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Post by sharksrog on Nov 23, 2012 18:58:53 GMT -5
Joe Panik is considered by many to be the most natural hitter in the Giants' organization. He controls the strike zone, walking quite often while striking out little.
Joe had a tough AFL, batting only .205 with little power. Still, there were some good points.
He struck out only 7 times while walking 10 times. That shows he was seeing the ball, even if he wasn't hitting it hard consistently. Or maybe that he hit in tough luck.
Although not considered a base stealer, he thefted four bags with impunity.
Not a good postseason for Panik, who fared much better a year ago while hitting .323 in Arizona. Still, Joe continued to control the strike zone, actually besting his 10/9 K/BB ratio from a year ago.
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Post by klaiggeb on Nov 25, 2012 10:46:10 GMT -5
Joe Panik is considered by many to be the most natural hitter in the Giants' organization. He controls the strike zone, walking quite often while striking out little.
---boly says---
All of the above may be true, Rog, but from all that I read, and have read about Joe... his defense is more than questionable.
Can't have that in our park. Can't.
boly
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Post by sharksrog on Nov 26, 2012 17:12:00 GMT -5
Rog -- Joe Panik is considered by many to be the most natural hitter in the Giants' organization. He controls the strike zone, walking quite often while striking out little. ---boly says--- All of the above may be true, Rog, but from all that I read, and have read about Joe... his defense is more than questionable. Can't have that in our park. Can't. Rog -- I have both a comment and a question. The comment: I think Joe is a bit short on both range and arm for shortstop, but I think he will be OK at second base. And if Brandon Crawford continues to play as he did last season, second base is where Joe will play. As an aside, the "knock" on Joe coming out of college was the same as it was with Buster Posey -- limited upside. I'm not expecting Joe to be nearly the player Buster is -- offensively or defensively -- and Buster's "limitations" dropped him to only 5th overall, while Joe dropped to the lower first round and was considered a bit of a surprise even that high. But I do think Joe has a fine shot at becoming a solid player. Think a mirror image of Freddy Sanchez (Joe hits lefty.) with a little lower batting average and a little less defense -- but a higher OBP and a little more pop. Like Freddy, Joe will likely bat 2nd. The question: I think you're fine with Marco Scutaro returning, yet I know you don't like Marco's glove (in terms of range). I'm guessing you think Joe's defense will be well below the level of Marco? I think you may be pleasantly surprised in that regard. I'm not expecting Gold Gloves from Joe, even at the keystone. But as a second baseman, I think his defense will be OK. While I say I think his range may be dubious for shortstop, he's not slow. Including the AFL, he is 27 for 36 in steals. And in the old K/BB ratio area, he's 96/105, which is impressive. Because he was 9/10 in this year's AFL, I wasn't overly worried about his .205 batting average (just as we shouldn't have worried about Buster's .225 BA three years before). And Joe did hit .323 in the 2011 AFL. If we take the two AFL's combined, Joe has hit .269. I think he'll hit higher than that in the majors. His career minor league average is .312. Average those out, and you might not be too far off. Maybe a little closer to the lower than the higher. I believe Joe will hit a little, get on base, and be a solid starter. I expect Gary Brown to be a stellar defender, but not get on base enough. Gary should be up a year from now, and Joe should be no more than a year behind. Gary just turned 24, and Joe turned 22. They are two days from being exactly two years apart. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1378&page=1#7667#ixzz2DMqTUtJ5 |
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Post by klaiggeb on Nov 27, 2012 11:13:44 GMT -5
The question: I think you're fine with Marco Scutaro returning, yet I know you don't like Marco's glove (in terms of range). I'm guessing you think Joe's defense will be well below the level of Marco? I think you may be pleasantly surprised in that regard.
---boly says---
I can't comment much on Panik's range because I only know what I've read. And, based upon what I've read, we can live with his hard hands at 2B... but not at SS.
Scutaro truely has "Kent-poor" range. But he'll make all the routine plays, and really, for me, that's number one.
boly
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Post by sharksrog on Nov 27, 2012 12:42:23 GMT -5
I'm curious to know where you saw the 'bad hands“ comment, Boly. I had read that Joe didn't really have the range and arm for shortstop and would likely wind up at second base. I think I even read that he would be pretty good on that side of second. Here is what Joe himself said, courtesy of NBC Bay Area:
"I got a quick release,” Panik said. “I’m very accurate. I’m not the strongest of arms, but I get rid of it quick, and I still have a good baseball IQ where I understand the runners, how to handle certain balls, and how to get rid of it.”
Panik has a career .969 fielding percentage at shortstop in the minor leagues, which doesn't suggest rock hands.
Here is one scouting report on Joe's defense:
"Panik has nice range and can get to balls deep in the hole at shortstop but he doesn’t have the arm strength that you would expect to see for a future major league regular and this is a problem. While there are camps out there that think he can play average defense for the Giants and that his arm will get stronger as he climbs the ladder, I tend not to agree. It’s been two and a half years since his shoulder surgery and I have a hard time buying that it’s going to get any stronger. Let’s address the 800 pound flying pink elephant in the hole at short right now – He’s going to be a second baseman."
And another:
"A polished college shortstop from St. John's, Joe Panik is the closest thing to MLB-ready in the Giants system today, though he's more likely than not to be deployed at second base for the big club."
No mention of a bad glove from Kevin Goldstein, who I believe just went to work for a major league organization, actually with a fancy-sounding administrative scouting title.
"According to Kevin Goldstein of Baseball Prospectus, Panik lacks speed and a first-step quickness vital to (shortstop)."
This is a draft scouting report:
"He has the soft hands and quick feet to play short, but his range and arm strength may be better suited for second base."
As for hitting, Joe says he knows that without being a power hitter, he needs to take some walks to get on base. He appears to be a patient hitter who knows how to keep an at bat alive.
Joe is known for his hard work and intelligent approach to the game.
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Post by sharksrog on Nov 27, 2012 12:44:16 GMT -5
By the way, I haven't seen Joe play, so I'm hoping he has good hands -- don't know it for sure. I think Randy has seen him play, so it would be nice if he weighed in.
Of course, the other side is that if you haven't seen a guy play A LOT, it is easy to get a misconception one way or the other.
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Post by klaiggeb on Nov 28, 2012 9:40:32 GMT -5
I'm curious to know where you saw the 'bad hands“ comment, Boly. I had read that Joe didn't really have the range and arm for shortstop and would likely wind up at second base. I think I even read that he would be pretty good on that side of second. Here is what Joe himself said, courtesy of NBC Bay Area:
"I got a quick release,” Panik said. “I’m very accurate. I’m not the strongest of arms, but I get rid of it quick, and I still have a good baseball IQ where I understand the runners, how to handle certain balls, and how to get rid of it.”
Panik has a career .969 fielding percentage at shortstop in the minor leagues, which doesn't suggest rock hands.
Here is one scouting report on Joe's defense:
"Panik has nice range and can get to balls deep in the hole at shortstop but he doesn’t have the arm strength that you would expect to see for a future major league regular and this is a problem. While there are camps out there that think he can play average defense for the Giants and that his arm will get stronger as he climbs the ladder, I tend not to agree. It’s been two and a half years since his shoulder surgery and I have a hard time buying that it’s going to get any stronger. Let’s address the 800 pound flying pink elephant in the hole at short right now – He’s going to be a second baseman."
---boly says---
Rog, the reviews you've posted are almost the exact opposite of what I've read. It was one of the links associated with the Giant website that I read... a week? Two weeks ago.
Wish I could remember the author.
boly
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Post by Islandboagie on Nov 28, 2012 12:17:35 GMT -5
Joe Panik was the Hebrew National defensive player of the year this year in San Jose. I've heard a few say that he's such a natural that they find him hot-dogging it out there....The chicks dig him too, they say he's got a nice pair of buns...
In all seriousness, I've heard he's a good defender, and a real professional and a good teammate. For example at the annual San Jose Giants alumni barbeque him and Jason Grilli really hit it off...ok, sorry, I'll stop.
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donk
New Member
Posts: 23
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Post by donk on Nov 28, 2012 14:16:39 GMT -5
as I have said many times before, if the Giants intend to play Panik at second...move him, now !!! The Giants have a fairly high draft choice in Jurica who they switched from SS to 2B and put up some decent numbers playing with Panik....if they think Panik is the better prospect as a 2B then they should switch the 2 of them and see how it plays...
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Post by sharksrog on Nov 28, 2012 15:11:44 GMT -5
Don -- as I have said many times before, if the Giants intend to play Panik at second...move him, now !!! The Giants have a fairly high draft choice in Jurica who they switched from SS to 2B and put up some decent numbers playing with Panik....if they think Panik is the better prospect as a 2B then they should switch the 2 of them and see how it plays... Rog -- Your point is well-taken. When we see Joe switch to second base, I think we can assume the Giants are satisfied with Brandon Crawford as their present and future shortstop. Right now continuing to play Joe at shortstop provides insurance for Brandon. Most shortstops can pick up the other infield positions pretty quickly. Thank you, Boly, for the clues as to where you saw what you saw. I'll try to find it and will let the board know if I am able to do so. In the meantime, here is what I think: Panik is something of a natural hitter -- perhaps a very poor man's Buster Posey. Joe doesn't have that kind of power (although some think 15 homers might be possible), but he should hit for a good average (probably not the .300-.310 that Buster is likely to hit over his career, but perhaps 10 to 20 points lower). He controls the strike zone and is able to foul off pitches. He is, as Boagie mentioned, a wonderful teammate. I saw a picture of him, and when I cut it off to show just the head, he could have been a brother of Buster Posey. He's cut from that same kind of cloth. Defensively, I think he will make a good second baseman, but I believe his range is a little short for a, well, something-stop. I think his surgerically-repaired arm is the bigger issue as a shortstop. I'm hoping the information Boly read about his having a clunky glove is wrong, and that Panik is more of a Dick Groat-type shortstop with the same instincts, more speed, but less arm. Here is what I think may be what Boly saw -- something that indicated Joe was having fielding difficulties in the AFL. I don't even know if he played second or short (or both), but I do believe he made several errors. Overall though, he's been a fairly solid fielder -- even at shortstop. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1378&page=1#7709#ixzz2DY8NQ1RH |
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Post by Islandboagie on Nov 28, 2012 21:56:04 GMT -5
I'm surprised nobody found my corny Hebrew National jokes funny.
As for Panik, personally I have no clue about his skills on the baseball field. I saw him play in one AFL game but that's it. The only thing I know of him is what I've heard in analysis and written interviews. What I can take from that is he's a good kid who prides himself on his work ethic, patience at the plate and his knowledge of the strike zone. And he did in fact win the Hebrew National defesive player of the year...Certainly a solid base to build from.
Rog, you also make a very good point about shortstops being able to convert to another infield position easily. IMO the Giants see Brandon Crawford as their shortstop for many years to come, so I don't think they kept Panik at SS to replace Crawford in the future. It's likely they are playing Panik at shortstop because on San Jose last year he might have been the best shortstop. If he was billed to be our shortstop and was playing second base then we'd have a reason for concern.
It's likely the Giants believe having Panik play shortstop now won't hurt his success at playing second base in the future. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that the best defensive second baseman on our team is Brandon Crawford..fortunately for us, he's easily the best shortstop too.
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Post by sharksrog on Nov 29, 2012 1:42:12 GMT -5
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