. I would almost never disagree with Boly when it comes to schools. I am merely pointing out a couple of personal stories that might suggest a different point of view. My examples are older, so perhaps they are no longer relevant. My girlfriend believes that schools are too geared to the mainstream, that some kids need some type of mentor -- or at least special attention -- in order to succeed. I think there are at least two sides to that story, as well. And I can understand how difficult it might be for an already overworked teacher with a big classroom size to take extra time with "slow" students without holding back the others. In another personal story, I can also say that when my son -- his class salutatarian in high school -- went to Berkeley, he bit off more than he could chew and could easily have been chewed up himself. Fortunately, he got a good counselor who encouraged him to cut back on his classes and just make it through the first semester. My son followed his advice and went on to get an engineering degree at Cal and an MBA at USC. In that case, the little bit of extra attention and advice DID work out quite well. Under less favorable circumstances it is conceivable that my son would have been a drop out or at least struggled mightily to get his degree. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1788&page=1#11144#ixzz2UcFOQ3wm
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Post by sharksrog on May 28, 2013 14:43:16 GMT -5
Allen -- I'd say teaching is a much harder job Rog -- But having never been a teacher or an umpire, you likely have no valid way of comparing the two. Boagie- You were never a major league pitcher, Rog, but how many times have we had to endure your comparisons of Pedro Martinez and Sandy Koufax? Rog -- There is a difference. I can and have pointed to how each pitcher compared to league average and how he pitched at home and on the road. In the case of Sandy, I have shown how the other pitchers on the Dodgers and Angels benefited from pitching in Dodger Stadium. Allen voices an opinion on which he knows few details, and likely doesn't know enough to give an informed opinion. Boagie -- Allen was giving his opinion and stated it that way, you commenting on that the way you did is pointless, and idiotic. You seem to think everyone is taking jabs at you when they insult officiating, they aren't. Rog -- Perhaps I overreacted to Allen, but I don't take kindly to people's expressing opinions about which they know few facts. As for thinking that everyone is taking jabs at me personally when they criticize officiating, I certainly don't. I myself have criticized officiating and have critiqued officials. My point is that I have a little knowledge on both subjects. I have officiated and have been involved when officials were critiqued. I have an ex-wife who was known for being able to handle difficult high school students, and a daughter who teaches autistic pre-kindergarteners. I know, for instance, that while both my ex-wife and my daughter are very good at what they teach, neither would be likely to do a good job at what the other does. I -- and they -- realize their strong points and their limitations. I also realize the limitations of sports officials. They're plenty human too. Perhaps the most important thing accomplished officials can do is put their ego in their hind pocket. Not sure guys like Joe West, who has properly been criticized here, understand that. But I also realize how much time and money sports officials as a group put into becoming top-notch at their trade. There are exceptions, but for the most part, they CARE -- especially at the higher levels. The two questions I would ask are: . Do you think officiating is truly as easy as you think it is? . Do you truly think that officials don't care -- deeply? Boly could teach me things about teaching and about player mechanics. He knows more than I do. Don could teach me about baseball history. He knows more than I do. I try to learn from these guys. Well, guess who knows the most about sports officiating here? For that matter, guess who knows the most about analytics here? Guess who has personally attended the most games played by the Giants and their minor league teams? (Not sure about that one, but I have a good guess.) Guess who learned the most about the Giants from his dad? (Not sure about that one, either, but again I have a good guess.) My point is that we can all learn from each other. And fortunately, as an overall group, we're pretty savvy about the Giants. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1788&page=1#ixzz2UcKdT96z
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Post by sharksrog on May 28, 2013 14:52:52 GMT -5
Boagie -- Allen's opinion of teachers having a harder job than umpires would likely be a popular view amongst even major league umpires. Rog -- My ex-wife and daughter are both very good teachers. But do I think they are better than major league umpires? Highly unlikely. Do they have tougher jobs than most sports officials? Probably. But keep in mind that major league officials are at the very top of their profession. Keep in mind too that they have to do a lot of traveling and keep odd hours. No one here would like officials to be better more than I. I cringe every time they make a call. But I think I have a better understanding of why they miss calls than anyone else here does. Certainly no one here has missed more calls than I. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1788&page=1#ixzz2UcOk8rN1
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Post by sharksrog on May 28, 2013 14:54:56 GMT -5
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Post by sharksrog on May 28, 2013 15:04:58 GMT -5
Allen -- You don't have to be an umpire to know a lousy job when you see it. Rog -- The first things you need to do are to be able to define and identify a lousy job. I don't think you can tell me, for instance, what is the percentage of blown calls that make for a lousy job. Nor can you tell me what percentage of calls a particular umpire -- or even umpires in general -- blow. You probably can't tell me why an umpire might miss a call because of his position yet be in the proper position. I have stated one thing here before: I think baseball is the easiest of the major sports to officiate, since there are few black and white areas. But I have missed enough calls to know that getting the call right should rarely be taken for granted. Maybe everyone here either has easier jobs or jobs in which it is harder to identify mistakes. Otherwise I think they would know that we're being overly simplistic in our expectation that officials not miss any calls. Making those calls is just too tough at actual speed down on the field. I worked for a long time as a chief financial officer. In that position, I had some tough calls to make. But, honestly, I thought the decisions I made as a CFO were often easier than the ones I made officiating. Most of the decisions I made as a CFO could be made with proper study, analysis, reflection and even discussion. Most of the decisions I made as a sports official had to be made in the blink of an eye (hopefully not mine). Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1788&page=1#ixzz2UcRdCnVs
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