Should the Giants shut down Cain?

[sfgdood]

Cain's always been very durable. I'm sure that if we were still viably in the race for the postseason, he wouldnt even miss a start...or at most one...no DL time. That said, the Giants have a lot invested in him. He's pitched a lot of innings, postseason included, in the last few years. Wouldn't it be in Matt's and the team's best interest to just shut the horse down for the rest of the year and give him some extra rest to get ready for 2014? I like the idea of seeing more of our youngsters. I have been saying all month long that players learn a lot more even just sitting on the Big League pine during September than they would sitting on their couch. The more experience they get, the better they will be. If you have ANY expectation at all for future contributions from a prospect, then why not call him up? I don't see the harm in filling all 40 spots. Show us the kids, Sabean.

~Dood

[rxmeister]

Alot of those kids are not on the 40 man roster, which is why they don't get called up. You have to DFA players to make room for them. I also don't think it helps to call them up for a taste of the big leagues if they're not ready. They could be overmatched and then they might start doubting themselves. Lastly, this team doesn't have a great crop of kids almost ready so it doesn't make sense anyway. They're not in the team's plans for 2014. There's an old baseball axiom about not putting too much in what you see in a prospect in September. They could just have a couple of good weeks and fool you into a bad offseason decision. I heard they're calling up Juan Perez and Heath Hembree. They've already recalled a few players already in Peguero, Petit and Kieshnick. They'll probably add one or two more, like Tanaka.

[allenreed]

I agree with you Randy. I'd shut Matt down and I certainly wouldn't let Zito see the mound again, except possibly in a mopup role. Whatever we have, get them up here and give them a taste. If they fail, it doesn't have to destroy their confidence. Look at what you did wrong, and learn from it. At least you'll know what it takes to succeed at this level. Petit is just a career minor leaguer. I'm not sure I'd even give him a start. I'd give Surkamp a couple lof looks.

[sfgdood]

Posey failed in September 2009 and he turned out ok, I think. Fans always talk about shattering a prospect's confidence. I say that's a bunch of hogwash...more like weeding out the mental midgets. Like Crash Davis said, you need to learn to play with fear and arrogance (not ignorance, ya hayseed)...be cocky even when you're getting beat. The best hitters in this game fail in 65-70% of their ABs. The best pitchers get lit up once in a while (ask Justin Verlander). If you can't handle failure, this isn't the game for you.

Bring the kids up...let them learn. Let's see what we've got to work with and who's expendable.

~Dood

[rxmeister]

Posey only had 17 at bats and was also the former college player of the year and a "can't miss" prospect. Of course he wasn't going to let a few atbats get him down. None of their prospects fits this criteria though. I do agree that some players should be called up and used though. There's really no point though because Bochy won't play them. I already heard two stupid things come out of his mouth the last couple of days. He said Pagan will play every day to show the team and himself that he's completely healed and he won't sit Hunter Pence down even once because of some ridiculous consecutive game streak. He's going to continue to use his regulars.
I realized I didn't answer the question about Cain.,I'm actually glad they put him on the DL, because that's the only way he'll get rest.,Bochy will keep running his pitchers into the ground unless someone higher up steps in. I wouldn't let the starters go past five innings the rest of the way, or use a 6 or even 7 man rotation.

[sharksrog]

Randy -- Posey failed in September 2009 and he turned out ok, I think. Fans always talk about shattering a prospect's confidence. I say that's a bunch of hogwash...

Rog -- I think it depends on the player and the situation. Buster was called up to get a feel for the majors, not to play. On the other hand, Brandon Belt was called up to play, and quite possibly did get his confidence hurt.

I know we disagree on this, Randy, but I do think it would have been a disservice to Gary Brown to bring him up a month ago to play. But then I don't know his psyche, so I'll go with the Giants' decision (which wasn't to bring him up at this time).

I just don't think Gary is ready, and hope he will be sometime next season. I don't think calling him up a month ago would have improved those chances much, and they might even have hurt them.

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[sharksrog]

Randy -- Bring the kids up...let them learn. Let's see what we've got to work with and who's expendable.

Rog -- A great idea -- except that the Giants don't appear to have much that is ready to help, or perhaps even close to being good enough and/or ready.

The Giants have already called up a lot of position players this season, and none have truly been very helpful. They've fared better with the guys they have called up to help the bullpen. Heath Hembree is expected to come up when the active rosters expand in September.


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[sfgdood]

so you're saying the 40 man roster means nothing? Or are you saying these kids can learn more sitting on their couch playing xbox than they can in a big league clubhouse? Or is it both?

~Dood

[sharksrog]

Randy -- so you're saying the 40 man roster means nothing?

Rog -- No, it means a lot. It allows a team to protect players for up to three extra years without having to bring them up to the majors.

Randy -- Or are you saying these kids can learn more sitting on their couch playing xbox than they can in a big league clubhouse? Or is it both?

Rog -- I think players would learn more sitting on their couch playing X-Box, although their risk of injury due to carpal tunnel would be higher.

I have no problem with bringing up EVERYONE on the 40-man roster -- with two possible exceptions:

First, that time could affect a player's future arbitration and/or free agency status.

Second, teams seem to like to limit the numbers a bit, perhaps so that players don't get lost. There is only so much playing time available for September callups, so perhaps splitting it up too thinly isn't a good idea. The coaches also have only so much time to devote to helping the players adjust.

I think the Giants do have to put Gary Brown on the 40-man roster in order to protect him. If so, I think he's just about 100% to be added prior to the Rule V draft. The timing of that could have something to do with whether he is called up.

This may seem odd, but if the Giants DO call up Gary for September (which I think is unlikely), that might mean they think he is FURTHER away from making the bigs on the 25-man roster than if they don't call him up. I don't think you would want to call up a player now, then have him begin his career before a month into next season, whereas if you don't call him up, you buy a little more time before he has to become a free agent and/or be arbitration-eligible a year sooner.

I would think too that teams might use a September callup as something of a reward for good play during the season. In that instance, I don't think Gary would qualify.


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[sfgdood]

With regard to FA/Arbitration eligibilty time frames, I was under the belief that it wasnt the 40 man but the 25 man roster that started that clock ticking. Am I wrong there?

With regard to Gary, I don't think the Giants will care too much about starting that clock early on him. If they believe him to be a 4th outfielder like you believe they do, why would they worry about his FA clock? And as you have said repeatedly, he's not young (by top prospects' standards). If he's going to contribute, it's going to have to be fairly soon. I would think if Gary doesn't force his way onto the roster sometime in 2014, the Giants will give up and trade him within a year. Then we'll find out which of us was right about him.

~Dood

[sharksrog]

Randy -- With regard to FA/Arbitration eligibilty time frames, I was under the belief that it wasnt the 40 man but the 25 man roster that started that clock ticking. Am I wrong there?

Rog -- I believe it is time in the big leagues. Buster Posey qualified for arbitration as a Super Two after last season even though he was brought up on May 28th -- 22 days later than Tim Lincecum, who WOULDN'T have been a Super Two if he had been a Super Two if the Giants had waited even ten more days to call him up.

Buster qualified as a Super Two because of his service time as a September callup in 2009.

Randy -- With regard to Gary, I don't think the Giants will care too much about starting that clock early on him. If they believe him to be a 4th outfielder like you believe they do, why would they worry about his FA clock? And as you have said repeatedly, he's not young (by top prospects' standards). If he's going to contribute, it's going to have to be fairly soon. I would think if Gary doesn't force his way onto the roster sometime in 2014, the Giants will give up and trade him within a year. Then we'll find out which of us was right about him.

Rog -- You are likely right that the Giants aren't as concerned about Gary's arbitration/free agency clock as they would have been on Tim Lincecum and Buster Posey. Still, I don't think it is something a team totally ignores.

If Gary could somehow adjust his hitting, he could still become a top center fielder, in which case the clock could be quite important. I don't think that is likely, but it isn't an impossibility. I think the primary reason the Giants aren't likely to bring him up this September is that he hasn't earned it.

Both Juan Perez and Kensuke Tanaka have been up and would appear to be more likely candidates. In addition, the Giants would immediately need to take someone off the 40-man roster if they promoted Gary, whereas they would have more flexibility if they waited until this winter.

Gary has just really struggled this season. He's 2 for 21 right now. He's hitting just .233 with four strike outs per walk. His one positive at the plate has been his power -- 29 doubles, 6 triples and 13 home runs.



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[rxmeister]

Bobby Evans said something about bringing up Hembree, Perez and Ehire Adrianza, a slick fielding shortstop, who has hit surprisingly well since being promoted to Fresno.

[sharksrog]

Mark -- Bobby Evans said something about bringing up Hembree, Perez and Ehire Adrianza, a slick fielding shortstop, who has hit surprisingly well since being promoted to Fresno.

Rog -- Baseball is a weird game. Randy can verify that at San Jose, Ehire was the slappiest of hitters, while Gary Brown simply tore it up. And yet Adrianza is hitting 69 points higher at Fresno than Gary is.

Actually, I think I have seen Ehire hit only from the left side of the plate, so perhaps he has a more normal swing from the right side. He's showing MUCH more pop from the right side at Fresno.

Not too long ago, Ehire was considered the best defensive shortstop the Giants had -- ahead of even Brandon Crawford. I suspect Adrianza's hitting at Fresno is a bit of a fluke, but if so, it's certainly an intriguing fluke. Ehire's career average is just .247.

His strength is plate control, with basically three strikeouts for every two walks. His weakness is pop, with just 1.38 bases per hit. Who knows? Maybe Ehire could hit at the major league level, at least from the right side. That would make him a nice complement to Crawford.

I'm not sure how optimistic I am about Adrianza, but a guy with a great glove certainly has value, and I'll be excited to see him play.

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[rxmeister]

Adrianza might be a pesky leadoff hitter with that walk rate, but I can't see him taking the job from Crawford. Could be a valuable utility player though. And if he's better defensively than Crawford, I really can't wait to see him.

[sfgdood]

I would say Ehire's main strength is his range, sure-handedness and fluidity in the field. I never saw much from him as a hitter that really wowed me. I remember thinking he would be a decent backup but not expecting a lot of hits from him. He is just 24 so maybe he is catching on now. He has been in the organization for a lot of years since he was signed out of Venezuela as a teenager. He also has had some injury problems that have held him back at times. Could be a late bloomer.

~Dood

[sharksrog]

Mark -- Adrianza might be a pesky leadoff hitter with that walk rate, but I can't see him taking the job from Crawford.

Rog -- I don't think Ehire will be more than an 8th-place hitter. I agree that he isn't likely to take the shortstop job away from Crawford.

Mark -- Could be a valuable utility player though. And if he's better defensively than Crawford, I really can't wait to see him.

Rog -- I'm not sure he's better than Brandon, but at one time he was ranked higher by some. Ehire's hitting better from the right side helps him as a complement to Brandon, but he would be more valuable to the Giants if Brandon's top ability were as a hitter and he needed a defensive replacement.

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[sharksrog]

Should he make it as a starter, I see Ehire as a #8 hitter. I think he is capable of moving Gary Brown up to #7. By the way, sorry to make all the Brown jokes. I really do hope he makes it. The Giants could really use him, and I suspect he'd be a very exciting player to watch.

The Giants seem to have greatly helped Brandon Belt with his hitting. Wouldn't it be nice if they could make a similar breakthrough with Gary? The Giants would really get a boost if some of these young guys can make it. It is the young guys who help keep the salary budget manageable.