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Post by sharksrog on May 17, 2013 12:42:30 GMT -5
Can anyone remember a team that can come back better than the Giants have this season?
The next thing I wonder is if this is a repeatable skill. I think the Giants are plenty good enough to win the NL West regardless, but it is conceivable that their doing so could hinge on whether they can keep coming from behind.
Of course, there is one way they can avoid that need. Don't get behind so often in the first place.
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Post by allenreed on May 17, 2013 13:08:01 GMT -5
Their starting pitching (other than Bummy and Zito at home) has been, for the most part, horrific. hat will cause you to fall behind.
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Post by Islandboagie on May 17, 2013 13:29:37 GMT -5
Allen- Their starting pitching (other than Bummy and Zito at home) has been, for the most part, horrific. hat will cause you to fall behind.
Boagie- Are you suggesting that Cain, Lincecum, and Vogelsong pitch without wearing a hat? At this point I'm willing to give anything a shot.
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Post by Islandboagie on May 17, 2013 13:56:30 GMT -5
Rog- The next thing I wonder is if this is a repeatable skill. I think the Giants are plenty good enough to win the NL West regardless, but it is conceivable that their doing so could hinge on whether they can keep coming from behind.
Boagie- There are three major factors into making a big comeback after being down early. #1 the starting pitcher has to get roughed up. #2 the offense needs to score runs. #3 the bullpen needs to hold serve. Of these three things, I would think the LEAST likely to continue is our starting pitchers getting roughed up. Therefor I think what we've seen up to this point in the season bodes well for the rest of the season.
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Post by sharksrog on May 18, 2013 9:01:04 GMT -5
Well, the Giants sure found a way to turn things around last night.
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Post by allenreed on May 18, 2013 11:17:33 GMT -5
Just a stupid unnecessary loss last night. You simply can't make four errors at Coors and expect to win. I think you know my opinion on Pablo's error leading off the bottom of the third. If he's in any semblance of shape, that's a routine play. I'm not sure it's possible, but he seems to be gettting even bigger. The throw to third by Pagan was about 100 yards out there beyond stupid. The worst mistake of the night though, was made by Bochy. Leaving Bummy in to pitch to Pacheco was just incredibly stupid. What exactly, was he trying to do there? Madison was clearly out of gas. I would have bet a good deal of money that Pacheco would get a hit, maybe not a slam, but a hit.
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klaiggeb
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Post by klaiggeb on May 18, 2013 15:54:40 GMT -5
Just a stupid unnecessary loss last night. You simply can't make four errors at Coors and expect to win. I think you know my opinion on Pablo's error leading off the bottom of the third. If he's in any semblance of shape, that's a routine play. I'm not sure it's possible, but he seems to be gettting even bigger. The throw to third by Pagan was about 100 yards out there beyond stupid. The worst mistake of the night though, was made by Bochy. Leaving Bummy in to pitch to Pacheco was just incredibly stupid. What exactly, was he trying to do there? Madison was clearly out of gas. I would have bet a good deal of money that Pacheco would get a hit, maybe not a slam, but a hit.
---boly says---
Other than the last part, Allen, I totally agree.
But I understand what Bochy was trying to do; Madison has earned the right to a longer leash.
I thought THE most unforgiveable errors were 2, not one.
1-Bumgarner's INNNNNNNNNABILITY to get the DP throw even close to the bag 2-Pagan's air mail shot to the 3B stands.
I've been on Bochy a LOT over the years, but not last night. I would have done the same (and likely dumb) thing.
boly
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Post by allenreed on May 18, 2013 20:17:20 GMT -5
Well, I'll agree to it being dumb. If it was a maybe, I could see letting him go. But Madison was so clearly out of gas that his only chance of getting Pacheco out was if he hit a line drive right at someone. We're in this for the team to get a win, not Bummy. Bochy's leash has been too long this year. Twice, i believe, he's let Zito give up nine in an inning and Cain and Vogey have been allowed to have big ones too. As for the rest, walks and errors will just kill you at Coors, as Lincecum is proving tonight as I type this. Leadoff walk in the third, and a throwing error by Lincecum, and Colorado has three. So far. It isn't like just the walk scores. It seems to build on itself like a snowball rolling downhill. It's best not to try to make miracle plays, and just make the smart ones. Tim should have learned that tonight, and Angel should have learned it last night.
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Post by sharksrog on May 19, 2013 11:08:46 GMT -5
Boly -- I understand what Bochy was trying to do; Madison has earned the right to a longer leash. Rog -- This was also discussed on the Giants' pre-game show on KNBR. It was pointed out that Bruce Bochy could be criticized for leaving Mad Bum in, but that Bochy may have been looking at the longer term. I think Monday morning quarterbacking is too easy -- and yet elusive -- a game. Usually we don't even know what the manager was thinking -- let alone whether that thought was right or wrong (or usually, simply a non-perfect opinion competing with other non-perfect opinions). Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1714&page=1#10846#ixzz2TksjTYOn
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Post by sharksrog on May 19, 2013 11:19:01 GMT -5
Allen -- But Madison was so clearly out of gas that his only chance of getting Pacheco out was if he hit a line drive right at someone. Rog -- I see your point and would probably have pulled Mad Bum just as you would. But saying the only chance of getting Pacheco out was if he hit a line drive at someone almost certainly can't be accurate. Even in batting practice where hitters know what pitches are coming and the pitches are literally coming at batting practive speed, hitters don't always hit the ball soundly. You have said that I think something is good if I agree with it. Here the opposite is true. I agree with you that I would have taken out Mad Bum in that situation. But I would have respected your argument a great deal more if you had made the point Boly made but said that given how close the race could turn out to be, you would have removed Mad Bum, giving the Giants the best chance to win. I guess what I'm trying to say is, when second-guessing a manager, try to see what he may have been trying to accomplish and then state why you would have chosen your approach over that. Instead, you took the (IMO) narrow-minded approach of simply saying "Leaving Bummy in to pitch to Pacheco was just incredibly stupid." I agree with your conclusion, but I think you grossly overstated it (Bruce Bochy isn't a stupid guy, so his decision likely was INCREDIBLY stupid.) and gave too little consideration to what Bruce may have been thinking or perhaps information he had that we didn't. Again, I agree with you. But did you bother to take the time to think WHY Bochy may have done what he did? The severity of your comment didn't make it appear you did. So in response to my thinking an analysis is good because it agrees with my opinion, I prefer a good argument that DISagrees with my opinion to a seemingly half-baked argument that AGREES with it. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1714&page=1#ixzz2TkvYFEB2Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1714&page=1#ixzz2TktvMngu
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Post by sharksrog on May 19, 2013 11:22:43 GMT -5
Bruce Bochy is considered by some to be the best manager in the game today. He is being mentioned in a Hall of Fame context, and indeed if the Giants win another World Series or two, the odds might even begin to favor him in that regard.
That certainly doesn't put him above reproach or questioning -- but it would seem to warrant a close look before doing so.
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Post by allenreed on May 19, 2013 12:12:44 GMT -5
I have no problem with Bochy. Just looking at the results would preclude one from saying he's done anything but an excellent job. But he made a mistake the other night in leaving Bummy in to pitch to Pacheco. I was literally screaming at the TV when he didn't take him out. And sure enough, first pitch...Ka-boom! You say think about what Bochy was trying to accomplish. Ok, what was he trying to accomplish? Leave Madison in until he hurt his arm? Don't you think almost any of the bullpen guys would have had a better chance of retiring Pacheco than Bummy?
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donk
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Post by donk on May 19, 2013 13:42:52 GMT -5
I have no problem with Bochy. Just looking at the results would preclude one from saying he's done anything but an excellent job. But he made a mistake the other night in leaving Bummy in to pitch to Pacheco. I was literally screaming at the TV when he didn't take him out. And sure enough, first pitch...Ka-boom! You say think about what Bochy was trying to accomplish. Ok, what was he trying to accomplish? Leave Madison in until he hurt his arm? Don't you think almost any of the bullpen guys would have had a better chance of retiring Pacheco than Bummy dk..I couldn't hear your screaming as I was screaming much too loud.....MadBum is doing a great job, but there are very few times that he pitches out of trouble when he is deep into his pitch count...it might come about when he matures, but I would be more inclined to pull him too early than too late....he is much too young to over work him in just another game....
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Post by sharksrog on May 20, 2013 0:14:41 GMT -5
Don -- MadBum is doing a great job, but there are very few times that he pitches out of trouble when he is deep into his pitch count... Rog -- Mad Bum actually does better at high pitch counts than most pitchers. He has his most trouble early in games. His OPS allowed on pitches 1-25 is .778. His best is pitches 51-75, where he stands at .576. On pitches 76-100, he is at .662, and over 100 pitches, at .667. His overall career OPS allowed is .676, so in high pitch counts, he's right at his overall average. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1714&page=1#10870#ixzz2To4zpZ9Z
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donk
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Post by donk on May 20, 2013 13:52:59 GMT -5
not to start another pissing contest, but what I wrote was that he had trouble pitching out of trouble when his pitch count was high, so your stats do not cover that....another factor could be what inning he reaches 100 pitches....that makes a difference, too...does he get relieved after 100 pitches with runners on base and the pen either saves him or not....many different combinations possible....but I think I can tell , about 80% , when his body language says "take me out" ....but the manager has to operate under different rules....
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Post by sharksrog on May 20, 2013 15:23:41 GMT -5
Don -- not to start another pissing contest, but what I wrote was that he had trouble pitching out of trouble when his pitch count was high, so your stats do not cover that.... Rog -- They kind of do. If he is pitching as well when his pitch count is high as he pitches otherwise, either he isn't getting into trouble or he isn't having any more trouble getting out of it than usual. Don -- another factor could be what inning he reaches 100 pitches.... Rog -- Now that's a good point. Generally speaking, I would think that the better a pitcher has pitched in the game, the more likely he would be to get out of a jam later in the game. Regarding Mad Bum, you might want to do a study to see how he has fared in different situations at high pitch counts. His overall stats in such situations indicate he is more or less the same pitcher he is at other times of the game. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1714&page=1#10911#ixzz2TrirxAlH
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donk
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Post by donk on May 20, 2013 15:28:54 GMT -5
Baggerly said the same thing I say, you can almost tell for sure when Madison is done, but Bochy seems to wait one batter longer...
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Post by sharksrog on May 20, 2013 16:09:03 GMT -5
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