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Post by sharksrog on Mar 11, 2013 20:47:27 GMT -5
Maybe it's just the angle of the camera, but it appears to me that Tim Lincecum was throwing differently in his simiulated game Saturday.
It appears to me that he has shortened his stride and that he is lifting his push off leg more than dragging it through his push off.
I couldn't copy the link but if you can get to Alex Pavlovic's blog from 10:40 Saturday morning, you should be able to find it.
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Post by klaiggeb on Mar 12, 2013 9:59:23 GMT -5
Maybe it's just the angle of the camera, but it appears to me that Tim Lincecum was throwing differently in his simiulated game Saturday.
It appears to me that he has shortened his stride and that he is lifting his push off leg more than dragging it through his push off.
---boly says---
Sure hope your observations are right, Rog, because that would do a LOT for helping Tim regain his old dominance... IF it can even be done at all.
He wouldn't be the first to re invent himself. Robin Roberts, whom I've mentioned before, did it, as well as others.
boly
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Post by sharksrog on Mar 12, 2013 11:11:06 GMT -5
I noticed in the video that Boagie linked that Chris appeared to have a shorter stride than Tim. VERY similar deliveries (I had read that one observer had a hard time seeing which one was which when the two motions were placed side by side, as was the case in this video.), but Chris seemed to lever more over his plant leg.
Chris has compared the motion he taught Tim to the pole vaulting the vaulter over the bar, with the body being the pole and the arm being the vaulter. Somehow that vision does seem more consistent with the body and arm "vaulting" over the landing leg.
We'll get a chance to see Tim on MLB TV tonight, on a tape-delayed basis. I think the telecast starts at either nine or 10.
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Post by Islandboagie on Mar 12, 2013 12:18:45 GMT -5
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donk
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Post by donk on Mar 12, 2013 12:40:28 GMT -5
Maybe it's just the angle of the camera, but it appears to me that Tim Lincecum was throwing differently in his simiulated game Saturday. It appears to me that he has shortened his stride and that he is lifting his push off leg more than dragging it through his push off. I couldn't copy the link but if you can get to Alex Pavlovic's blog from 10:40 Saturday morning, you should be able to find it. dk...hard to tell, but his delivery looks legal....and better....he is getting more leverage by keep his pivot foot against the "rubber" until he actually throws the ball....he has stopped dragging his pivot foot and thus should have more power at his release point..hard to see his release point, but I like his follow through....just concerned about the amount of energy he appears to put into the pitch...mighty tend to "over throw" and then tire too quickly.... |
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Post by Islandboagie on Mar 12, 2013 12:47:24 GMT -5
I noticed the same things as you, Rog. But, I don't know if that's him pitching out of the stretch or not. I don't really know that much about pitching mechanics, all I know is that Timmy needs velocity to be good. If he's around 93-94 I think we'll see a good year from Tim. If a new motion doesn't create the velocity he needs, we'll see another season like 2012. He tried to simplify his mechanics before, I believe it was at the end of 2010, and it didn't work for him. That being said, I think this motion still creates the torque that Timmy's dad designed for Tim, but it also seems to put alot of unnecessary herky jerky motion on that back leg. Not the leg a pitcher wants injured.
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Post by sharksrog on Mar 12, 2013 17:06:18 GMT -5
Boagie -- If he's around 93-94 I think we'll see a good year from Tim. If a new motion doesn't create the velocity he needs, we'll see another season like 2012. Rog -- A couple of things. First, even if his velocity remains right where it was, I don't think we'll see a repeat of last season. Second, his biggest need is command, not speed. He regained a mph from 2010 to 2011. If he can repeat that and gain at least a modicum of command, I think he'll be OK. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1608&page=1#9488#ixzz2NMjTnX5q |
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Post by sharksrog on Mar 12, 2013 17:07:49 GMT -5
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donk
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Post by donk on Mar 12, 2013 23:59:11 GMT -5
I couldn't tell the length of his stride, but his mechanics are still the same....he is leaving the rubber just before he goes into his throwing motion...not good in my opinion...he is in effect throwing the ball on the move...good for fielders, not too good for pitchers...
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Post by Islandboagie on Mar 13, 2013 0:57:26 GMT -5
Don- I couldn't tell the length of his stride, but his mechanics are still the same....he is leaving the rubber just before he goes into his throwing motion...not good in my opinion...he is in effect throwing the ball on the move...good for fielders, not too good for pitchers...
Boagie- What do you mean by "leaving the rubber before he goes into his throwing motion"? I'm not sure I see that in any of the deliveries on that video. Once a pitcher's front foot hits the front of the mound during his stride, the back foot is going to come off the rubber, or he has no momentum and power behind his throws. Do you think he moves his back foot while he's in his windup? that would seem nearly impossible to me. Also, I thought pitchers do stride (move) more than fielders when they throw, thats how they generate the velocity, was I wrong? Explain to me what you mean because I would like to see what you're seeing so I can understand better.
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donk
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Post by donk on Mar 13, 2013 11:54:40 GMT -5
Tim's throwing motion is a two step procedure ...he strides and then throws...his foot is off the rubber before his shoulder and arm go into their throwing motion....most pitchers throwing motion is what pulls the pivot foot off the rubber as he pivots over his front foot....some pitchers, like Koufax delivered the ball with a long stride and his rear foot still in contact with the rubber...which I would think is very hard on the arm....if you watch Tim, you will see the bottom of his shoe just before he starts his pitching motion...that is how I spotted his trouble with his mechanics as he was pointing his foot towards third instead of towards home...something I wrote after watching one pitch...it took Tim and Rags three starts before they figured what was wrong...maybe they finally got around to reading my post on this board....the fact that his foot was pointing towards third meant he wasn't pivoting his lower body the way he did when he was at his peak...
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Post by Islandboagie on Mar 13, 2013 12:54:37 GMT -5
Now I understand what you're talking about, but I don't think he's doing that in the video that Rog found. It looks to me like his back foot is leaving the rubber as he's throwing the ball, not before.
I'd like to also remind everyone who has a problem with Tim's mechanics, that those mechanics worked during two Cy Young seasons and 4 seasons of being an elite pitcher in baseball. Now that he had a down season everyone who didn't like his mechanics is patting themselves on the back. If you want to honor yourselves for being right a 1/5th of the time, by all means, have at it.
I will also remind you that it wasn't Tim's mechanics that were the problem when he was drafted, it was Tim's frame that scouts passed on, which in my opinion is likely the problem now, that little frame just doesn't work in the long run unless it's constantly in prime shape. Recently I linked an old video of time in college, AAA and making his debut with the Giants, and his body was in much better shape than it's been in during the last number of years.
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donk
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Post by donk on Mar 13, 2013 13:06:28 GMT -5
Tim's mechanics worked when he was younger and more flexible...I warned that this could be a problem as he aged...I can't blame it on any one thing as I don't know much about his work ethics and life style..
I don't know what tape you are talking abouty...if it was the one just taken as Tim pitched in the pen, I said that he had changed his mechanics to a one step delivery...however, what I saw last night was his old 2 stepper.....
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Post by sharksrog on Mar 14, 2013 11:11:59 GMT -5
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Post by sharksrog on Mar 14, 2013 11:22:20 GMT -5
Boagie -- It looks to me like his back foot is leaving the rubber as he's throwing the ball, not before. Rog -- At Fresno I have stood 10 feet to the side of Tim and looked for something his dad asked me to look at. Virtually EVERY pitcher comes off the rubber before the pitch leaves his hand. The primary difference with Tim is that he has a very strong push off and drags his toe, whereas most other pitchers lift their back foot more quickly. Don's point is that Tim's foot comes off the rubber before he starts toward home with the ball. Given that Tim generates much of his power from the torque of his upper body and that he has an extremely quick arm action, what Don says is a balk really isn't -- or it would be called. The biggst differences between Tim and the ordinary pitcher is his upper body torque and the length of his stride. His stride is a little bit like a panther striking. I couldn't tell if the things I thought I saw from Tim in his simulated game took place on Tuesday or not, since the camera angle was from behind him. I did notice that he was throwing hard (93-94 at times) in the first inning but has fallen back to 90-91 by the third. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1608&page=1#ixzz2NX0BuBy8 |
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Post by sharksrog on Mar 14, 2013 11:28:00 GMT -5
Boagie -- I'd like to also remind everyone who has a problem with Tim's mechanics, that those mechanics worked during two Cy Young seasons and 4 seasons of being an elite pitcher in baseball. Now that he had a down season everyone who didn't like his mechanics is patting themselves on the back. If you want to honor yourselves for being right a 1/5th of the time, by all means, have at it. Rog -- I will defend Don's and Boly's concept here, Boagie. I don't agree with them, but I have no better idea of what happened to Tim last season. Don felt that as Tim aged, he would lose his flexibility and thus his effectiveness. Boly felt that the complexity of his mechanics could make him lose it and lose it fast. Either or both could be right. I have seen no better explanation. When I can't come close to disproving something, I certainly give it the potential for validity. I believe that is the case here. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1608&page=1#ixzz2NX2rNGVf |
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Post by sharksrog on Mar 14, 2013 11:30:00 GMT -5
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Post by sharksrog on Mar 14, 2013 11:32:02 GMT -5
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Post by klaiggeb on Mar 23, 2013 10:32:19 GMT -5
Boagie -- I'd like to also remind everyone who has a problem with Tim's mechanics, that those mechanics worked during two Cy Young seasons and 4 seasons of being an elite pitcher in baseball. Now that he had a down season everyone who didn't like his mechanics is patting themselves on the back. If you want to honor yourselves for being right a 1/5th of the time, by all means, have at it.
--boly says--
Boagie:
Goofy mechanics usually are not a problem early in an atheltes career. The problem, as I've always said is when they get a little older.
My biggest example was and is Arnold Palmer. One of THE goofiest swings I've ever seen in a pro.
And when he was young, he was outstanding.
But as he got older, he simply couldn't repeat that same stroke often enough to continue being competitive for the leader boards.
That is what I see as Tim's situation.
With goofy mechanics, being in sync, and keeping rhythem and timing of the delivery are EVERYTHING.
That is where Tim has, and will continue to struggle, and thus continue to decline. Muscule memory. His brain remembers, but his body cannot continue to repeat what must be done to keep it all together.
boly
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Post by sharksrog on Mar 24, 2013 11:14:33 GMT -5
Boly -- With goofy mechanics, being in sync, and keeping rhythem and timing of the delivery are EVERYTHING. That is where Tim has, and will continue to struggle, and thus continue to decline. Muscule memory. His brain remembers, but his body cannot continue to repeat what must be done to keep it all together. Rog -- This is a nice, easy-to-understand explanation, although -- and I haven't liked his pitching at all this spring, other than perhaps the one outing in which he kept the ball down (yet still gave up two or three runs) -- it seems almost impossible that his decline will continue further. I think the more likely question is how far he will be able to bounce back. As of the moment I would have to say, shockingly little. But by the time the season is all over, I think we will be impressed by the recovery. Other than that one start, though, I'm not sure I've seen him higher than 91 mph. Not often enough, at least. But his primary problem seems not to be that he has lost perhaps 5 mph before I first saw him pitching at San Jose and Stockton, but his horrible command. By the way, Randy, did I see you at Tim's San Jose and Stockton starts, or did I just miss you? Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1608&page=1#9706#ixzz2OTSW7FrA |
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