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Post by sharksrog on Jan 1, 2013 0:05:20 GMT -5
Whom do you like as the top 40 players of the past half century? Top 10 pitchers, and the top three at each other position -- plus six wild cards.
Not all their career must have come in the past half century, but they need to have played in 1963 or later.
Here's my team. I'm going from memory, so come up with your own team. It will probably be better than mine.
Pitchers:
Greg Maddux
Roger Clemens
Pedro Martinez
Sandy Koufax
Bob Gibson
Mariano Rivera
Warren Spahn
Juan Marichal
Jim Palmer
Steve Carlton
Catchers:
Yogi Berra
Johnny Bench
Mike Piazza
First basemen:
Stan Musial
Jeff Bagwell
Willie McCovey
Second basemen:
Joe Morgan
Rod Carew
Jeff Kent
Shortstop:
Alex Rodriguez
Cal Ripken
Ernie Banks
Third base:
Mike Schmidt
Wade Boggs
Chipper Jones
Left field:
Barry Bonds
Rickey Henderson
Manny Ramirez
Center field:
Willie Mays
Mickey Mantle
Duike Snider
Right field:
Hank Aaron
Frank Robinson
Dave Winfield
Wild cards:
Trevor Hofman
Dennis Eckersley
Jeff Kent
Todd Helton
Tim Raines
Joe Mauer
What's your team? I'm sure I missed at least a few. Maybe a lot.
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donk
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Post by donk on Jan 2, 2013 2:44:47 GMT -5
Ken Griffey, Jr. Jeter, Vlady, Nolan Ryan, Kuenn, Eddie Mathews, Yaz,Clemente, Billy Williams,
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Post by allenreed on Jan 2, 2013 11:53:41 GMT -5
Alot of these guys had their real glory days more than 50 years ago. No Jeter? No Pujols? Too many roid cases (ARod, Bonds, Manny, Clemens). Banks played the majority of his career at first base. Can Kent be both on the list, and a wild card? I might have at least put Pujols ahead of Todd Helton. Might have went for Griffey Jr. ahead of Snider. Other than that, not bad.
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Post by sharksrog on Jan 2, 2013 12:06:28 GMT -5
Don -- Ken Griffey, Jr. Jeter, Vlady, Nolan Ryan, Kuenn, Eddie Mathews, Yaz,Clemente, Billy Williams, Rog -- All good considereations, with the exception of Harvey Kuenn, who wouldn't be a serious consideration unless one put him at shortstop, where he played over 40% of his games. But even then, ahead of Trammel or Yount, two other guys I forgot? I don't think Old Harv was even the best shortstop on the Tigers alone over the 50 years. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1422&page=1#8211#ixzz2Gq2cAK6M |
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Post by sharksrog on Jan 2, 2013 12:14:48 GMT -5
Allen -- Alot of these guys had their real glory days more than 50 years ago. Rog -- Indeed they did, although my only qualification to make the team was that the player had to have played at least in 1963 or beyond. Perhaps I should have based it on contributions MADE over the past 50 years, but then Musial and Mantle wouldn't have made it, and Mays might not have. As it was, I hated that I had to leave off Ted Williams, whose last season was 1960. Allen -- No Jeter? No Pujols? Rog -- Bad errors on my part. Allen -- Too many roid cases (ARod, Bonds, Manny, Clemens). Rog -- Wouldn't it be better to leave that unsaid? It's not as if I didn't expect you to comment. Wouldn't it have been more effective to surprise us and let the point be moot? Allen -- Banks played the majority of his career at first base. Rog -- And Musial played the majority in the outfield. Not sure whether Rodriguez (forgot Pudge, too, although that one would be close) has yet played more games at third than short, but he soon will if he hasn't already. Allen -- Can Kent be both on the list, and a wild card? Rog -- Well, he DID play more than one position.  In reality, I simply threw the list together in a very few minutes and didn't go back and edit it, which I will do in my next post. Allen -- I might have at least put Pujols ahead of Todd Helton. Rog -- WAY ahead of Todd, who won't even make my next list. Allen -- Might have went for Griffey Jr. ahead of Snider. Other than that, not bad. Rog -- Griffey would indeed have been a better choice, had I remembered him. And while I appreciate the compliment, the list wasn't really very good. It did at least generate a LITTLE commentary on the board though, and man has it been dead during the holidays. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1422&page=1#ixzz2Gq4NdcZV |
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Post by klaiggeb on Jan 2, 2013 12:15:21 GMT -5
Might have went for Griffey Jr. ahead of Snider. Other than that, not bad.
boly says---
Allen, if you didn't see the Duke play, you wouldn't be so quick with Griffey. don't get me wrong, great player... but he had an advantage the Duke did not. OTHER than Ebbits field, the ballparks were much, much bigger than when "I have no idea how to wear my hat so I wear it backwards Griffey."
Less days off, bigger parks. As I say, you had to see him play to appreciate him.
boly
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Post by sharksrog on Jan 2, 2013 12:48:31 GMT -5
With the help of Don and Allen, here is my revised list.
Pitchers:
Greg Maddux
Roger Clemens
Pedro Martinez
Sandy Koufax
Bob Gibson
Mariano Rivera
Warren Spahn
Juan Marichal
Steve Carlton
Jim Palmer
Catchers:
Yogi Berra
Johnny Bench
Mike Piazza
First base:
Stan Musial
Albert Pujols
Willie McCovey
Second base:
Joe Morgan
Rod Carew
Jeff Kent
Shortstop:
Cal Ripken
Derek Jeter
Ernie Banks
Third base:
Alex Rodriguez
Mike Schmidt
Wade Boggs
Left field:
Barry Bonds
Rickey Henderson
Manny Ramirez
Center field:
Willie Mays
Mickey Mantle
Ken Griffey, Jr.
Right field:
Hank Aaron
Frank Robinson
Roberto Clemente
Wild cards:
Nolan Ryan
Willie McCovey
Duke Snider
Edgar Martinez
Wade Boggs
Al Kaline
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donk
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Post by donk on Jan 2, 2013 14:32:27 GMT -5
Don -- Ken Griffey, Jr. Jeter, Vlady, Nolan Ryan, Kuenn, Eddie Mathews, Yaz,Clemente, Billy Williams, Rog -- All good considereations, with the exception of Harvey Kuenn, who wouldn't be a serious consideration unless one put him at shortstop, where he played over 40% of his games. But even then, ahead of Trammel or Yount, two other guys I forgot? I don't think Old Harv was even the best shortstop on the Tigers alone over the 50 years. dk..of course, there are many short stops who had career .300 averages, over 2000 hits and got elected to 8 all-star games.....but Trammell was pretty good, too....and Yount is in the HOF...and has a very nice cousin, Heather, who just got married...about the same time Robin was filling in his resume to be a future VP by shooting his friend in the face in a hunting accident...oops.... Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1422&page=1#8211#ixzz2Gq2cAK6M |
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Post by sharksrog on Jan 2, 2013 15:32:17 GMT -5
dk..of course, there are many short stops who had career .300 averages, over 2000 hits and got elected to 8 all-star games... Rog -- No question Harv was a good player, although the Indians got by far the worse of the Colavito/Kuenn trade. He got perhaps half his 2092 career hits while playing shortstop. And he was a nice, versatile player for the Giants in 1962, although the rest of his career with them was mediocre at best. Of all the players who have entered this discussion, I would say Harvey is the outlier. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1422&page=1#8217#ixzz2Gqsi0C8Y |
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Post by allenreed on Jan 2, 2013 17:03:39 GMT -5
Allen -- Too many roid cases (ARod, Bonds, Manny, Clemens).
Rog -- Wouldn't it be better to leave that unsaid? It's not as if I didn't expect you to comment. Wouldn't it have been more effective to surprise us and let the point be moot?
Allen- Why should it be left unsaid? Are we just ignoring it, hoping it will go away? It won't. The point will never be moot. Nor should it be. These guys cheated. Whenever they're discussed, no matter the venue, that point should always be front and center.
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Post by allenreed on Jan 2, 2013 17:09:48 GMT -5
I notice on the new list Winfield bit the dust for Clemente. I thought about that when I was looking over the initial list, but decided it was a close call.
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Post by allenreed on Jan 2, 2013 17:15:57 GMT -5
Might have went for Griffey Jr. ahead of Snider. Other than that, not bad. boly says--- Allen, if you didn't see the Duke play, you wouldn't be so quick with Griffey. don't get me wrong, great player... but he had an advantage the Duke did not. OTHER than Ebbits field, the ballparks were much, much bigger than when "I have no idea how to wear my hat so I wear it backwards Griffey." Less days off, bigger parks. As I say, you had to see him play to appreciate him. Allen- I actually did see Duke play. He pinch hit for the Giants in a game I was at late in his career (and early in mine. I was around nine). But I know what you mean. Junior was quite a player too though. More homers (226 more), even though Snider played most of his career in a bandbox, and probably a better fielder, though Duke in his prime was certainly no slouch. Snider often begged off against good lefties too, which I don't remember Junior doing. |
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Post by Islandboagie on Jan 2, 2013 17:40:40 GMT -5
Pitchers:
Greg Maddux
Roger Clemens
Pedro Martinez
Sandy Koufax
Bob Gibson
Mariano Rivera
Warren Spahn
Juan Marichal
Steve Carlton
Jim Palmer
Catchers:
Yogi Berra
Johnny Bench
Mike Piazza
First base:
Stan Musial
Albert Pujols
Willie McCovey
Second base:
Joe Morgan
Rod Carew
Jeff Kent
Shortstop:
Cal Ripken
Derek Jeter
Ernie Banks
Third base:
Alex Rodriguez
Mike Schmidt
Wade Boggs
Left field:
Barry Bonds
Rickey Henderson
Manny Ramirez
Center field:
Willie Mays
Mickey Mantle
Ken Griffey, Jr.
Right field:
Hank Aaron
Frank Robinson
Roberto Clemente
Wild cards:
Nolan Ryan
Willie McCovey
Duke Snider
Edgar Martinez
Wade Boggs
Al Kaline
Boagie- IMO Randy Johnson is likely the best left-handed pitcher in the last 50 years, if not in history. He should make the list.
If you want to make a list of best offensive numbers, Mike Piazza makes the list. If you're looking for best overall player at that position.. Ivan Rodriguez and Gary Carter should be ahead of Piazza, perhaps even Joe Mauer.
No question Yogi Berra was a great catcher, but Yogi's last year was in 1963 and he didn't even have 200 at-bats that year. Perhaps stretching it a bit with Yogi.
I know Carew was a hit machine, but if you were to build a team, who would you rather have as your second baseman, Rod Carew or Roberto Alomar?
Alomar was the more complete player. He was better defensively, better base runner, had more pop and still batted .300 for his career. To me, it's a no-brainer.
Allen brought up the steriods, and I got to thinking...There may be a slight bias here. On one hand you're letting Bonds, Clemens, Manny and Arod slip in, but yet Sammy Sosa nor Mark McGwire is even mentioned on the wlid card list. Is there a specific reason they aren't? or did you just overlook them both? I'm curious, because I do believe Sammy Sosa's image has been destroyed the most by the steriod era coming to light. Others have escaped, especially David Ortiz who is still considered a big ol' cute teddy bear by the east coast media. The same media that would love to see Bonds drawn and quartered for his unforgiveable crimes against humanity.
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Post by sharksrog on Jan 2, 2013 21:39:10 GMT -5
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Post by sharksrog on Jan 2, 2013 21:44:23 GMT -5
Rog -- Wouldn't it be better to leave that unsaid? It's not as if I didn't expect you to comment. Wouldn't it have been more effective to surprise us and let the point be moot? Allen- Why should it be left unsaid? Are we just ignoring it, hoping it will go away? Rog -- Not at all. That isn't what I'm saying at all. What I am saying is that you've beaten the topic to death to the point where it would have been refreshing -- and appropriate -- had you left it off this time (and perhaps the next 20 times , as well). Mention it once in a while, but we know your position, and you're simply aggraviting us with it. Whether we agree with you or not. And don't forget, I'm not in complete disagreement with you on the issue. I might indeed not vote for the known steroid guys for the Hall. But to not include them among the best players would be even worse than ignoring Joe Jackson from the all-time list. And, yes, I realize Jackson did nothing to enhance his performance. That reminds me, I might consider Pete Rose for my Wild Card list. I wasn't as big a fan as many (loving the way he played, but considering him far from the best of his era), but he does hold the all-time hits record and was indeed quite a hitter. And while he may not have played them all well, he played a lot of positions. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1422&page=1#ixzz2GsObSj3f |
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donk
New Member
Posts: 23
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Post by donk on Jan 2, 2013 21:44:51 GMT -5
Might have went for Griffey Jr. ahead of Snider. Other than that, not bad. boly says--- Allen, if you didn't see the Duke play, you wouldn't be so quick with Griffey. don't get me wrong, great player... but he had an advantage the Duke did not. OTHER than Ebbits field, the ballparks were much, much bigger than when "I have no idea how to wear my hat so I wear it backwards Griffey." Less days off, bigger parks. As I say, you had to see him play to appreciate him. Allen- I actually did see Duke play. He pinch hit for the Giants in a game I was at late in his career (and early in mine. I was around nine). But I know what you mean. Junior was quite a player too though. More homers (226 more), even though Snider played most of his career in a bandbox, and probably a better fielder, though Duke in his prime was certainly no slouch. Snider often begged off against good lefties too, which I don't remember Junior doing. dk..Snider had one big advantage, he was the only regular left handed batter in the every day lineup of the Dodgers....one year, only 2 left handers started against the Dodgers...and Snider had a tummy ache on both days.....and the funny thing was the Duke had some good stats against lefties....Ebbets Field had close fences in left and center, but right field had a high fence...although it had a lower cement wall with a mesh fence on top of it....there were very few lucky homers that stuck in the wire or fell on the ledge of the cement wall and stayed there.....I really got a thrill watching Babe Ruth hit those majestic boomers over the right field fence in batting practise... |
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Post by sharksrog on Jan 2, 2013 21:46:06 GMT -5
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donk
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Post by donk on Jan 2, 2013 21:47:41 GMT -5
I notice on the new list Winfield bit the dust for Clemente. I thought about that when I was looking over the initial list, but decided it was a close call. dk...I would take Vlady over Manny.... |
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Post by sharksrog on Jan 2, 2013 21:49:43 GMT -5
Boagie -- If you want to make a list of best offensive numbers, Mike Piazza makes the list. If you're looking for best overall player at that position.. Ivan Rodriguez and Gary Carter should be ahead of Piazza, perhaps even Joe Mauer. Rog -- Tough call on that one. I might move Mike to the Wild Card list, but he is the best-hitting catcher ever. Joe Mauer is probably second, but he hasn't played enough to quite warrant my putting him on the list (although I believe I had him on my original one. He's right on the cusp time-wise). Buster Posey may be the third-best hitting catcher, but he has almost no history at all. There haven't been any Willie Mays/Hank Aaron types of catchers, but as you point out, there have been a lot of very, very good ones. Carlton Fisk is another. And Mike Sadek, of course. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1422&page=1#ixzz2GsQQxNJT |
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Post by sharksrog on Jan 2, 2013 21:54:56 GMT -5
Boagie -- I know Carew was a hit machine, but if you were to build a team, who would you rather have as your second baseman, Rod Carew or Roberto Alomar? Alomar was the more complete player. He was better defensively, better base runner, had more pop and still batted .300 for his career. To me, it's a no-brainer. Rog -- I had a tough time on that call. Certainly Roberto was the better fielder by far. I agree with you on Roberto, although I might replace Kent instead of Carew. But Alomar is a player I mis-evaluated the first time around. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1422&page=1#ixzz2GsRbpdA1 |
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Post by sharksrog on Jan 2, 2013 21:58:25 GMT -5
Boagie -- No question Yogi Berra was a great catcher, but Yogi's last year was in 1963 and he didn't even have 200 at-bats that year. Perhaps stretching it a bit with Yogi. Rog -- It is stretching things a L-O-T with Yogi as for his contribution to the past 50 years. But remember, the qualification for the team was only that the player played in 1963 or later. I used the entire careers of players, and Yogi might be the greatest catcher ever. Probably not, but he's right up there. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1422&page=1#ixzz2GsSeHPeE |
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Post by sharksrog on Jan 2, 2013 22:00:17 GMT -5
By the way, thanks for the great comments thus far. I'm having to modify my team more than I thought.
Don's point about Guerrero vs. Ramirez is a good one, although Guerrero was a right fielder and thus would need to break Aaron/Robinson/Griffey, Jr.
I'm still looking at my team, trying to improve it with the suggestions of all you guys.
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Post by Islandboagie on Jan 3, 2013 11:53:44 GMT -5
Boagie- IMO Randy Johnson is likely the best left-handed pitcher in the last 50 years, if not in history. He should make the list.
Rog -- Completely blew it with Randy. He moves into the 10-man pitching staff, replacing Steve Carlton. Steve moves to the Wild Card list, reluctantly replacing Al Kaline.
Boagie- I agree, I would also consider replacing Jim Palmer with Tom Seaver.
While Rivera is a great closer, I'm not sure if he belongs amongst the top pitchers in the last 50 years. Unless of course you want to make an actual category for relievers. Otherwise, I think I'd be perfectly comfortable with Bob Gibson closing out games, and Randy Johnson being the left-handed specialist.
At first base, although McCovey seems like an obvious choice, you might want to compare his numbers with that of Frank Thomas. Thomas should at least warrant a spot amongst the wild cards.
At 3rd. Chipper's career OPS is .930, 72 points higher than Boggs' .858.
Why is Arod considered a 3rd baseman? He's played most of his career at shortstop. IMO the 3 shortstops should be Banks, Jeter, Arod. I like Cal Ripken and his work ethic, but his stats don't quite match up with the others. Also moving Arod to SS would then free up a spot for Chipper Jones at 3rd.
Carl Yazstremski also seems like he belongs somewhere on this roster, even if it's just as a wild card.
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Post by allenreed on Jan 3, 2013 12:23:24 GMT -5
Rog -- Wouldn't it be better to leave that unsaid? It's not as if I didn't expect you to comment. Wouldn't it have been more effective to surprise us and let the point be moot? Allen- Why should it be left unsaid? Are we just ignoring it, hoping it will go away? Rog -- Not at all. That isn't what I'm saying at all. What I am saying is that you've beaten the topic to death to the point where it would have been refreshing -- and appropriate -- had you left it off this time (and perhaps the next 20 times , as well). Mention it once in a while, but we know your position, and you're simply aggraviting us with it. Whether we agree with you or not. And don't forget, I'm not in complete disagreement with you on the issue. I might indeed not vote for the known steroid guys for the Hall. But to not include them among the best players would be even worse than ignoring Joe Jackson from the all-time list. And, yes, I realize Jackson did nothing to enhance his performance. Allen- The point is never moot. It's the dominating factor when evaluating these guys. You act as if these guys are victims, and the fact that they used steroids was somehow beyond their control. These guys are cheaters, who made a conscious decision to cheat. They should not be honored in any way, even a way as insignificant as being included on your list. I know you want to see Bonds honored, and you want to supress any talk of steroids associated with him in hope that the stigma will somehow fade away, but it won't, and it shouldn't. When one thinks of Bonds, the first word that comes to mind is "steroids", and that's exactly as it should be. With him and the other cheaters. |
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Post by sharksrog on Jan 3, 2013 12:50:31 GMT -5
Boagie- I agree, I would also consider replacing Jim Palmer with Tom Seaver. Rog -- Oh my gosh. Seaver. Might be THE best pitcher of the last half decade. How could I forget him? That makes the pitching calls even more difficult. He takes Carlton's place. As for Mariano, I hear what you're saying here, but while starters are usually more valuable than relievers, how can we ignore the pitcher with the lowest ERA of any pitcher in history who never pitched in the dead ball era? Hoyt Wilhelm is a guy who could make this list too. And Mariano's 2.21 career ERA is nearly a third of a run lower than Hoyt's 2.52. Then come Whitey Ford at 2.74 and Koufax at 2.76. Good grief, Ford might also deserve to be on this list. It's getting REALLY crowded! ERA+ equalizes parks and is the most objective method of comparing pitchers of different eras. Mariano's 206 ERA+ means he has been more than TWICE as good at preventing runs as the average pitcher. Rivera's 2.21 ERA has come during a time when the AVERAGE pitcher in the same circumstances has a 4.55 career mark. Rivera's 2.21 career ERA translates to a 1.62 during the Year of the Pitcher when Bob Gibson set the ERA record with a 1.12 mark. And in Rivera's case, we're talking about a CAREER, not a single season when Gibson's ERA was over a full run lower than any other season in his career. The great Sandy Koufax never had a SINGLE season where his park-adjusted ERA was as good as Mariano's CAREER mark. Rivera blows away Pedro Martinez's 154 ERA+ by much more than Martinez's 154 blows away Koufax's 131 career mark or Gibson's 127. Gibson has pitched more than a quarter better (27%) better than the average pitcher. Koufax pitched nearly a third better (31%). Martinez pitched more than half again at well (54%). But Rivera more than DOUBLED (plus 106%) the average pitcher in preventing runs. Take away his rookie season, and Rivera's career ERA almost breaks 2.00 (2.02). Since his age 38(!) season his ERA has been 1.72. Mariano hasn't thrown nearly as many innings as most great pitchers, but when he HAS been on the mound, he has been the greatest pitcher ever. As I have expressed here many times, I believe closers are overrated. But Mariano has been so UNBELIEVABLY good for so long (18 seasons), I have to place him in the top 10. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1422&page=1#8232#ixzz2GvylDWX4 |
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Post by sharksrog on Jan 3, 2013 12:52:00 GMT -5
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Post by sharksrog on Jan 3, 2013 12:58:22 GMT -5
dk..Snider had one big advantage, he was the only regular left handed batter in the every day lineup of the Dodgers....one year, only 2 left handers started against the Dodgers Rog -- Don makes a good point here. The other Don (Donald Edwin) posted only a .743 OPS against southpaws and had only 14% of his plate appearances against them. Nonetheless, Duke's 140 OPS+ is very impressive. Even if he had faced a more normal amount of southpaws, it would likely be as good if not better than Roberto Clemente's 130. Don's point might be just enough to move Duke out though. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1422&page=1#ixzz2Gw6mHhBg |
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Post by sharksrog on Jan 3, 2013 13:00:51 GMT -5
Another name for consideration: Reggie Jackson. MAN, there have been a lot of great players in the past half century. And players such as Buster Posey, Joe Mauer, Clayton Kershaw, Ryan Braun, Mike Trout, Bryce Harper and Stephen Strasburg haven't yet had enough time to prove whether they belong on the list.
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Post by sharksrog on Jan 3, 2013 13:02:33 GMT -5
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Post by sharksrog on Jan 3, 2013 13:10:14 GMT -5
Boagie -- Why is Arod considered a 3rd baseman? He's played most of his career at shortstop. IMO the 3 shortstops should be Banks, Jeter, Arod. Rog -- MLB Network rated Alex in their top 9 at BOTH shortstop and 3rd base. As for Banks, he played more added games at first base compared to shortstop as Alex has played at shortstop compared to third. Alex will wind up his career with more games at third base than shortstop, just as Ernie wound up with more games at first. One thing I notice about Alex is that his career has benefitted from playing in some very nice hitters' parks. He's a great player, but at one time I would have considered putting him in my top five all-time if he could have kept it up. He's not THAT good. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1422&page=1#ixzz2Gw95yp10 |
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In reality, I simply threw the list together in a very few minutes and didn't go back and edit it, which I will do in my next post.