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Post by klaiggeb on Apr 21, 2013 10:57:13 GMT -5
Hopefully for more than one night, Tiny Tim did what I didnt' think he would ever do again; be the pitcher he was when he won the back-to-back Cy Youngs...
He had good command of his fastball, and his off speed stuff was flat out UNhittable.
That's the Tim we all remember.
Perhaps his comment in a SFgate article was the key when he said he wasn't going to "nit pick" at the strike zone anymore.
Posey was still setting up inside and outside, but if Tim was just going after the hitters and letting his natural stuff take over... well, let's just all hope that's what he does from now on.
Bumgarner has been outstanding.
Cain has not been very good
Zito has been, expect for that one outting pretty good
Vogelsong has been average at best
Lincecum has been erratic.
Our starters were last in ERA going into the Padre game, and clearly, that must (and likely will) change.
My fingers are crossed that Bumgarner and Timmy's back-to-back starts are what we're going to get for the rest of the way.
For one day, Timmy, you were back.
Now, let's keep it up.
boly
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Post by sharksrog on Apr 22, 2013 14:46:48 GMT -5
Tim threw about 2/3rds fastballs, which is high for him. According to MLB's Gameday, he threw only one curve ball, and that was a ball. The rest of his pitches were change ups and sliders. Less than half the pitches in the last two groups were strikes, but Tim got most of his strikeouts on those two offerings.
Tim threw just six balls in the dirt, which is an improvement -- although sometimes he throws his change up in the dirt by design.
More than any start in memory, Tim was putting the ball where he wanted it. He threw the fastball often in the early innings, to take advantage of the sun and shadows mixture. He was locating well, and that seemed to give him confidence that carried through into the later innings.
Tim's curve ball had been getting hit in recent outings, so he virtually eliminated it for this game.
Interestingly, almost all Tim's called strikes and foul balls came on fastballs, while a much higher percentage of change ups and sliders were swinging strikes.
When batters swung at Tim's fastballs, they missed it only four times. His swing-and-miss pitches have long been his secondary offerings.
Tim got a lot of called strikes with his fastball when it appeared hitters were looking for soft stuff.
Tim needs to carry this combination of control, command, stuff and confidence on for a few more games before we can say he's back. I think this was his best game since his first start after last year's All-Star break.
It seems there is more reason for optimism than after almost any start in the past year-plus.
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Post by klaiggeb on Apr 22, 2013 15:12:28 GMT -5
It seems there is more reason for optimism than after almost any start in the past year-plus.
---boly says---
Rog, I wish I could agree... but his last 2 years have established a track record that one outstanding start isn't going to erase.
At least, not in my mind.
IF he can repeat this performance, or at least come close, in 7 of his next 10... then I'll be optimistic.
boly
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Post by sharksrog on Apr 22, 2013 17:42:34 GMT -5
Rog -- It seems there is more reason for optimism than after almost any start in the past year-plus. ---boly says--- Rog, I wish I could agree... but his last 2 years have established a track record that one outstanding start isn't going to erase. At least, not in my mind. IF he can repeat this performance, or at least come close, in 7 of his next 10... then I'll be optimistic. Rog -- I think we are on the same page here, Boly. I really liked the start, but that isn't the first time that has happened over the last year-plus. Four times he held the opponents without an earned run. Tim's best run came immediately after the All-Star break, when he allowed 0,2,5,1 and 1 runs in his first five 2nd-half starts. That was promising, and indeed Tim did improve in the 2nd half. But he wasn't truly back, and we can only hope this is the beginning of something with more legs. Saturday night certainly wasn't the best outing of his career, but it was a darn good one. And the WAY he did it was impressive. Tim got ahead of the vast majority of the hitters he faced. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1682&page=1#10382#ixzz2REUpa280 |
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Post by rxmeister on Apr 22, 2013 20:41:40 GMT -5
And Buster Posey caught him for the first time all year. Coincidence? I doubt it!
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Post by sharksrog on Apr 23, 2013 9:07:51 GMT -5
I messed up my stats for Buster and Sanchez catching Tim, since I was thinking Buster caught him in the season opener.
Well, obviously, Tim didn't start the opener, and Buster didn't catch him. So the beautiful thing is that the most recent 19.2 innings Buster has caught Tim, Tim has walked only four; while the past 21.2 frames with Hector, he has walked 15.
These samples are too small to have much meaning, but clearly Tim can pitch to Buster. In fact, beginning with last season and including the postseason and this season to date, Tim has pitched BETTER to Buster than to Hector.
I have mentioned that when Buster caught Tim in the first half of last season, Tim was really bad. Tim finally had a good game -- PITCHING TO HECTOR. Then Hector began catching Tim all the time.
It may be that reality is setting back in, and Tim realizes that Buster wasn't his problem.
I'm not sure if we'll EVER know all the reasons -- or perceived reasons -- Buster didn't catch Tim over a long period of time.
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donk
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Post by donk on Apr 23, 2013 12:30:35 GMT -5
I think it was pretty obvious why some pitchers don't like to pitch to Posey, they don't like the way he calls a game.....it wasn't too long ago that they said that Posey and the pitchers have to get on the same page.....as one of the boadcasters said, Posey seems to put down a lot of signs and finally the pitcher nods yes....Posey and the pitchers have quite a few meetings on the mound, also....the results have been OK, but I still see some body language indicating the pitchers are not always happy with Buster....
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Post by Islandboagie on Apr 23, 2013 15:22:38 GMT -5
Don- I think it was pretty obvious why some pitchers don't like to pitch to Posey
Boagie- The opposing pitchers?
I'm with you Don, why would any of our pitchers want him out there? MVP, batting champ..threw out more runners trying to steal than anyone else last year. Caught the Giants staff down the stretch in 2010 while they broke a pitching record that'd stood since the '60's. 2 World Series Championships. 8-1 in the WS while catching 4 shutouts. Was credited by Matt Cain himself on calling the perfect game. Hit the grandslam in the clinching game against the Reds, and the 2-run homerun in the clinching game of the 2012 WS. The 3 starters he caught the most last year had ERAs of 2.79, 3.37 and 3.37, the two starters he caught the least had ERAs of 4.15 and 5.18. With all this evidence piling up, you really have to start to wonder why the Giants don't just release him.
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Post by allenreed on Apr 23, 2013 21:50:16 GMT -5
I think it was pretty obvious why some pitchers don't like to pitch to Posey, they don't like the way he calls a game.....it wasn't too long ago that they said that Posey and the pitchers have to get on the same page.....as one of the boadcasters said, Posey seems to put down a lot of signs and finally the pitcher nods yes....Posey and the pitchers have quite a few meetings on the mound, also....the results have been OK, but I still see some body language indicating the pitchers are not always happy with Buster
Allen- You really are determined to see what you want to see and disregard reality, aren't you Don? Why do pitchers not want to pitch to Buster? They don't want to succeed? See what the Giants record is when Buster catches.
The results have been "OK"?! Are you serious? They've won two World Series in three years, and the year they didn't win, it was mainly because Buster got hurt. The Giants staff has been little short of brilliant since Posey has been here.
On top of that, he's the league MVP and batting champ. If I were pitching for the Giants, I would insist that Buster catch for me.
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donk
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Post by donk on Apr 24, 2013 2:27:20 GMT -5
explain to me why Sanchez caught so many critical games for both Tim and Zito and explain to me why the Giants went out of their way to say that Posey and the pitchers have to start getting on the same page.....the Giants are catching Posey more now because they are trying to kill off the talk about there might be a problem when Posey catches certain pitchers....Affeldt can joke about Posey humping up to avoid getting hit by his scud, but I am sure he doesn't laugh when Buster does it with men on base....and the TV duo weren't very kind to Buster for not trying to block that ball in the dirt.....
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Post by sharksrog on Apr 24, 2013 9:09:50 GMT -5
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Post by sharksrog on Apr 24, 2013 9:12:53 GMT -5
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Post by sharksrog on Apr 24, 2013 9:20:37 GMT -5
Allen -- See what the Giants record is when Buster catches. The results have been "OK"?! Are you serious? They've won two World Series in three years, and the year they didn't win, it was mainly because Buster got hurt. The Giants staff has been little short of brilliant since Posey has been here. Rog -- The Giants' pitching was already pretty good before Buster caught them, but I believe the Giants' record the past three-plus seasons is -- as you correctly point out, Allen -- clearly better when Buster catches than when he doesn't. If we go back to the beginning of the 2012 season, Tim has clearly been better when pitching to Buster than when pitching to Buster, although he hasn't been very good pitching to either. I thought Hector was pretty successful catching Barry Zito since 2012, but Buster has actually been slightly better. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1682&page=1#ixzz2ROFlt3Iw |
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Post by allenreed on Apr 24, 2013 10:38:59 GMT -5
What this comes down to is just more of Don's liberal "resent success" mentality. Buster came to the Giants highly touted andf has been all that he was advertised to be and more. He worked hard and clawed back from a catastrophic injury that would have ended or seriously diminished alot of careers. He is the unquestioned leader of the Giants at age 26. He's an overdog that made good. Don can't stand that
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Post by Islandboagie on Apr 24, 2013 10:51:01 GMT -5
Boagie -- Was credited by Matt Cain himself on calling the perfect game.
Rog -- In his last start, Madison Bumgarner gave up a 2-1 lead by allowing a solo homer. He admitted he shook Buster off on the pitch.
I can't say Buster always call the perfect pitch, but I can say that it is unlikely that any other catcher is smarter than he.
Boagie- Catcher's calling of games is one of the hardest things to judge in baseball. The catcher can call all the right pitches but if the pitcher is tipping his pitches or just simply not effective, it can look bad for the catcher. Or a catcher could call pitches that the hitter predicts but because of the pitchers stuff the hitter could still swing through it, thus a catcher could call a poor game but still look good. I think in most cases, if the pitcher hits his spots, then the pitcher and catcher will often work well together.
I think Posey is average to above average at calling games, where Posey shines is his ability to stop the running game, and of course his offense.
The Giants catcher that really sticks out to me as far as calling games was Molina. I still think the Giants dropped the ball there by not making him a coach. I always give high praise to Posey for what he's accomplished thus far in his career (how couldn't you?) but the fact is, he's still young, both him and Sanchez would have only benefited from having Molina around for a while.
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Post by sharksrog on Apr 24, 2013 12:13:23 GMT -5
Allen -- He's an overdog that made good.
Rog -- Now THAT'S good stuff, Allen. I think it might rank up there with:
. "Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory."
. John McKay's comment when a reporter asked him what he thought of his expansion Tampa Bay Bucs' execution that McKay was completely in favor of it.
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Post by sharksrog on Apr 24, 2013 12:20:03 GMT -5
Boagie -- I think Posey is average to above average at calling games, where Posey shines is his ability to stop the running game, and of course his offense. Rog -- Buster is considered to be near the top in his leadership and pitch calling behind the plate. He also appears to be a good pitch framer, and despite always using the perfect technique, a good preventer of passed balls and wild pitches. Buster's throwing is a little tough to evaluate properly, since the Giants' pitchers aren't very good at holding runners on. This season though, his caught stealing percentage is 38% compared to a league average 29%. Over his career he is at 34% compared to a league average of 28%. Johnny Bench is often used as the standard for throwing out runners. He was at 43% compared to a league average of 35%. I think Yadier Molina is the best defensive catcher by far, and Matt Wieters is also considered top notch. I think Buster compares pretty well with just about any other catcher. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1682&page=1#ixzz2ROz64klj |
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Post by klaiggeb on Apr 25, 2013 9:43:58 GMT -5
Boagie -- I think Posey is average to above average at calling games, where Posey shines is his ability to stop the running game, and of course his offense.
--boly says---
Great assessment, Boagie, and I couldn't agree more.
IMHO, and it's just that; an opinion, I think that a catcher's ability to call a good game, is a learned behavior. Buster has not been a catcher for the majority of his athletic life. He's still on a learning curve is my opinion.
I contend he is exactly what you said he is, Boagie.
From my own personal experience, I can tell you that the pitcher's ability to be in sync with a catcher is much like relationships with people; there are those you "click" with, and those you don't.
But you can pitch and pitch well to ANY catcher because in the end, the pitcher calls his own game.
Most pitchers would prefer to pitch to those catchers with whom the "click" best.
Jack Sanford, for example, insisted on pitching to Tom Haller, evern though Ed Bailey was Tommy's defensive equal, or better.
But to question Buster's ability to me, is foolish.
As one poster said, Buster has been the catcher for 2 World Series winning staffs.
THAT doesn't happen by accident.
boly
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Post by Islandboagie on Apr 25, 2013 12:58:21 GMT -5
People act like the catcher goes out there blind, calling random pitches. The pitcher and catcher talk about how they're going to work hitters before the game. Other pitchers talk amongst eachother who to pitch in on and who to pitch away. There's an agreement before the game how they're going to work the lineup. Most of the time when a pitcher calls off a catcher it's because he has confidence in a certain pitch in a certain situation, it rarely has to do with whether that pitcher thinks that's a good call or not. How many times does a catcher call for a lolipop right down the middle? or a hanging slider? Those r the pitches that get crushed.
Don commented on Posey making alot of trips to the mound the other day, honestly I don't think catchers do that enough these days. But, Posey is fairly decent at it.
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donk
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Post by donk on Apr 25, 2013 13:23:18 GMT -5
[ Allen- You really are determined to see what you want to see and disregard reality, aren't you Don? Why do pitchers not want to pitch to Buster? They don't want to succeed? See what the Giants record is when Buster catches.
dk...I don't have the stats, but the Giants have won a BIG percent of the games last year when Zito started and Sanchez caught...
The results have been "OK"?! Are you serious? They've won two World Series in three years, and the year they didn't win, it was mainly because Buster got hurt. The Giants staff has been little short of brilliant since Posey has been here.
dk...and Sanchez caught the tail end of the order and the toughest pitchers to catch....
On top of that, he's the league MVP and batting champ. If I were pitching for the Giants, I would insist that Buster catch for me
dk...as a one time pitcher, I would prefer him playing first.....
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donk
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Post by donk on Apr 25, 2013 13:29:26 GMT -5
I messed up my stats for Buster and Sanchez catching Tim, since I was thinking Buster caught him in the season opener. Well, obviously, Tim didn't start the opener, and Buster didn't catch him. So the beautiful thing is that the most recent 19.2 innings Buster has caught Tim, Tim has walked only four; while the past 21.2 frames with Hector, he has walked 15. These samples are too small to have much meaning, but clearly Tim can pitch to Buster. In fact, beginning with last season and including the postseason and this season to date, Tim has pitched BETTER to Buster than to Hector. I have mentioned that when Buster caught Tim in the first half of last season, Tim was really bad. Tim finally had a good game -- PITCHING TO HECTOR. Then Hector began catching Tim all the time. It may be that reality is setting back in, and Tim realizes that Buster wasn't his problem. I'm not sure if we'll EVER know all the reasons -- or perceived reasons -- Buster didn't catch Tim over a long period of time. dk...it isn't that Posey can't catch anyone, but it is a fact that Tim is a hard guy to catch and they preferred Sanchez getting the bruises because his mechanics are better ....however, in his last game, Tim didn't bounce his usual amount of pitches and Posey was able to handle him..... |
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donk
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Post by donk on Apr 25, 2013 13:48:50 GMT -5
I think it was pretty obvious why some pitchers don't like to pitch to Posey, they don't like the way he calls a game.....it wasn't too long ago that they said that Posey and the pitchers have to get on the same page.....as one of the boadcasters said, Posey seems to put down a lot of signs and finally the pitcher nods yes....Posey and the pitchers have quite a few meetings on the mound, also....the results have been OK, but I still see some body language indicating the pitchers are not always happy with Buster Allen- You really are determined to see what you want to see and disregard reality, aren't you Don? Why do pitchers not want to pitch to Buster? They don't want to succeed? See what the Giants record is when Buster catches. The results have been "OK"?! Are you serious? They've won two World Series in three years, and the year they didn't win, it was mainly because Buster got hurt. The Giants staff has been little short of brilliant since Posey has been here. On top of that, he's the league MVP and batting champ. If I were pitching for the Giants, I would insist that Buster catch for me. dk...and Zito did much better when Sanchez became his catcher.....and Posey does better hitting when he plays first...why not have him play first and avoid the problem of not having on the "same page" with the pitchers?  ?? If you had ever pitched with a catcher that you had problems with you would understand the difference..... |
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donk
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Post by donk on Apr 25, 2013 13:50:13 GMT -5
Don -- the results have been OK, but I still see some body language indicating the pitchers are not always happy with Buster.... Rog -- So which is more important, Don? That the results have been OK or that you believe there has been body language that the pitchers aren't always happy with Buster? dk...just makes it easier on the pitcher.....] |
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donk
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Post by donk on Apr 25, 2013 13:53:33 GMT -5
Boagie -- Was credited by Matt Cain himself on calling the perfect game. Rog -- In his last start, Madison Bumgarner gave up a 2-1 lead by allowing a solo homer. He admitted he shook Buster off on the pitch. I can't say Buster always call the perfect pitch, but I can say that it is unlikely that any other catcher is smarter than he. dk...pitchers are always shaking Posey off....why else did the Giants management make it a point to say that Posey and the Pitcher have to be on the same page..... |
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donk
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Post by donk on Apr 25, 2013 14:03:39 GMT -5
What this comes down to is just more of Don's liberal "resent success" mentality. Buster came to the Giants highly touted andf has been all that he was advertised to be and more. He worked hard and clawed back from a catastrophic injury that would have ended or seriously diminished alot of careers. He is the unquestioned leader of the Giants at age 26. He's an overdog that made good. Don can't stand that dk..you are sick....I itemized the fact that K and K said the other night that Posey's mechanics were bad when the pitcher threw a ball in the dirt and Posey didn't go down to block it....I also reported that Affeldt said that Posey jumps up to avoid his "scud" pitch (in the dirt)...so you unwrap your sewer mouth to diss me......ok, I can understand you wing nut radicals being sore losers.....and no one has ever got around to answering why Sanchez caught some of the career critical games that Tim threw last year...and why management, in trying to deny a problem with Posey and the pitchers, slipped up by saying they have to get on the same page? ? |
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donk
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Post by donk on Apr 25, 2013 14:06:43 GMT -5
What this comes down to is just more of Don's liberal "resent success" mentality. Buster came to the Giants highly touted andf has been all that he was advertised to be and more. He worked hard and clawed back from a catastrophic injury that would have ended or seriously diminished alot of careers. He is the unquestioned leader of the Giants at age 26. He's an overdog that made good. Don can't stand that dk..you are sick....I itemized the fact that K and K said the other night that Posey's mechanics were bad when the pitcher threw a ball in the dirt and Posey didn't go down to block it....I also reported that Affeldt said that Posey jumps up to avoid his "scud" pitch (in the dirt)...so you unwrap your sewer mouth to diss me......ok, I can understand you wing nut radicals being sore losers.....and no one has ever got around to answering why Sanchez caught some of the career critical games that Tim threw last year...and why management, in trying to deny a problem with Posey and the pitchers, slipped up by saying they have to get on the same page? ? Posey is going to be moved eventually, why not now??? It would also be nice to have some one to block the plate when the winning run is coming home.... |
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Post by allenreed on Apr 25, 2013 18:59:15 GMT -5
See what the Giants record is when Buster catches.
dk...I don't have the stats, but the Giants have won a BIG percent of the games last year when Zito started and Sanchez caught...
Allen- Silly response. One, the question didn't concern either Zito or Sanchez. Two, those wins may have more to do with Zito than with any other factor.
The results have been "OK"?! Are you serious? They've won two World Series in three years, and the year they didn't win, it was mainly because Buster got hurt. The Giants staff has been little short of brilliant since Posey has been here.
dk...and Sanchez caught the tail end of the order and the toughest pitchers to catch....
On top of that, he's the league MVP and batting champ. If I were pitching for the Giants, I would insist that Buster catch for me
dk...as a one time pitcher, I would prefer him playing first
Allen- Posey and Belt, or Posey and Sanchez. An excellent defensive catcher who can throw out runners vs. one that has trouble throwing the ball. I gotta go with Posey behind the plate.
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Post by allenreed on Apr 25, 2013 19:12:32 GMT -5
dk..you are sick.
Allen- Allergies. Always happens this time of year.
...I itemized the fact that K and K said the other night that Posey's mechanics were bad when the pitcher threw a ball in the dirt and Posey didn't go down to block it..
Allen- So what? They're announcers for crying out loud. As far as I know, neither has ever caught. Are you really stupid enough to think Sanchez is a better defensive catcher than Posey?
You've been on Posey for any number of inane reasons since he came to the Giants, and he's made you look like a damn fool, though you've helped alot. Geez, if we could just have a whole team of Ellisons and Fransdens, then we could really be successful.
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donk
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Post by donk on Apr 26, 2013 0:10:50 GMT -5
See what the Giants record is when Buster catches. dk...I don't have the stats, but the Giants have won a BIG percent of the games last year when Zito started and Sanchez caught... Allen- Silly response. One, the question didn't concern either Zito or Sanchez. Two, those wins may have more to do with Zito than with any other factor. The results have been "OK"?! Are you serious? They've won two World Series in three years, and the year they didn't win, it was mainly because Buster got hurt. The Giants staff has been little short of brilliant since Posey has been here. dk...and Sanchez caught the tail end of the order and the toughest pitchers to catch.... On top of that, he's the league MVP and batting champ. If I were pitching for the Giants, I would insist that Buster catch for me dk...as a one time pitcher, I would prefer him playing first Allen- Posey and Belt, or Posey and Sanchez. An excellent defensive catcher who can throw out runners vs. one that has trouble throwing the ball. I gotta go with Posey behind the plate dk..you know, or do you, that Posey was second in the league in allowing stolen bases....and Sanchez was doing very well until he had arm and shoulder problems catching the toughest pitcher on the staff...yes, Posey throw out a lot of runners, but he also gave up a lot of bases...why do you think runners go so much on him... |
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donk
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Post by donk on Apr 26, 2013 0:20:10 GMT -5
People act like the catcher goes out there blind, calling random pitches. The pitcher and catcher talk about how they're going to work hitters before the game. Other pitchers talk amongst eachother who to pitch in on and who to pitch away. There's an agreement before the game how they're going to work the lineup. Most of the time when a pitcher calls off a catcher it's because he has confidence in a certain pitch in a certain situation, it rarely has to do with whether that pitcher thinks that's a good call or not. How many times does a catcher call for a lolipop right down the middle? or a hanging slider? Those r the pitches that get crushed. Don commented on Posey making alot of trips to the mound the other day, honestly I don't think catchers do that enough these days. But, Posey is fairly decent at it. dk I was just repeating what the Brewer announcers said...and I agree with them...they said that Posey just keeps putting down fingers until the pitcher gets his pitch...that is different than saying Posey called a great game.....the meetings in some cases...as it has been written in SF media....is because Posey gets his hair up and refuses to be shook off on a call.....the worst one I remember seeing was on the very first pitch of the game, Vogey shook him off 4 times and then called Posey out to the mound....you would think there would be a set way to pitch to a batter the first time around...but the first pitch and a tug of war.... |
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?? If you had ever pitched with a catcher that you had problems with you would understand the difference.....