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Post by rxmeister on Sept 10, 2013 6:59:13 GMT -5
That's TWO clutch hits for my friend Boagie, who can't seem to remember clutch Brandon Belt hits, so hopefully he'll remember these. And for my other friend, Dood, who says Belt is just a singles hitter, one was a double and the other was only scored a single because it ended the game!
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Post by Islandboagie on Sept 10, 2013 12:11:46 GMT -5
No question Brandon came through in the clutch last night. But, you act as if my statements before were inaccurate. The Belt we're seeing now is the Belt I want to see. Unlike SOME posters here I will acknowledge when my previous statements are no longer holding up. We saw last night his teammates go out and mob him extra hard because he has been up and down a lot. They know he's starting to come of age after a lot of difficulty. If I were his teammate I would have been one of the first out there because right now I like what I see. But again, this is the same guy who was batting .250 while we were plummeting in the standings, he can't just become a hole in the lineup for a long period of time when we need him most. I hope the adjustments he's made has changed that, but we won't know until next season.
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Post by allenreed on Sept 10, 2013 12:26:24 GMT -5
Seems to me that Belt is held to a higher standard than the other players. Pablo has been a cypher for most of the year, hurt again and not in shape again. Until his recent three homer game he had hit like one homer since May. Yet he gets a pass. Belt, who is in his second full season, must hit like Gehrig and field like Hernandez, or he needs to be s***canned.
We also had a poster here who wanted to get rid of Brandon because in his opinion, Belt suffered too many mental lapses. Didn't have his head in the game. Yet this same poster wants to hand Lincecum, who often fails to cover or back up bases, can't hold runners on, and admits to losing focus, a big contract.
Timmy could have had a win last night, but he failed to cover home on a ball Posey fielded in front of the plate. The runner raced around third as if he expected Tim not to cover. Guess the Rockies have good advance scouts.
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sfgdood
Long time member 
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Sept 10, 2013 14:10:15 GMT -5
Seems to me that Belt is held to a higher standard than the other players. Pablo has been a cypher for most of the year, hurt again and not in shape again. Until his recent three homer game he had hit like one homer since May. Yet he gets a pass. Belt, who is in his second full season, must hit like Gehrig and field like Hernandez, or he needs to be s***canned.
Dood - If you're referring to me, I never said he needed to hit like Gehrig and field like Hernandez or be shitcanned. But certainly my expectations for him are very high. Is there something wrong with that? You constantly get on Pablo for not reaching his potential. I do the same for Belt because I feel he's got a lot more that he hasn't shown at the big league level.
We also had a poster here who wanted to get rid of Brandon because in his opinion, Belt suffered too many mental lapses. Didn't have his head in the game.
Dood - and before Brandon started to hit with consistency those mental lapses were more galling. They have continued, though with less frequency. If you're not hitting, you'd better be sharp in other parts of the game.
Yet this same poster wants to hand Lincecum, who often fails to cover or back up bases, can't hold runners on, and admits to losing focus, a big contract.
Dood - I don't want the Giants to "hand" anyone a big contract. If they do sign Timmy to another contract, it will because they believe his pitching, not fielding, will be worth the contract. And I'm pretty sure they will expect much in return of their investment.
Timmy could have had a win last night, but he failed to cover home on a ball Posey fielded in front of the plate. The runner raced around third as if he expected Tim not to cover. Guess the Rockies have good advance scouts.
Dood - If so they would have had to be clairevoyant. Can you name me even one instance of this exact play happening to Lincecum this year? Or any year? As for Tim not getting the win, isn't it more important that the team won than any individual pitcher? The fact is that even with that gaffe, and it was egredious, Tim still only gave up 2 runs in 8 innings...a line that most objective fans would call outstanding. On balance, Tim did much more to contribute to the win than deter it.
~Dood
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Post by allenreed on Sept 10, 2013 14:37:31 GMT -5
Dood - If you're referring to me, I never said he needed to hit like Gehrig and field like Hernandez or be shitcanned. But certainly my expectations for him are very high. Is there something wrong with that? You constantly get on Pablo for not reaching his potential. I do the same for Belt because I feel he's got a lot more that he hasn't shown at the big league level.
Allen- Here's a question. Who do you think has more potential, Pablo or Brandon?
Nothing wrong with having high expectations, but give him some time. In only his second full season, he seems to be realizing them.
Pablo's in his fifth full season, and still hasn't learned enough to get in shape, and continues to be injured alot. Brandon's still learning, while Pablo is just continuing to put obstacles in his own path.
In short, I believe Brandon's doing all he can to become the player he should be, while Pablo most certainly is not.
We also had a poster here who wanted to get rid of Brandon because in his opinion, Belt suffered too many mental lapses. Didn't have his head in the game.
Dood - and before Brandon started to hit with consistency those mental lapses were more galling. They have continued, though with less frequency. If you're not hitting, you'd better be sharp in other parts of the game.
Allen- Sometimes a player, especially a young player, will let a hitting slump affect the rest of his game.
Yet this same poster wants to hand Lincecum, who often fails to cover or back up bases, can't hold runners on, and admits to losing focus, a big contract.
Dood - I don't want the Giants to "hand" anyone a big contract. If they do sign Timmy to another contract, it will because they believe his pitching, not fielding, will be worth the contract. And I'm pretty sure they will expect much in return of their investment.
Allen- Worked that way last time, didn't it?
Timmy could have had a win last night, but he failed to cover home on a ball Posey fielded in front of the plate. The runner raced around third as if he expected Tim not to cover. Guess the Rockies have good advance scouts.
Dood - If so they would have had to be clairevoyant. Can you name me even one instance of this exact play happening to Lincecum this year? Or any year? As for Tim not getting the win, isn't it more important that the team won than any individual pitcher? The fact is that even with that gaffe, and it was egredious, Tim still only gave up 2 runs in 8 innings...a line that most objective fans would call outstanding. On balance, Tim did much more to contribute to the win than deter it.
Allen- Yes. Timmy pitched very well. But his fielding gaffe cost him the chance at a win. He could have had a loss had Belt not saved his bacon.
I don't think clairvoyance would enter into it. I could see a scouting report on Timmy saying that he frequently doesn't cover bases or back them up, and for the base coaches and runners to watch for it. It doesn't have to be that exact play, just watch for him not to carry out his fielding assignments.
At any rate, whether he pitched well or not is irrelevant. What matters is that again, he didn't have his head in the game. You're all over Belt about it, but Timmy gets a pass. Why shouldn't Tim be held accountable as well? Is Tim too dumb to know what he's supposed to do? I don't think so. Is he too good to be bothered with fundamentals? Certainly hasn't been the case the last two seasons.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Sept 10, 2013 15:25:12 GMT -5
I would say Belt saved the TEAM's bacon because, honestly, fielding gaffe or no, the team should be able to push across 3 runs and if the Giants (and Tim) had lost 2-1, I'd have placed more blame on the offense than on Tim.
You can say I give Tim a pass, and that's fine. I know this...pitching is about not giving up runs. That gaffe did cost us one run, but the overall performance of Tim was good enough to win...and the team did in fact win. Why get your chonies in a bunch about something that cost us nothing? If you notice, I do give Belt a pass when we win the game. If we lose and one of his brain farts contributed, I will be all over him.
The scouting report. if it were accurate, would more likely say "at times" instead of "frequently" doesn't cover or back up bases.
~Dood
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Post by allenreed on Sept 10, 2013 15:31:26 GMT -5
People piss and moan here when you bring up Timmy's w/l record. Well, he could have bettered that last night, but he couldn't be bothered to cover home. he might have had to move 10 feet or so. Maybe that's part of the reason Tim doesn't win as much as he should.
If this was an isolated incident, your chonies (?) comment would make sense. but it happens alot. Tim himself says he loses focus. A baseball game is usually just over three hours long. Half that time Tim is sitting on the bench. He can't focus for that short period? ADD?
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Post by sharksrog on Sept 11, 2013 1:45:55 GMT -5
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Post by sharksrog on Sept 11, 2013 1:52:00 GMT -5
Allen -- Timmy could have had a win last night, but he failed to cover home on a ball Posey fielded in front of the plate. The runner raced around third as if he expected Tim not to cover. Rog -- Even though I pointed out how in just one INNING Tim didn't cover first base properly in the 2009 All-Star game, I don't think I've EVER been as frustrated with Tim as on that play. But in the concept of full disclosure, we should probably mention that the next batter blooped a single which would have scored the runner anyway. By the way, while there is no question the responsibility of covering the plate belonged to Tim, a really heads-up team would have also had Pablo Sandoval going to cover the plate while Brandon Crawford covered third. When I played, I tried to think where the ball MIGHT go, since I just loved to get my hands on it. Players don't always think that way. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=2000&page=1#ixzz2eZ2oRh00 |
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Post by sharksrog on Sept 11, 2013 1:55:39 GMT -5
Allen -- Guess the Rockies have good advance scouts. Dood - If so they would have had to be clairevoyant. Can you name me even one instance of this exact play happening to Lincecum this year? Rog -- I thought Allen overstated his point a bit too, although from his tone, one can see he was referring to Tim's mental fielding failures, not specifically that particular play. I did see Tim back up a base later in the game though. I have to admit I'm rather shocked at his lack of fundamentals as a fielder rather than as a pitcher when he's on the mound. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=2000&page=1#ixzz2eZ4Fk7Tr |
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Post by sharksrog on Sept 11, 2013 1:58:27 GMT -5
Randy -- But certainly my expectations for him are very high. Is there something wrong with that? Rog -- I could argue either side of that question. On the one hand, I don't think it was at all wrong to have high expectations for Brandon based on how outstandingly he performed in the minors. On the other, I think one should have adjusted his expectations downward based on his early performances in the majors. I will say this though. Since you seemingly gave up on Brandon, he HAS met your lofty expectations at the plate. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=2000&page=1#ixzz2eZ5B4BjC |
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Post by sharksrog on Sept 11, 2013 1:59:49 GMT -5
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Post by sharksrog on Sept 11, 2013 2:02:26 GMT -5
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Post by sharksrog on Sept 11, 2013 2:04:33 GMT -5
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Post by allenreed on Sept 11, 2013 13:24:02 GMT -5
By the way, while there is no question the responsibility of covering the plate belonged to Tim, a really heads-up team would have also had Pablo Sandoval going to cover the plate while Brandon Crawford covered third.
Allen- Obama blaming Bush again. A real heads up player would have covered home like he was supposed to. No blaming Pablo here. Tim screwed up what should be a basic fundamental part of his job. Again.
At this point in his career, this stuff should be rote. He shouldn't even have to think about it. Lack of focus. Again.
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Post by rxmeister on Sept 11, 2013 22:21:15 GMT -5
And another clutch hit for Belt today, winning the game with an RBI single in the eighth. Another for Boagie's memory bank!
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Post by allenreed on Sept 12, 2013 0:14:06 GMT -5
And another pretty nice performance by Petit. Three runs in 5.2. I'd take that out of a back end of the rotation guy most of the time. Bochy left him in a little too long. One small critique though. he simply has to throw inside once in awhile. He keeps hitting the outside corner, but the Rockies eventually adjusted and started taking him to right.
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Post by rxmeister on Sept 12, 2013 9:15:18 GMT -5
That's the same problem he had against the Dbacks in his start in Arizona. He doesn't like to come inside, probably because of all the long balls he allowed in the minors. He's going to have to learn that it's ok to give up the occasional long ball in return for seizing control of both sides of the plate and keeping the batter guessing. Besides, AT&T can be forgiving when the batter gets a hold of a mistake,
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Post by allenreed on Sept 12, 2013 13:42:42 GMT -5
I agree. he seemed almost obstinate about not coming inside yesterday. I think if he can get that fixed, he'll be more effective. Word will get around and teams will do just what the Rockies did yesterday. Heck, if Zito can pitch inside, Petit certainly can.
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Post by klaiggeb on Sept 12, 2013 15:58:55 GMT -5
Allen- Here's a question. Who do you think has more potential, Pablo or Brandon?
Rog -- That is indeed a good question. I think it's close. I think Brandon is the better fielder of the two (although Pablo himself has great potential in that area), and I think because he walks more than Pablo, Brandon has a tiny bit more hitting potential.
---boly says---
Allen, I know you didn't ask me, but if you don't mind, I'd like to throw in my two cents.
I think Pablo has more potential (provided, of course he loses, and keeps the weight off)
One may ask, "why?"
My reasons are simple:
1-With the bat, Pablo has a more simple, less complex swing. The bat starts flat and stays mostly flat.
How many times have I pointed out the goofy angle of Belt's bat in the hitting zone?
he's getting better, but that goofyness is going to cause prolonged hitting slumps BECAUSE there is less bat in the zone with which to square up the ball.
2-We've made fun of Pablo, and I called him 'fatso' many times.
But the fact is that since he's lost the weight, he's been extremely quick to his left and right. He has sure, soft hands, and rarely makes a bad thrown.
IMHO, he's raised his play to where I would include him in Gold Glove conversations.
I can't say that about Brandon.
Yes, he's made some excellent plays. But all too often, we've seen him do... well, goofy things; such as break the wrong way on a ball hit to his right when he's already way off the bag.
I think BOTH are quality defenders, but because of the bat angle, because Pablo makes less DEFENSIVE mental mistakes, I think he has more potential.
boly
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Post by klaiggeb on Sept 12, 2013 16:00:33 GMT -5
Allen- Here's a question. Who do you think has more potential, Pablo or Brandon?
Rog -- That is indeed a good question. I think it's close. I think Brandon is the better fielder of the two (although Pablo himself has great potential in that area), and I think because he walks more than Pablo, Brandon has a tiny bit more hitting potential.
---boly says---
Rog, I'm truly surprised you gave Belt the edge.
I urge you to consider how little bat head is so often in the hitting zone with Brandon.
I go back to that goofy, almost criquet-style swing he often employs.
boly
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Post by klaiggeb on Sept 12, 2013 16:01:53 GMT -5
One small critique though. he simply has to throw inside once in awhile. He keeps hitting the outside corner, but the Rockies eventually adjusted and started taking him to right.
---boly says---
Allen, I only saw the 8th and 9th innings of this game, but I agree. THAT has been what I've been saying to my TV every time I see him pitch.
boly
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Post by allenreed on Sept 12, 2013 16:36:18 GMT -5
Allen- Here's a question. Who do you think has more potential, Pablo or Brandon? ---boly says--- Allen, I know you didn't ask me, but if you don't mind, I'd like to throw in my two cents. Allen- I asked Randy, I believe, but everyone is certainly free to comment. I think Pablo has more potential (provided, of course he loses, and keeps the weight off) One may ask, "why?" My reasons are simple: 1-With the bat, Pablo has a more simple, less complex swing. The bat starts flat and stays mostly flat. How many times have I pointed out the goofy angle of Belt's bat in the hitting zone? Allen- I think that's changed with the recent adjustments he has made. I think Belt worries more about the fundamentals of his swing, while Pablo looks more like a "see ball, hit ball" guy. 2-We've made fun of Pablo, and I called him 'fatso' many times. But the fact is that since he's lost the weight, he's been extremely quick to his left and right. He has sure, soft hands, and rarely makes a bad thrown. IMHO, he's raised his play to where I would include him in Gold Glove conversations. Allen- He's got quick hands and a quick first step, Many here act as if he's the second coming of Brooks Robinson, or at least Billy Cox, or maybe Graig Nettles, yet Pablo still gets replaced for defensive reasons late in games. I would agree Pablo has the potential to be a truly great player. That's why I find his rather cavalier attitude towards his conditioning so aggravating. I think if he had taken himself and his career more seriously, he could have been on his way to the HOF right now. I think Belt has the chance to be a very, very good hitter, though I don't think he'll ver be a big time power hitter, especially if he stays with the Giants and continues to play at AT&T. He's shown the ability to hit to all fields. I see him as being in the mold of a Tony Oliva or a Mark Grace. |
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Post by klaiggeb on Sept 12, 2013 16:41:21 GMT -5
But the fact is that since he's lost the weight, he's been extremely quick to his left and right. He has sure, soft hands, and rarely makes a bad thrown.
IMHO, he's raised his play to where I would include him in Gold Glove conversations.
Allen- He's got quick hands and a quick first step, Many here act as if he's the second coming of Brooks Robinson, or at least Billy Cox, or maybe Graig Nettles, yet Pablo still gets replaced for defensive reasons late in games.
I would agree Pablo has the potential to be a truly great player. That's why I find his rather cavalier attitude towards his conditioning so aggravating. I think if he had taken himself and his career more seriously, he could have been on his way to the HOF right now.
I think Belt has the chance to be a very, very good hitter, though I don't think he'll ver be a big time power hitter, especially if he stays with the Giants and continues to play at AT&T. He's shown the ability to hit to all fields. I see him as being in the mold of a Tony Oliva or a Mark Grace.
---boly says---
You raise a good point, Allen. Bochy still does replace him late.
But I wonder... DOES he replace him because he's not good enough, or because Pablo IS STILL suffering from back and foot problems, and wants to give him as much rest as possible.
I think that, between the two of them, Arias comes in on the ball better, and, since he's a SS, likely has better range.
But I honestly think Pablo has been awfully good lately.
As to his weight, you KNOW I agree with you.
Hopefully, and my fingers are crossed, he now SEES what he can become.
Lord, I hope so.
boly
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Post by allenreed on Sept 12, 2013 16:46:45 GMT -5
For my money, I think Arias is very underrated. I think he could be a regular for alot of teams, and would flourish with regular PT.
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Post by sharksrog on Sept 13, 2013 9:52:32 GMT -5
Boly -- Rog, I'm truly surprised you gave Belt the edge. I urge you to consider how little bat head is so often in the hitting zone with Brandon. I go back to that goofy, almost criquet-style swing he often employs. Rog -- The same can be said though of Pablo's strike zone judgment. Brandon is a very streaky hitter, but so is Pablo. I think the reason I give Brandon the slight edge in potential is that he can get on base without having to rely as much on his batting average. Pablo also has a tougher time staying healthy. Pablo hit a LOT better in 2009 and 2011 than Brandon has shown us, but Brandon has outhit Pablo slightly over the past two seasons. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=2000&page=1#14871#ixzz2emg0CSq4 |
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Post by klaiggeb on Sept 13, 2013 11:29:56 GMT -5
Rog -- The same can be said though of Pablo's strike zone judgment.
Brandon is a very streaky hitter, but so is Pablo.
I think the reason I give Brandon the slight edge in potential is that he can get on base without having to rely as much on his batting average. Pablo also has a tougher time staying healthy.
Pablo hit a LOT better in 2009 and 2011 than Brandon has shown us, but Brandon has outhit Pablo slightly over the past two seasons.
---boly says---
No question, Pablo has ADD of the bat the way he chases crap.
But here's the thing; WHEN the bat's in the hitting zone, it's relatively flat.
Belt's bat is not. It's all too often at an oblique angle, which minimizes the area of the bat which can be applied to the ball.
boly
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Post by rxmeister on Sept 14, 2013 7:34:05 GMT -5
I don't agree that Arias would be a quality regular. As a backup he's fine, playing mostly against left handed pitching, but he doesn't hit right handers well. He's also powerless, and corner infielders should hit for power, unless you play him at SS where he doesn't really have the range to be a good one. Interesting thing about him though. He was once considered a top prospect when he started with the Yankees, and Texas chose him over Robinson Cano in the ARod deal. And people talk about Sabean!
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Post by allenreed on Sept 14, 2013 11:04:13 GMT -5
He's a middle infielder more than a corner infielder. He's got excellent range at short, probably more range than Crawford, although Brandon has a better glove. He can play all four infield positions, and I believe with regular playing time he would hit.
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Post by Islandboagie on Sept 14, 2013 11:36:54 GMT -5
I think you're both right and both wrong at the same time. I agree with Allen that his defense and range at shortstop is above average. But I disagree that with extended time he would hit more. In small doses Arias is good, but when asked to fill in for an extended amount of time I believe his lack of offense is exposed (like last year with Pablo.) Now, I don't know what he would do if he was a starter, but based on his history I'd assume his offense would start to struggle.
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