sfgdood
Long time member 
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Jul 30, 2013 22:41:19 GMT -5
Andrew Baggerly on today's pregame show observed that he didn't think Lincecum would be dealt before the deadline tomorrow. He says the team still owes Tim 8 more million for the two months remaining in the season so most teams wont want to take that on. He does think maybe more teams could become interested in August, particularly if Tim continues to pitch well.
The two names Baggerly expects to be on the watch list tomorrow are Hunter Pence and Javier Lopez, although he mentioned that one team wanting a LOOGY made a play for Lopez and was scared off by the Giants' asking price. I like that...don't sell out cheaply.
~Dood
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Post by rxmeister on Jul 31, 2013 7:40:20 GMT -5
Hunter Pence supposedly told Sabean that he loves it in SF and doesn't want to be traded, and he wants to re-sign with the Giants after the season. He even said that if Sabean does decide to trade him, he'd still want to come back next year. However that's always a risk, because the Giants might trade him somewhere where he finds he's really happy too. As for Lincecum, I agree with Baggs that he doesn't get moved. If the Giants were committed to moving him they would eat part of that eight million, but I don't think the Giants want to dump Timmy in a deadline deal after all they've meant to each other. Lopez is a different matter though. He's 36, a free agent, and is pitching as well as he's ever going to pitch. Sabean needs to do his job and get some young talent for him.
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Post by sharksrog on Jul 31, 2013 12:16:49 GMT -5
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Post by sharksrog on Jul 31, 2013 12:18:02 GMT -5
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Post by rxmeister on Jul 31, 2013 12:34:56 GMT -5
I would trade Pence to a team that just wants him as a rental, get the best package I can, and attempt to re-sign him after the season. Since he's a veteran in his walk year, the team that requires him is not allowed to extend him a qualifying offer so the Giants wouldn't be penalized a draft choice.
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Post by sharksrog on Jul 31, 2013 14:51:36 GMT -5
Norris is going to the Orioles for two prospects. The one who has been announced, L.J. Hoes, has no power and thus is unusual for a corner outfield prospect, but he doesn't strike out much and does get on base.
Not sure what the Giants might have offerred, but it looks as if they took Randy's advice and didn't offer much.
I think the Giants' strategy is often to offer low, then swoop in at the last minute if the price drops from unrealistic to realistic. That's usually a pretty good strategy, and the Giants aren't in a position where they truly NEED to make a deal.
Apparently Javier Lopez is all but gone -- but other that it WON'T be the Indians' pitcher Salazer, I have no idea what the Giants will receive.
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Post by sharksrog on Jul 31, 2013 14:57:53 GMT -5
Now the word is that the Giants WON'T be trading Javier Lopez, as no one has met their asking price. Three minutes to the deadline, so we'll know soon.
I still expect SOMETHING to happen, but that isn't the word as the deadline approaches.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Jul 31, 2013 16:31:04 GMT -5
I still expect SOMETHING to happen, but that isn't the word as the deadline approaches.
Dood - 90 minutes past the deadline...looks like nothing happened.
~Dood
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Post by rxmeister on Jul 31, 2013 16:38:00 GMT -5
Nope, they stood pat. Buster Olney made a good point about them though. As a high payroll team looking to be back in contention next year, being in last place will allow them first crack at making and blocking deals on the waiver wire. Hopefully Sabean will do this wisely and not just sit there like a jackass like he did today.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Jul 31, 2013 17:41:38 GMT -5
That's a ridiculous comment, Rx. Just because a deal was not made doesn't mean he did nothing. You sound like one of those yahoos who would prefer a bad deal to be made just because it's the trade deadline than to refuse all offers because they are ridiculously lowball. This was happening all over and really very few deals were actually made today. I think this is part of the fallout of adding the extra wild card spots. Fewer teams consider themselves to be sellers this early.
~Dood
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Post by rxmeister on Jul 31, 2013 20:14:21 GMT -5
Dood, what would be a bad deal here? All three players being discussed here were free agents who the Giants could've re-signed anyway after the season. A smart GM of a team thats out of it would have tried to get some prospects to re-build the team for upcoming seasons. Why is he holding on to 36 year old LOOGY Javier Lopez and not getting some kind of prospect for him? Even a mid level prospect would have been worth Lopez. Sign him back after the season if he wants to keep him, because few overpay relief pitchers like Sabean does. Is it important for Bochy to have this one batter "weapon" in September when they're 15 games out?
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Post by sharksrog on Aug 1, 2013 15:06:04 GMT -5
Mark -- Hopefully Sabean will do this wisely and not just sit there like a jackass like he did today. Rog -- I was hoping for one or more deals today, but I certainly don't see Sabean as a jackass because none materialized. It appears the Giants have interest in bringing back all three potential free agents. They almost certainly will exercise their option on Ryan Vogelsong and almost certainly won't with Barry Zito. If they got big offers, they were willing to jeopardize bringing the guys back, but they needed to be a bit blown away -- especially in the cases of Lincecum and Pence, where they will almost certainly make qualifying offers and either re-sign the player or receive draft choice compensation. As it stands, strongly expect Lopez to return. A good chance of Pence's return. Lincecum seems more of a coin flip, with the chances increased by his not having been traded. The question, not surprisingly, will be how much they want each other after he becomes a free agent (or before he even reaches that state). Sure, the three potential free agents could have been traded and then re-signed. But the odds seem to go down. A thought after last night's game: Gaudin looks pretty solid in the rotation. Along with Bumgarner, Cain and Vogelsong, the Giants look set with four starters for next season. If they come to terms with Lincecum, they set without having to make changes. If they can also afford Pence, the only hole they have will be -- once again -- left field. Mark mentioned the good position the Giants now "enjoy" regarding waiver claims. It isn't impossible they will pick up an outfielder that way, as they did in 2010 with Cody Ross. Hey, Roger Kieschnick played very well last night, although I don't expect him to be the answer. The way the Giants are treating Brandon Belt could indicate a willingness to trade him. That would almost certainly open up another hole, as I think it unlikely that Pill is the remedy. More likely a need to call in the morning. Giants looked GOOD last night -- like a different team. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1935&page=1#13347#ixzz2akUVjaBK |
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Post by sharksrog on Aug 1, 2013 15:08:52 GMT -5
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Aug 1, 2013 15:26:38 GMT -5
Randy -- You sound like one of those yahoos who would prefer a bad deal to be made just because it's the trade deadline than to refuse all offers because they are ridiculously lowball.
Rog -- Mark's comment seemed to me to be ill-stated, but I can say with certainty that he didn't want the Giants to make a bad deal just to say they made one.
Give the man some credit. He deserves it.
Dood - "ill-stated" is a very kind assessment for someone who called our GM, who authored two championship teams, to be a jackass for not making a deadline day deal. It was almost as if he believes it is not still possible to trade players this month. If you don't care what you get back--which it didnt seem like he did--trades would be pretty easy in August...and still possibly sign the player back after the season.
~Dood
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Post by sharksrog on Aug 1, 2013 15:50:09 GMT -5
Dood - "ill-stated" is a very kind assessment for someone who called our GM, who authored two championship teams, to be a jackass for not making a deadline day deal. Rog -- I agree that Mark was wrong about that, and he could have stated it more eloquently, but cut the man some slack. Randy -- It was almost as if he believes it is not still possible to trade players this month. Rog -- He doesn't believe that, and it doesn't seem be almost that way, either. Randy -- If you don't care what you get back--which it didnt seem like he did-- Rog -- He did care what he got back. You realize that, right? Randy -- trades would be pretty easy in August... Rog -- Not really, Randy. Players have to clear waivers, and they're revocable only one time. If someone puts in a claim before you, you're not going to be able to trade for that player. Randy -- and still possibly sign the player back after the season. Rog -- I agree with you here, but it is also a fact that on average, the odds get reduced when a player is traded. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1935&page=1#13370#ixzz2akiJ8M3J |
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Post by rxmeister on Aug 1, 2013 22:48:05 GMT -5
Yeah, Randy, I meant trade everybody and get nothing in return. Pittsburgh wanted Hunter Pence and they're a team that couldn't re-sign him in a million years. You could have gotten a decent haul for Pence and then brought him back as a free agent. For God's sake he even told them he would be open to coming back if they traded him! I'm sure the Pirates would have given them something. And as I said before, Lopez is a valuable asset for a contending team to have. Unless other GM's had their heads as far up their asses as you seem to think Brandon Belt does, they have seen what a valuable weapon a LOOGY like Lopez is in the post season of 2010 and 2012. To those teams he was worth a mid level prospect AT LEAST, but to the Giants he was a 36 year old soon to be FA who would be pitching in meaningless games. Everyone was reporting that Sabean was asking for the moon to whoever called him. He didn't need to ask for that much considering the circumstances. Did you see what the Pirate GM said? He said "I was willing to make a stupid trade to help this team this year but I refused to make an insane one!" Sabean failed here, pure and simple. But what do I expect from someone who thinks Brett Pill is better than Brandon Belt?
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Aug 2, 2013 1:50:56 GMT -5
Yeah, Randy, I meant trade everybody and get nothing in return.
Dood - that's not what I said, but whatever
Pittsburgh wanted Hunter Pence and they're a team that couldn't re-sign him in a million years.
Dood - you don't know this, but it sure sounds good right? They reportedly wanted Brian Wilson too but were too cheap to pony up a minor league offer. The Pirate GM talks a big game but rarely follows through on his statements.
You could have gotten a decent haul for Pence and then brought him back as a free agent. For God's sake he even told them he would be open to coming back if they traded him! I'm sure the Pirates would have given them something.
Dood - just for kicks...what do you call a decent haul? And how do you KNOW the Giants were offered a decent haul for Pence? As far as being able to bring Pence back, you don't know this either. Players have often been known to change their minds. I seem to recall Pence being quite fond of Philly before he was traded to the Giants. Maybe he'll re-sign there since the park is so much more hitter friendly.
And as I said before, Lopez is a valuable asset for a contending team to have. Unless other GM's had their heads as far up their asses as you seem to think Brandon Belt does, they have seen what a valuable weapon a LOOGY like Lopez is in the post season of 2010 and 2012. To those teams he was worth a mid level prospect AT LEAST,
Dood - are you going on what was rumored or do you have a mole in Sabean's office?...do tell
but to the Giants he was a 36 year old soon to be FA who would be pitching in meaningless games.
Dood - clearly you have given up, even knowing the legend of Coogan's Bluff in '51. But it's apparent the Giants are not willing to say yet that the games are meaningless quite yet. I'm not saying the Giants shouldnt have accepted a good offer...just saying they clearly were fielding offers which you have no clue about the particulars, and they decided not to bite. I have no problem with that. I don't want our GM getting the reputation of being a guy that can be had at the deadline.
Everyone was reporting that Sabean was asking for the moon to whoever called him.
Dood - again...just rumors...no facts.
He didn't need to ask for that much considering the circumstances. Did you see what the Pirate GM said? He said "I was willing to make a stupid trade to help this team this year but I refused to make an insane one!"
Dood - I also saw that "everyone" was saying that the Pirates were gunshy because they had been burned on deadline day trades in the past and were afraid of it happening again. In fact the Giants have raided the Pirates often in the past...maybe they were tying for some payback.
Sabean failed here, pure and simple.
Dood - you don't know that. You don't know what kind of scraps were offered. Or are you saying that you actually DO prefer a bad trade to no trade at all?
But what do I expect from someone who thinks Brett Pill is better than Brandon Belt?
Dood - I couldn't answer that because it's not something I said.
~Dood
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Post by rxmeister on Aug 2, 2013 6:55:24 GMT -5
Ok, Dood, I see your argument here and accept it. Your argument is basically that all these rumors in the media are false, and the media basically is making stuff up when it says Team A is interested in a certain player. That's fine, but I'll remember that next time you reference a story by someone like Baggs or Schulman. Oh wait, just noticed something. This thread was started by YOU, based on comments Baggs made on the pre game show!
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Post by sharksrog on Aug 2, 2013 8:54:48 GMT -5
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Post by sharksrog on Aug 2, 2013 9:06:27 GMT -5
Mark -- Did you see what the Pirate GM said? He said "I was willing to make a stupid trade to help this team this year but I refused to make an insane one!" Sabean failed here, pure and simple. Rog -- I hadn't seen that quote, and I had forgotten I'd seen the one from Hunter that he would be open to returning even if he were traded. I thought you were overstating the case (and probably you did, language-wise), but you make a very good point here. One shocking stat about Lopez: He's been with the Giants right at three years now, and he's given up just ONE home run during that time. ONE! Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1935&page=1#ixzz2aotpZvID |
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Post by sharksrog on Aug 2, 2013 9:09:14 GMT -5
Mark -- Pittsburgh wanted Hunter Pence and they're a team that couldn't re-sign him in a million years. Dood - you don't know this, but it sure sounds good right? Rog -- Very good point, Randy. Randy -- They reportedly wanted Brian Wilson too but were too cheap to pony up a minor league offer. The Pirate GM talks a big game but rarely follows through on his statements. Rog -- On the other hand, if they were too cheap to pony up a minor league offer for Wilson, doesn't that tend to suggest Mark may be right that they wouldn't put up the big bucks it will take to re-sign Pence? Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1935&page=1#ixzz2aowiC8FQ |
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Post by sharksrog on Aug 2, 2013 9:17:03 GMT -5
Mark -- Everyone was reporting that Sabean was asking for the moon to whoever called him. Dood - again...just rumors...no facts. Rog -- Mark is likely right here though. One of the reasons so many deals are often made RIGHT at the deadline is that the sellers DO ask for the moon -- but usually they settle merely for high altitude. In Brian's case, it appears he hung tough. ' The Giants can get nice draft pick compensation if they are unable to re-sign Lincecum and/or Pence. Barring serious injury, they would be foolish not to make a qualifying offer to each. Pence might have returned, but I would be surprised if Tim would have. As for Lopez, they may have felt that by trading him, they would significantly reduce their chances of re-signing him. The Pirates GM's comments support Mark's point of view here. But we weren't there, so none of us really knows for sure what went on or what the Giants' thinking truly was. Again, I think we need to ask the question: WHY would Brian Sabean be stupid? He almost certainly saw things differently than we and/or been privvy to information we're not privvy to. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1935&page=1#ixzz2aoxCdrkI |
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Post by sharksrog on Aug 2, 2013 9:19:12 GMT -5
Mark -- You could have gotten a decent haul for Pence and then brought him back as a free agent. For God's sake he even told them he would be open to coming back if they traded him! I'm sure the Pirates would have given them something. Dood - just for kicks...what do you call a decent haul? And how do you KNOW the Giants were offered a decent haul for Pence? As far as being able to bring Pence back, you don't know this either. Players have often been known to change their minds. I seem to recall Pence being quite fond of Philly before he was traded to the Giants. Maybe he'll re-sign there since the park is so much more hitter friendly. Rog -- Now THIS is the type of salient point you have so often given us before. You've made very good points of late. They seem less emotional and more analytical. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1935&page=1#ixzz2aozBbAOS |
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Aug 2, 2013 11:53:06 GMT -5
Ok, Dood, I see your argument here and accept it. Your argument is basically that all these rumors in the media are false, and the media basically is making stuff up when it says Team A is interested in a certain player. That's fine, but I'll remember that next time you reference a story by someone like Baggs or Schulman. Oh wait, just noticed something. This thread was started by YOU, based on comments Baggs made on the pre game show!
Dood - first, my point isnt that media reports are false...my point is we have no way of knowing whether what the media was told was accurate. It could very easily have been slanted or exaggerated to fit the teller's perspective. I mean what do you expect the Pirates to say? "Yeah we tried to fleece them by making a lowball offer but they weren't buying it"...that kind of honesty just isnt gonna happen. And in fact, in most cases, deals that ARE made vary to some degree from even the most accurate reports.
As for the second part of your paragraph...the key difference here is you presented the media reports as if they were incontraverted fact, then concluding that because of these "facts" that Sabean must have failed. I right away tell that this is Bagg's take. The accuracy of either the report or the conclusions is completely up to any one of the readers.
~Dood
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Post by dk on Aug 2, 2013 13:14:34 GMT -5
Ok, Dood, I see your argument here and accept it. Your argument is basically that all these rumors in the media are false, and the media basically is making stuff up when it says Team A is interested in a certain player. dk.. you should have been in NY in the '30's when Art Jorgens was the Yanks' 3rd string catcher...Jimmy Powers (NY Daily News) had him rumored to be traded to a different team for 2 or 3 regulars...Art was with the Yanks for 11 seasons and played in 307 games with only 738 at bats...lots of potential, though...even hit 4 homers...built like Belt only much shorter.... |
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