Relievers

[sharksrog]

In another thread, we have been focusing on the concept of closer vs. closer-by-committee.

Yet there are many of us here on the board who are old enough to remember when it was "fireman" rather than "closer."

The first example I remember of a great fireman was Elroy Face in 1959. Elroy saved just 10 games. In three seasons he had 20 or more saves, and in 11 seasons he had as many or more saves than he had in 1959.

Yet 1959 was arguably the season in which Elroy put on his best, er, effort. Face went a phenomenal 18-1. He finished 7th in the MVP voting, which may have been the highest a reliever had finished at that time.

Now THAT'S a fireman.

Cut to Mike Marshall. In five straight seasons -- seven overall -- Marshall pitched 99 or more relief innings. Now THAT'S a fireman.

Over 1973 and 1974 combined, Marshall pitched 198 games in relief, totalling 387 (!) innings. He saved 52 games and won 29.

Now THAT'S a fireman.

I mention this in part because, while it won't happen, think how effective Tim Lincecum might be in such a role.

Lincecum didn't close a single game in the 2012 postseason, yet look what a weapon he was. Just think of Lincecum getting a hold one day, a save the next. And then coming back three days later to pitch four innings of important middle-inning relief.

In other words, a fireman.

[klaiggeb]

I mention this in part because, while it won't happen, think how effective Tim Lincecum might be in such a role.

Lincecum didn't close a single game in the 2012 postseason, yet look what a weapon he was. Just think of Lincecum getting a hold one day, a save the next. And then coming back three days later to pitch four innings of important middle-inning relief.


---boly says---

Well, I'll have to type this again because even though I hit "post," it, well, didn't.

Anyway, I sort of agree, Rog.

But I think Tim could close.

Of course, he'd be much like that old Baltimor/Dodger reliever...

Don (fullpack/Stan the Man Unusual) Stanhouse, who used to drive Earl Weaver completely cookie-boo with his INABILITY to quickly close out a game.

Great stuff, but struggled with strikezone command.

Ummm. Sounds like Tim.

As you say, not likely to happen, but he would, IMHO, be good at it.

boly

[Islandboagie]

I think we can all agree that sticking a 2 time Cy Young award winner in the bullpen would be a very nice weapon to have. I'm sure even Bochy has thought about the possibility of that going forward. But, as nice as that would be, it's also unrealistic considering the price of Timmy's contract. I know it won't happen. And Bochy has people he has to answer to who wouldn't allow it.

However, I have mentioned that if Brian Wilson is not resigned that getting someone less expensive to fill the "fireman" role wouldn't be a horrible idea.

I mentioned Jonathan Sanchez, most here pooh poohed the idea.

But let's look back at Jonathan's success in the bullpen. Also consider that when Jonathan lost his command, it was usually around the 4th or 5th innings. I don't have his career ERA by innings stats, but I'd be willing to bet the 4th and 5th and maybe the 6th innings are his highest.

We also know Jonathan has bullpen-type stuff.

After last year Jonathan might also come fairly cheap.

Looking at all the factors here, IF we WERE to adopt a "fireman" role (which we won't) I think Jonathan Sanchez would be a realistic choice.

[Islandboagie]

I just saw Rich Harden was signed to a minor league deal by the Twins, he too would have been a decent choice as a "fireman."

[donk]

IF the Giants were to move Tim to the pen, they would need another starter.....and I don't see anyone in their system to become a starter.....which worries me because what happens if one of the starters gets injured....replacing a starter in mid-season can be a costly deal...

[klaiggeb]

IF the Giants were to move Tim to the pen, they would need another starter.....and I don't see anyone in their system to become a starter.....which worries me because what happens if one of the starters gets injured....replacing a starter in mid-season can be a costly deal...

--boly says---

And therein lies the problem, Don. I... don't think Tim will regain even close to his former form... but... we've no one to take his spot. At least not this year.

I think the Giants are obligated to roll Tim on out there again in 2013. Considering his past, they have to at least give him that shot.

heck, I could be wrong. And if I am... Good deal for us and all Giant fans.

If I'm not wrong, well, Sabean has been very good at finding other options mid season. I mean, consider:
Lopez, Rameriz, Ross, Burrell, Scutaro, Keppinger, Freddy Sanchez.

there may be others, but those are the ones I remember.

Not to shabby when you think about it, and I would like to know what other GMs have done as well mid season.

and as much as I HATED (in retrospect), the Beltran deal, THAT could have worked out, too.

If Nady had been able to stay healthy, THAT could have been a steal.

so 'could' Brian come up with a 'deal' at the break? I wouldn't put it past him, but I also do NOT want to be in the position where we have to find out.

boly

[sharksrog]

Boagie -- I mentioned Jonathan Sanchez, most here pooh poohed the idea.

Rog -- If you mentioned it a while ago, I think I might remember it.

I certainly like the idea of signing Jonathan to a minor league contract if that could be done. I think he has been injured since the end of May, 2011, so perhaps he can get well and put it back together.

As for your idea that he relieve, I like it. I don't think many here remember how fabulous Jonathan was for the first month or so he came up as a reliever.


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[sharksrog]

Don -- IF the Giants were to move Tim to the pen, they would need another starter.....and I don't see anyone in their system to become a starter.....which worries me because what happens if one of the starters gets injured....replacing a starter in mid-season can be a costly deal...

Rog -- For reasons mentioned here by others, Tim almost certainly isn't going to go to the bullpen this season -- at least not for a long time.

As for the Giants' not having depth beyond the five-man rotation, they certainly don't -- nor did they last season. They do have three things going for them though.

First, they have shown the willingness to make mid-season deals to fill holes that develop.

Second, they will likely make some minor league signing in hopes that they can indeed add depth.

Third, the rotation they have has been remarkably durable -- with the exception of Vogelsong early in his career. This was discussed last season, and the regular rotation started 160 of the 162 games. (The other two came in a rainout-induced double header and also the day after the Giants clinched.)

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[sharksrog]

Boly -- as much as I HATED (in retrospect), the Beltran deal, THAT could have worked out, too.

Rog -- I hated the deal (or at least disliked it very much) at the time it was made. I did, however, understand why it was made.

Brian had said he wouldn't make a deal for a rent-a-player, and then he went against his own better judgment. Had Carlos been able to stay healthy, perhaps the Giants would have made the postseason.

But unless they won it all, the deal wouldn't have worked out. Had they won it all and then been able to re-sign Carlos to the same two-year contract the Cardinals signed him for, it would indeed have been worth it (assuming Carlos stays healthy in 2013).

But with or without Carlos, the Giants' chances of winning the World Series with two catchers who couldn't hit .200 were slim. Which made trading Zack Wheeler a big mistake.

Here is what Mark Hulet of Fan Graphs said of Wheeler: "A half year of veteran outfielder Carlos Beltran cost the San Francisco Giants dearly when they shipped Wheeler to the east coast. The right-hander instantly became the organization’s No. 1 prospect, narrowly edging Matt Harvey for the distinction. Wheeler’s repertoire includes a 91-95 mph fastball that can touch the upper 90s, a potentially-plus curveball and two developing pitches: a changeup and a cutter."

Wheeler simply helped his stock this past season, pitching well in AA and earning a late-season promotion to AAA.

If the Giants hadn't trade Zack, they would have depth beyond their five-man rotation.



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[sharksrog]

Boly -- so 'could' Brian come up with a 'deal' at the break? I wouldn't put it past him, but I also do NOT want to be in the position where we have to find out.

Rog -- It is highly likely they will be. They were in first place when they traded for Beltran, and they were in first place when they traded for Scutaro and Pence.

It isn't simply the trailers who make deadline trades to strengthen themselves.

The Beltran trade was a bad one because they gave up too much. The Pence trade and particularly the Scutaro trades were good because they didn't have to give up a lot.

The only negative to the Pence trade is that he will be very expensive going forward. But if they so choose, the Giants can take all of next season to evaluate whether to offer Hunter a long-term contract. He is eligible to become a free agent at the end of the 2013 season.


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