Big Battle Developing

[sharksrog]

A big battle is developing for the final outfield spot as Francisco Peguero, Brett Pill and Cole Gillaspie are each having very nice springs.

Peguero leads the way with a .563 average and a 1.401 OPS. Impressively, he has struck out just once in 16 at bats (with one walk) and has 5 RBI's.

Pill has dropped to .273 but has two homers, six RBI's and a 1.015 OPS. He has fanned five times without a walk.

Gillaspie has fallen to .222, but three of his four hits have been doubles and he has driven in three runs. He has five strikeouts and three walks.

Roger Kieschnick is in danger of falling out of the competition with a .235 average, six strikeouts and a walk, and just one extra-base hit.

Peguero would appear to have taken a solid lead in the competition, not only hitting extremely well but playing a spectacular outfield. His combination of glove and arm may be the best among a strong defensive Giants outfield.

If the Giants go for power, Pill would be the guy. He has hit 60 homers over his last three full minor league seasons and has popped 6 in 155 Giants at bats. Pill doesn't strike out much for a power hitter -- a category he just reaches -- but he hasn't hit especially well when he puts the ball in play.

Gillspie offers a combination of slightly less power than Pill, but enough speed to have stolen 112 bases in 148 attempts in the minors. In contrast to Pill's outfield skills, Gillespie is considered a good fielder.

Peguero is a wonderful defensive outfielder who can play any of the three positions. He has the speed that allowed him to steal three bases in a September backup stint with the Giants last fall. He has very limited power and for a guy who should be a leadoff hitter, walks only about once every 30 plate appearances.

Peguero hit only .194 in the Dominican Winter League, but that may have kept his bat strong for this pre-season. He will need to show he can still hit quite well as pitchers who didn't pitch over the winter catch up.

I predicted Gillespie for this final spot, but he's going to have to get going to win it. Peguero would seem to have the lead, and Pill's two homers have been impressive.

The more the Giants are looking for a power bat off the bench, the more the scales tip toward the 28-year-old Pill. The more they are looking for a little less power but combined with good outfield skills and above-average speed, the more they tip toward the 28-year-old Gillespie.

The more they are looking for a player with better all-around skills similar to Gregor Blanco and Andres Torres, they more they are looking for Peguero, who at 24 still has time to develop.

If Francisco walked as often as Gregor or Andres, I think he'd be in. Since he walks about as often as an 8-month-old baby, it's still a race.

A race, though, that he is likely leading at the moment.

[allenreed]

I like Peguero. I liked him when they brought him up last year, though he really didn't do all that much. The guy just looks like a player.

[sharksrog]

Peguero is a guy Marc liked. Peguero is a guy I didn't like even back then.

He IS intriguing. He has a .309 career average. His fielding and arm are considered to be plus plus. He has stolen as many as 40 bases in a season, and made an impression with his three steals last September. He has probably been the Giants' best all-around player so far this spring.

On the downside, the guy has built his average on a .361 BABIP, which he isn't likely to repeat in the majors. He has just 27 homers in five minor league seasons. Worse, he has only 74 walks. He hit just .194 in winter ball.

Peguero is coming off a serious knee injury suffered in 2011, and in fact, stole just one base in 105 games with Fresno last season. The injury likely contributed to his hitting just .272 last season, and it may have been a factor in the .194 in winter ball.

I see Francisco's ceiling as a 4th outfielder and his likely career as being a 5th outfielder or career minor leaguer.

Perhaps he gets his shot this season at being that 5th outfielder. He very likely will play for the Giants at some point this year -- likely before September.

[allenreed]

I haven't really researched the guy, but thanks for the info. He seemed to spend alot of time in SFlast year without really playing much. The guy can definitely run and throw. He must have been really fast prior to the knee injury.
Isn't he one of these guys they signed when he was underage?

[sharksrog]

Francisco was actually signed as an undrafted free agent out of the Dominican Republic at the age of 19 (I think) or 20. He will turn 25 on June 1st, and he is entering his 6th minor league season.

I mentioned Francisco stole 40 bases when at San Jose. But he also was caught 22 times, meaning that like Gary Brown, he hasn't yet harnessed that speed into base stealing. If we want to see a guy with so-so speed who is a good base stealer (and ultimately I believe, a good base runner), try Brandon Belt. Brandon has stolen 15 bases in 19 attempts in the majors after pilfering 27 in 39 attempts in the minors.

Base stealing is different than base running, and speed is different than either. Sometimes there are slower runners who perform better on the bases than faster ones.

We have been talking about Mike Trout. His success on the bases (both stealing and taking the extra base) were fabulous last season.

Henry Schulman said on KNBR yesterday that "most around baseball" think Mike will not only be in the MVP running many years but will win them a lot of the time. With Trout and Bryce Harper, we may have seen the best year in which two rookies were introduced (although Trout actually played a bunch of games in 2011) since Willie Mays and Mickey Mantle.

It will be fun to follow. Stephen Strasburg may have similar potential on the pitching side, although unlike the other two, he has already suffered a serious injury.

Players today who are, have been or may be REALLY high-level players include Mariano Rivera, Buster Posey, Albert Pujols, Joey Votto, Robinson Cano, Troy Tulowitzki, Alex Rodriguez and the above trio.

[sfgdood]

it's funny that Allen used the phrase "looks like a player" because some friends of mine that frequent Muni Stadium to watch Little Giants games in San Jose used that description about Peguero too. He's got blazing speed, good power and if he ever keeps his swing consistent, he can be a good everyday contributor at some point. He has an absolute bazooka for an arm.

~Dood

[sharksrog]

The sad thing is that there are many players who looked the part who haven't gone on to become good ones. The good thing is that there are others who DON'T look much like athletes who have become good players.

I don't see Francisco's becoming an everyday contributor. If he can become one though, that would be a huge boon to the Giants.

Hunter Pence would love to stay with the Giants long-term. Whether they can afford him or not is a big question. If the speedy duo of Peguero and Gary Brown can become starters as soon as next season -- even as seim-platoon players with Gregor Blanco, Andres Torres and possibly Roger Kieschnich -- that would be a nice help.

Next season the Giants are going to have to re-sign Tim Lincecum and Barry Zito or else pay Zito $7 million not to pitch for them, and likely cough up considerable for two new starting pitchers.

Buster Posey and Madison Bumgarner will cost more, as will the other arb eligibles. If Ryan Vogelsong isn't re-signed at a higher price, the Giants will need yet a third starter. Matt Cain and Mad Bum are locked in, and the Giants' top two prospects are expected to pitch at San Jose this season, along with their #1 draft choice from last season and I believe their #2 choice from 2011.

San Jose is a long way away from San Francisco though, even though the map indicates differently. As good as Cain has been, he didn't open the season with the Giants until two years after he pitched at San Jose.

If the Giants don't re-sign Lincecum, Zito and Pence at the end of the season, they'll save nearly $50 million from this season. But they'll also have three big holes to fill.

Brown, Peguero, Pill/Gillespie/Kieschnick, the young pitchers at San Jose and any pitching breakouts at Fresno could become quite important a year from now. Second baseman/shortstop Joe Panik could enter the equation, as well.

[sharksrog]

Peguero has been so hot that he went 2 for 4 today and saw his average DROP 13 points. Not to be outdone, Gillespie went 2 for 2 to raise his average to .300. Pill got the day off.

[allenreed]

The sad thing is that there are many players who looked the part who haven't gone on to become good ones.

Allen- Not sure how sad it is, but it is true.

I don't see Francisco's becoming an everyday contributor. If he can become one though, that would be a huge boon to the Giants.

Allen- I doubt that he'll really get a good shot with the Giants. They're not likely to put him out there for a month or so and see what he can do.

[sharksrog]

Allen- I doubt that he'll really get a good shot with the Giants. They're not likely to put him out there for a month or so and see what he can do.

Rog -- One of the positives I have heard recently about Bruce Bochy is that he gives young guys an opportunity. Maybe that's because the Giants have a lot of very good, young players, but I think we here give Bruce a horrible rap in that regard.

I'm going to go on record again as believing that those who say he doesn't give youngsters a good shot, well, ought to be given a good shot of reality. As in, how can smart people be so stupid?

All we have to do is look at the facts. That's almost always a good place to start. Here are a few:

. The number of players Bruce supposedly didn't give a chance to who have gone on to success elsewhere is pretty darn small.

Two seasons back Don tried to throw Matt Downs in our faces. Matt was indeed having a nice season, winding up at .276/.846 in 199 at bats. He followed that up last season by hitting .202/.623, and now has a career mark of .230/.702. Let's call him Matt (Fewer Ups
Than) Downs.

Getting away from idiocies such as Jason Ellison, Dan Ortmeyer, etc., let's look at the best and most recent example.

Kevin Frandsen put up a really good season of .338/.834 last year in 195 at bats, bringing his career mark to .267/.686. His career OPS is lower than Matt's AFTER Matt's .202 season of 2012. Frandsen could easily tank this year much as Matt did this past season.

But perhaps he will continue to hit well. If so, he will be the first exception to the "Bruce doesn't miss out on many young guys" rule.

How does Kevin look going forward? Most of the evidence goes against him -- although not all.

Kevin hit so well last season because he posted a prodigious .366 Batting Average on Balls In Play. That compares to his career average of .284 (major league average hovers around .300), so it appears unlikely he will come close to maintaining such a lofty BABIP.

On the other hand, his line drive rate soared to 24.4% compared to a 19.5% career mark. (League average is around 20%).) A high line drive rate correlates with a high BABIP. That's a positive for Kevin, giving hope he can at least come close to maintaining his exceptional BABIP.

But his infield fly balls as a percentage of fly balls leapt alarmingly to 15.8% compared to a career 9.2%, and infield fly ball percentage has a reverse correlation to BABIP. Given that Kevin hit 84 points over his career BABIP and 40 points over his minor league mark, it seems safe to say his average will fall off quite a bit this upcoming season.

We'll just have to stay tuned. A year ago Downs was looking up, too.

Bottom line, though, almost no one that Bochy supposedly has unfairly not given a chance to has gone on to prove him wrong in that regard.

. Bruce gives a shot to the players who deserve it, and to even a few who probably don't.

Pretty easy to see why Buster Posey and Brandon Belt got a big shot. Each leapt through the Giants' system putting up wonderful numbers (including K/BB). One could argue that Belt hasn't been given enough opportunity yet, but he was brought up prematurely and has hit some slumps in which it appeared it might be better for his confidence to sit him than to play him.

How about Pablo Sandoval? Pablo too soared through the system after a slow start, jumping from High A San Jose to the majors in 2008. Pablo was brought up the same time as Ryan Rohlinger, and Rohlinger was given the first shot at third base. But Ryan was caught in a paper bag, while Pablo crushed his way into the lineup. From that point on, their careers went in very, very different directions.

Then there's Manny Burriss. The Giants gave him too MUCH of an opportunity, making him their starting second baseman to start both the 2009 and 2012 seasons. Both times he failed miserably, and has now pretty much established himself as a Four A player.

And how about Gregor Blanco and Nate Schierholtz? Every time the Giants gave the right field job to Schierholtz, he spit the bit due to either non-performance or injury. The Giants gave Blanco a bit of a shot last season, and he came through well enough that he took over left field when Melky Cabrera was suspended.

Blanco wound up playing 141 games, which was 5th on the team and as many as 10 games fewer than only Angel Pagan. Blanco came within 49 plate appearances of qualifying for the batting title.

Then there's Brandon Crawford. He didn't hit when he was called up, but the Giants stuck with him, and he has now started over 200 games in a season and 2/3rds.

So, of the guys whom the Giants didn't give a chance, none have truly panned out (although Frandsen could). Five of their eight position starters are guys they DID give an extended shot to, with only one (Burriss) failing. Make it two if we count Schierholtz, who could fall into either camp.

So the Giants have given the shots to guys who through their play in the minors or in the majors have earned those extended shots. And almost everyone they gave the shot to succeeded -- in two cases at an All-Star level.

The players they didn't give extended shots to have a combined career OPS of less than .700. Not a single one has proven himself with another team, although Frandsen could perhaps do so. Possibly Schierholtz, if we count him in the not-give-a-shot camp.

The results say the Giants know what they're doing.

Regarding Peguero, not only can he make the team, he can become the starter in left field if he proves he deserves it. Gregor Blanco certainly doesn't have a strong enough hold on the position that Peguero couldn't take it away.

So what will they likely get from Peguero if they were to give him the month suggested here?

. Defense that is in the Blanco range, to start with -- and that's a darn good start.


. A batting average that is likely a little higher than Blanco's.

. A little more power than Blanco.

. A guy who doesn't get on base as often as Gregor.

. A guy who isn't the base stealing threat Gregor is.

So all in all, we've got a player who isn't quite as good as Gregor Blanco. Blanco himself is a 4th outfielder who is getting a chance to start because the Giants essentially have no one else.

So if he hits a little better than Blanco, Peguero is likely a 5th outfielder. If he doesn't hit higher than Gregor, he may well be a career minor leaguer.

In order to take advantage of that recommended month of at bats, Francisco has to either hit the heck out of the ball (possible in a short stretch, but not likely over the long term), learn how to take a walk (The crosswalk signal continues to say "Wait" for him, and the Giants can't really afford to.), or hit with power (and his power hitting is taking gas).

Hey, if Blanco gets off to a bad start to the season, the Giants might HAVE to give Peguero a chance. But don't expect Francisco to take advantage of it for long.

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[allenreed]

Mar 7, 2013 12:54:09 GMT -5 sharksrog said:

Allen- I doubt that he'll really get a good shot with the Giants. They're not likely to put him out there for a month or so and see what he can do.

Rog -- One of the positives I have heard recently about Bruce Bochy is that he gives young guys an opportunity. Maybe that's because the Giants have a lot of very good, young players, but I think we here give Bruce a horrible rap in that regard.

Allen- I'm not blaming Bochy, or anyone associated with the Giants. There just isn't an opening for Peguero right now. It's much like the case of Josh Reddick when he was with Boston. Obviously Reddick had the stuff, but there was just too many guys ahead of him. I think the same is true with Peguero.




Regarding Peguero, not only can he make the team, he can become the starter in left field if he proves he deserves it. Gregor Blanco certainly doesn't have a strong enough hold on the position that Peguero couldn't take it away.

Allen- I think Blanco would have to lose the job more than Peguero could win it. I just don't think he will get enough ABs to make an overwhelming case for himself. Not only will Blanco have to fold, but then there's Torres in front of Peguero as well.

[allenreed]

Mar 7, 2013 12:54:09 GMT -5 sharksrog said:

Allen- I doubt that he'll really get a good shot with the Giants. They're not likely to put him out there for a month or so and see what he can do.

Rog -- One of the positives I have heard recently about Bruce Bochy is that he gives young guys an opportunity. Maybe that's because the Giants have a lot of very good, young players, but I think we here give Bruce a horrible rap in that regard.

Allen- I'm not blaming Bochy, or anyone associated with the Giants. There just isn't an opening for Peguero right now. It's much like the case of Josh Reddick when he was with Boston. Obviously Reddick had the stuff, but there was just too many guys ahead of him. I think the same is true with Peguero.




Regarding Peguero, not only can he make the team, he can become the starter in left field if he proves he deserves it. Gregor Blanco certainly doesn't have a strong enough hold on the position that Peguero couldn't take it away.

Allen- I think Blanco would have to lose the job more than Peguero could win it. I just don't think he will get enough ABs to make an overwhelming case for himself. Not only will Blanco have to fold, but then there's Torres in front of Peguero as well.

[sharksrog]

Allen -- There just isn't an opening for Peguero right now. It's much like the case of Josh Reddick when he was with Boston. Obviously Reddick had the stuff, but there was just too many guys ahead of him. I think the same is true with Peguero.

Rog -- As much as I like him, Blanco doesn't have all that much of a hold on left field. Most left fielders have power, which Gregor clearly doesn't. And don't you agree? Gregor just doesn't seem like a 7th place hitter. First of eighth. I guess 7th or 2nd would be next, since clearly he isn't a middle-of-the-order guy.

I really like Gregor. But if he's an every day starter, it would be as a center fielder. With Gary Brown on the way, Gregor's position is very tenuous.

The lack of power hurts Peguero, as well. And Francisco just doesn't look as if he'll ever get on base.

I think Francisco will be very, very good defensively. But although he has a career .309 batting average in the minors, I just don't see nearly enough in his bat.


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[sharksrog]

Allen- I think Blanco would have to lose the job more than Peguero could win it. I just don't think he will get enough ABs to make an overwhelming case for himself. Not only will Blanco have to fold, but then there's Torres in front of Peguero as well.

Rog -- Francisco does have obstacles in his way, but they're far from insurmountable. I just think they're almost insurmountable for him.

I'm just not a fan of guys who don't walk. That almost always means they make too many outs.

You know how basketball players are evaluated by how many points, rebounds and assists they get PER GAME? For an offensive player, a game is 27 outs. Why not measure him measure how many bases a hitter accumulates "per game." Heck, give the "productive out" guy a base for every productive out he makes.

So what do we find? If a guy doesn't walk, he isn't likely to be a good hitter. Too many outs.

Do you notice how most power hitters get walked at least a fair amount of the time? That's because the pitchers FEAR them -- and because they swing and miss a lot, which takes them deeper into the count, which allows them to reach four balls more often.

Basically, we've got three types of hitters, right? Table setter, run producers -- and poor hitters. And what allows a hitter to set the table? Reaching base.

Reaching base is productive two ways:

First, sets the table. Second, it avoids taking away one of the precious three outs in an inning.

A little odd, isn't it, but if a guy doesn't walk much, it is VERY hard for him to be a good hitter.


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[allenreed]

A little odd, isn't it, but if a guy doesn't walk much, it is VERY hard for him to be a good hitter.


Allen- Not all that odd. Two of the basic tenets of hitting are know the strike zone, and get a good pitch to hit.

[sharksrog]

Rog -- A little odd, isn't it, but if a guy doesn't walk much, it is VERY hard for him to be a good hitter.


Allen- Not all that odd. Two of the basic tenets of hitting are know the strike zone, and get a good pitch to hit.

Rog -- It's not see ball, hit ball? One thing we like a hitter to do is make contact. There isn't nearly as much of that today as there once was.

Yet an absolutely pure contact hitter would very rarely walk, since a high percentage of the time he swung, he would make contact and put the ball in play.

An example would be Tony Gwynn. Tony finished with a spectacular .338 career batting average, yet he walked less often than the average batter.

But for the most part, the reason the K/BB ratio test usually works is that strike zone control is demonstrated by not striking out too often and by walking a fair amount of the time.

The guy who has made me think of this is the guy we have been discussing here -- Francisco Peguero. Peguero strikes out about an average amount, but his walk rate is abysmal. Perhaps he will hit, but I'm just not seeing it -- and I say that with his having a red-hot .550 batting average this spring training.

Put another way, Francisco just makes too many outs. His getting on base is FAR too dependent on his batting average, which even among the best of hitters fluctuates quite a bit from season to season.

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[donk]

Mar 8, 2013 11:05:30 GMT -5 allenreed said:

A little odd, isn't it, but if a guy doesn't walk much, it is VERY hard for him to be a good hitter.


Allen- Not all that odd. Two of the basic tenets of hitting are know the strike zone, and get a good pitch to hit.

dk..tell that to Joe DiMaggio....Don Muller won a big game for the '51 Giants when they were giving him an IBB...Dale Mitchell, the young Johnny Mize, JoJo Moore (great 1/2 hitter), Al Dark in his best years, Tommy Davis, Rod Carew, young Ty Cobb, Walker Cooper, Mickey Rivers,Pudge, Al Simmons, Pie Traynor, Honus Wagner,etc,etc,etc,

[sharksrog]

A little odd, isn't it, but if a guy doesn't walk much, it is VERY hard for him to be a good hitter.


Allen- Not all that odd. Two of the basic tenets of hitting are know the strike zone, and get a good pitch to hit.


dk..tell that to Joe DiMaggio....

Rog -- Joe walked 790 times in 6821 at bats. Not an exceptionally low rate.

Don -- Don Muller won a big game for the '51 Giants when they were giving him an IBB...Dale Mitchell,

Rog -- 346 walks in 3894 at bats. A little light.

Don -- the young Johnny Mize,

Rog -- Walks were never less than 10% of at bats. Above average.

Don -- JoJo Moore (great 1/2 hitter)

Rog -- 348 BB/5427 AB. Lowest ratio but not exceptionally low.

Don -- Al Dark in his best years,

Rog -- Interestingly, in 3 of the 4 seasons Blackie hit .300 or more, his walk rate was among his highest. I've probably gone through enough, although I'm tempted to analyze the Etc brothers.

Don -- ommy Davis, Rod Carew, young Ty Cobb, Walker Cooper, Mickey Rivers,Pudge, Al Simmons, Pie Traynor, Honus Wagner,etc,etc,etc,

Rog -- We were discussing Francisco Peguero, who I do believe has a walk rate is much lower than anyone you've mentioned here.

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[donk]

Mar 8, 2013 19:23:41 GMT -5 sharksrog said:

A little odd, isn't it, but if a guy doesn't walk much, it is VERY hard for him to be a good hitter.


Allen- Not all that odd. Two of the basic tenets of hitting are know the strike zone, and get a good pitch to hit.


dk..tell that to Joe DiMaggio....

Rog -- Joe walked 790 times in 6821 at bats. Not an exceptionally low rate.

dk.it is for a great power/average hitter....Joe had a year that he had 80 walks, another 76...the rest of his career he had less than 70....Ted Williams had 9 years with over 100 walks, Ott had 10, Foxx had 7... yes , I think Joe had a low number of walks...and he didn't strike out much, either...

Don -- Don Muller won a big game for the '51 Giants when they were giving him an IBB...Dale Mitchell,

Rog -- 346 walks in 3894 at bats.

dk..A little light. Mueller had 167 walks in 4364 at bats....his most walks in one season was 34 and only hit .281...his best year he hit .342 and had 22 walks v. 212m hits...and the Giants might not have won in1951 without that hit....

Don -- the young Johnny Mize,

Rog -- Walks were never less than 10% of at bats. Above average.

dk...10% is few walks for a guy with his power..The Young Mize...had 56 walks, 57 K's while hitting .364....Foxx...18.2%, Williams 26.2% Ott 18.1 %...I think that 10% is a little light....

Don -- JoJo Moore (great 1/2 hitter)

Rog -- 348 BB/5427 AB. Lowest ratio but not exceptionally low.

dk...exceptionally low for a leadoff hitter....he was replaced by Stanky 996 in 4301 at bats.....

Don -- Al Dark in his best years,

Rog -- Interestingly, in 3 of the 4 seasons Blackie hit .300 or more, his walk rate was among his highest. I've probably gone through enough, although I'm tempted to analyze the Etc brothers.

dk...stats don't lie, but guys who use stats sure do...his 4 best seasons he walked on 42,47,28, 27 times....that is not a lot of walks....

Don -- Tommy Davis, Rod Carew, young Ty Cobb, Walker Cooper, Mickey Rivers,Pudge, Al Simmons, Pie Traynor, Honus Wagner,etc,etc,etc,

Rog -- We were discussing Francisco Peguero, who I do believe has a walk rate is much lower than anyone you've mentioned here.

dk...since Peguero only has had 16 at bats it is a little early to pin a label on him....and besides, Latino players don't take walks until they are here a while...

[sharksrog]

A little odd, isn't it, but if a guy doesn't walk much, it is VERY hard for him to be a good hitter.


Allen- Not all that odd. Two of the basic tenets of hitting are know the strike zone, and get a good pitch to hit.


dk..tell that to Joe DiMaggio....

Rog -- Joe walked 790 times in 6821 at bats. Not an exceptionally low rate.

dk.it is for a great power/average hitter....Joe had a year that he had 80 walks, another 76...the rest of his career he had less than 70....Ted Williams had 9 years with over 100 walks, Ott had 10, Foxx had 7... yes , I think Joe had a low number of walks...and he didn't strike out much, either...

Rog -- I appreciate your demonstrating the original point -- or at least its mirror image. Imagine if Peguero could walk like ANY of those guys -- or even close.


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[sharksrog]

Rog -- Interestingly, in 3 of the 4 seasons Blackie hit .300 or more, his walk rate was among his highest. I've probably gone through enough, although I'm tempted to analyze the Etc brothers.

dk...stats don't lie, but guys who use stats sure do...his 4 best seasons he walked on 42,47,28, 27 times....that is not a lot of walks....

Rog -- There are no lies here (although any implication that ALL guys who use stats lie would clearly be off base), but Al's 5.7% walk rate during those four season is far higher than Francisco's 3.7%. Remember, that is where this discussion started.

In addition, Al's career 98 OPS+ was just below average (100), and as you point out here, the game was different back then -- not as many walks or strikeouts.



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[sharksrog]

Rog -- We were discussing Francisco Peguero, who I do believe has a walk rate is much lower than anyone you've mentioned here.

dk...since Peguero only has had 16 at bats it is a little early to pin a label on him....and besides, Latino players don't take walks until they are here a while...

Rog -- You are absolultely right that 16 at bats is WAY too early to label a player. But over 2000 plate appearances in the minors isn't.

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[allenreed]

JoJo Moore (great 1/2 hitter),

Allen- What's a half hitter?

[sharksrog]

JoJo Moore (great 1/2 hitter),

Allen- What's a half hitter?

Rog -- Johnny LeMaster

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