You have to wonder...

[klaiggeb]

You have to wonder if Tim reads the stuff coming out of SF..

You have to wonder if the fact that, for the first time I've seen, even the SF writers are saying he'll never be the same, what they wrote, stung, and motivated him...

You have to wonder what took him so long to figure out what so many have been saying: "without that 95 mph heater, he has to re invent himself."

You have to wonder if Tim, himself was having self doubts. I know I would have.

You have to wonder, this being the 8 consecutive decent or better start IF he's truely re invented himself; pitching now, instead of just throwing. Last night was the first time I really saw him "pitch."

You have to wonder what these last 2 outtings have done to the thinking of the Giant's brass; keep him, or let him walk?

You have to wonder if, Padres or not, the Giants have re found themselves, and if this isn't the start of really good things to come.

You have to wonder WHERE last night's team has been for the last month! These last 2 nights IS the Giant team I expected all year long; Pitching, hitting, defense.

You have to wonder if it's not too late to make a run for the west.

You have to wonder if the "Best Team Money Can Buy" are just hot right now, or if they'll cool off, and come back down to earth.

You have to wonder, is it possible...

boly

[sfgdood]

I believe Tim does read the Bay Area scribes, and does care, even though he would deny it.

I believe it did motivate him somewhat but more than anything he just, like many pitchers, had to take some lumps while adjusting to having less fastball...and had to fine tune his control. When you have the 95+ heater, you don't have to be as pinpoint with your control.

Personally I don't think ever doubted himself...he proved to the media last night that he still has plenty of stuff to dominate. I never doubted it, and I believe Tim never did either.

I think it's just a matter of being able to remain consistent with the control. It remains to be seen if he will but the more he keeps working on it, the more consistent he will be.

Giants brass will look at what happens the rest of the season to decide how reliable they believe Timmy will be going forward. What last night does is re-affirm Timmy's toughness and determination.

Even in the Mets series you could see signs the offense was ready to bust out. They were putting lots of guys on base and in scoring position but just lacked that final hit. Guys like Pablo, Crawford, Scutaro, Pence and Belt are all having better ABs and pitching in now. If they remain healthy, I have no doubt they can stay in this race and even have a chance to win. There's a whole 2 and a half months to go.

As I said in another post, it takes adjustment when you have guys going down with injuries. Guys have to adjust to different roles, injured players take time to adjust when they return, getting their rythmn back. Young players adjust to adjustments the league makes to them. But things eventually seem to come together for good teams. Sometimes it's too late but sometimes not.

The Dodgers? If they pitch, they can be scary and they are pitching right now...we shall see if it continues.

Anything's possible with this much time left. Remember '51

~Dood

[Islandboagie]

You have to wonder, this being the 8 consecutive decent or better start IF he's truely re invented himself; pitching now, instead of just throwing. Last night was the first time I really saw him "pitch."

Boagie- I don't see any difference between Tim now and Tim in April other than his line in the box score. Last night he walked 4 and hit 1..if we slapped 3 or 4 runs in his line the Lincecum haters would be calling for his head today. What we've seen recently and especially last night is him avoiding the big inning which has killed him in the last year+. He hasn't changed his mechanics (which you said would be his only way to succeed from here on out.) So I do wonder what made the difference, or as Rog would say..maybe he's just been lucky.

[allenreed]

Why is iit that if you expect a decent performance out of a player making $22 million, you "hate" him?

[Islandboagie]

That's a good question Allen. Last year at this time there were a number of trade suggestions for Lincecum. Where are the trade ideas for Cain this year?

Tim has been accused of not taking his conditioning and workouts seriously, has Matt ever been accused of this?

Has the media exposed Matt's rental history to the public or constantly pestered Matt's father? No.

There's a part of the media that loves to pick apart Tim in the paper and on the radio and because of that some of the fans have adopted a dislike for Lincecum too. I know you live in NY so maybe you don't listen KNBR, but if you did you'd realize there's a rather significant fan base that calls in and loves to bash Tim.

Does anyone who listens to KNBR disagree with my take on this?

[allenreed]

I actually live in California, about 50 miles nrtheast of SF. I have listened to KNBR, though I don't much anymore.
I would imagine the reason there isn't so much trade talk with Cain is that his contract doesn't expire soon, as Tim's does.
Wasn't it Tim himself who said he doesn't like to do his running, and that he eats pretty much whatever he wants?
Rental history? Is this where Tim was held accountable for trashing an apartment that he had rented? Has Cain ever been busted for drugs? Tim has.
Tim has fallen from CY Young winner (twice), to marginal pitcher. He signed a huge contract then didn't produce. I can see where people would question that. Look what Zito's been through.
I have a problem with the philosophy that if you hold someone accountable, you hate them or are trashing them. I get that alot with Pablo. I don't hate Pablo. I just wish he would take his seven figure job seriously enough to get himself in shape and perform to his potential. He doesn't, and he should be held accountable for that.
Tim (by his own admission) doesn't work as hard as he could on conditioning, doesn't maintain focus, and doesn't bother to learn basic fundamentals like backing up bases, holding runners on, etc. At $22 million per annum, why not? Others do it for alot less. You're getting paid big dollars, why can't you give your best effort?

[sfgdood]

Sometimes, Allen, it seems like you get very personal with Pablo, for whatever reason. That, IMO, goes beyond just holding accountable. I mean let's look at it logically...most people would objectively look at the production the Giants received from Pablo prior to this season and would say the Giants have received well above the value they paid to Pablo in return...and then some. This season Pablo finally is making the kind of cash you would expect an All Star talent level to make. He started out earning it in spades...after his foot injury, not so much. But as I mentioned earlier, he has picked it up big time this last week. There are lots of games to go till the end of the season...let's see where he ends up at the end before we talk "accountability"...and there are 2 more years on the contract as well.

~Dood

[allenreed]

I think I get very frustrated with Pablo, maybe even mad at him, because I know he has so much ability and because he won't get his weight down, he's not only wasting a good bit of it, but significantly shortening the time he will be able to make use of it.
Not that it's even remotely the same, but I played slo-pitch for about 25 years. Not to brag, but I was a pretty good hitter, but couldn't do much else. For much of that time I was overweight. One year, I decided I was going to train hard and I got rid of the weight. I was amazed at how much better I played, and how much more I could do in regards to defense and baserunning. Unfortunately, I got lazy and developed a bit of a beer drinking problem, and gained most of the weight back. One of my biggest regrets.
Pablo is a very good hitter, and has quick reactions at third. But his range is limited, and his baserunning is circumspect at best. He misses some balls at third that he could get, is thrown out at first on plays he could beat, and often has to be held on plays where he could take an extra base if he were fit. If he were in shape, he could be a HOF quality player.
Maybe I feel more strongly about it, because I've been where he is, though certainly not at anything close to a professional level. But that's only part of it. The Giants are paying Pablo good money. Certainly exponentially more than he could make doing anything else. Are they out of line to expect Pablo to take his conditioning as seriously as other players do?
Look, Pablo's never going to be as fit as Hunter Pence, no matter what he does, but shouldn't he at least try?

[sharksrog]

Randy -- Personally I don't think ever doubted himself...he proved to the media last night that he still has plenty of stuff to dominate. I never doubted it, and I believe Tim never did either.

Rog -- I think it depends on your definition of doubting oneself. No question Tim didn't know for a long time how to figure out what had gone wrong. It was rather inexplicable that one of the game's best pitchers had his ERA suddenly double with almost no warning.

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[sharksrog]

Randy -- What last night does is re-affirm Timmy's toughness and determination.

Rog -- What it most reaffirmed to me is that despite not getting particularly different results, Tim has indeed been showing signs of improvement.

In one way -- walks -- last night's game was actually the worst Tim has had in a while.


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[sharksrog]

Boagie- I don't see any difference between Tim now and Tim in April other than his line in the box score. Last night he walked 4 and hit 1..if we slapped 3 or 4 runs in his line the Lincecum haters would be calling for his head today. What we've seen recently and especially last night is him avoiding the big inning which has killed him in the last year+. He hasn't changed his mechanics (which you said would be his only way to succeed from here on out.) So I do wonder what made the difference, or as Rog would say..maybe he's just been lucky.

Rog -- Tim did pitch well in April (3.64 ERA). But here are some things he's doing now that he wasn't doing then:

. In April he walked 17 batters in 30 innings. In June and July, he's walked 17 batters in 51 innings. Take away intentional passes, and it's 17 walks in 30 innings in April compared to 15 walks in 51 innings in June and July.

Tim's walk rate in April was lousy. In June and July, it has been good.

. In April, he gave up 3 homers in 30 innings. In June and July, he's given up 3 homers in 51 innings. Averagish in April; excellent in June and July.

. In April, he had 59 swinging strikes in 30 innings. In June and July, he has 115 swinging strikes in 51 innings. Very good in April; excellent in June and July.

. In April, he threw 59% strikes. In June and July, he has thrown 64% strikes. Lousy in April; good in June and July.

. In April, he had 32 strikeouts in 30 innings. In June and July, he has 57 whiffs in 51 frames. Boith time frames are excellent, but June and July are even better than April.

. In April, Tim had one double play. In June and July, he has 5. Very poor in April; very good in June and July.

. He is now throwing his curve ball more and his fastball less than in April. Tim has more variety in his pitches now.

You are right that Tim has been good in both April (3.64) and June/July (3.18) and that May (6.43) has been his only bad month. In each of his 8 starts between June and July, Tim has been very good to excellent over the first five innings. In one of his April starts, he yielded 6 earned runs in his first 5 innings, and in another he gave up four and didn't make it into the 5th.

As we discussed earlier in the week, the positive signs were there. It also gets intriguing in that aside from Tim's final two starts in September and his month of May this season (and including last postseason), his ERA has been 3.08 since the beginning of the 2nd half of the 2012 season.

If we included every inning Tim has pitched since the All-Star break in 2012, his ERA stands at 3.95. That's nowhere near Cy Young Tim, but it is an above-average starter.

In other words, Tim was awful in the first half of 2012 and since then has been an above-average starting pitcher. Despite all his troubles, since last year's All-Star game, Tim has been better than most of the pitchers we have been discussing replacing him with.

Tim is being paid as one of the top pitchers in the game, and he clearly hasn't been that. But based on how he HAS pitched since last year's break, he's been overpaid by no more than 50%. Clearly that's not good, but it also isn't a total disaster.

It's going to be tough justifying re-signing Tim for the money he is likely to command. But the idea of replacing him because he's a #5 starter is ridiculous.

The first half of 2012, yes. Since then, no way.

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[sharksrog]

Allen -- Tim has fallen from CY Young winner (twice), to marginal pitcher.

Even if we take 2012 and 2013 as a whole, that hasn't really been true. If we look since last year's All-Star game, clearly it isn't.

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[Islandboagie]

I actually live in California, about 50 miles nrtheast of SF. I have listened to KNBR, though I don't much anymore.
I would imagine the reason there isn't so much trade talk with Cain is that his contract doesn't expire soon, as Tim's does.
Wasn't it Tim himself who said he doesn't like to do his running, and that he eats pretty much whatever he wants?
Rental history? Is this where Tim was held accountable for trashing an apartment that he had rented? Has Cain ever been busted for drugs? Tim has.
Tim has fallen from CY Young winner (twice), to marginal pitcher. He signed a huge contract then didn't produce. I can see where people would question that. Look what Zito's been through.
I have a problem with the philosophy that if you hold someone accountable, you hate them or are trashing them. I get that alot with Pablo. I don't hate Pablo. I just wish he would take his seven figure job seriously enough to get himself in shape and perform to his potential. He doesn't, and he should be held accountable for that.


Boagie- Did you used to live in NY? I thought one of our posters lived in NY, I swore it was you. Maybe I'm just losing my mind.

I agree with your opinion on players being held accountable. But with Tim I think the media has gone a little overboard with the attacks and the constant mention of trying to unload him. Why?

I know you say I'm always sentimental about the 2010 team and you're right. But I think I'm justified by feeling this way. Tim's dad was right, without Tim the Giants don't have a World Series Championship. This gives Tim a free pass for the rest of his career. In 2012 when we were getting murdered by the Reds in the NLDS they brought Timmy in during the second game I believe and he looked like the old Tim. At that moment I thought "hold the phone, we still have a chance here." Well we know what happened after that. But again, in my opinion we don't have a chance without Tim. Why do fans and the media want that gone? Do they not want to win in the post-season anymore? Those are the questions that pop into my head when I hear the criticisms of Lincecum.

[klaiggeb]

You have to wonder, this being the 8 consecutive decent or better start IF he's truely re invented himself; pitching now, instead of just throwing. Last night was the first time I really saw him "pitch."

Boagie- I don't see any difference between Tim now and Tim in April other than his line in the box score. Last night he walked 4 and hit 1..if we slapped 3 or 4 runs in his line the Lincecum haters would be calling for his head today. What we've seen recently and especially last night is him avoiding the big inning which has killed him in the last year+. He hasn't changed his mechanics (which you said would be his only way to succeed from here on out.) So I do wonder what made the difference, or as Rog would say..maybe he's just been lucky.

---boly says---

Actually, Boagie, beginning with that start against the Mets I DID see a difference; one I've been waiting for.

Two things I noticed:

1-He's now pitching backwards, using off speed stuff to set up the fastball.

2-Much MUCH more use of his devastating, 12-6 curve ball. For me, more than anything, that was the difference in the no hitter.


For some reason, he virtually stopped using it a few years back, but these last 2 starts he's shown how good it can be.


My belief that he HAS re invented himself was solidified by an article I read today about him the Mercury News.

He SAID he's now actually studying hitters A LOT before games, and he SAID he's realized that he HAS to change from what he was, into what he now is.

THAT showed me a lot.

Way to go, Tim! I've now real hope for you and the Giants to WANT to re sign you... at a reasonable rate.

boly

[allenreed]

Boagie- Did you used to live in NY? I thought one of our posters lived in NY, I swore it was you. Maybe I'm just losing my mind.

Allen- I believe Mark (Rx meister) lives in NY, and the guy that used to fly off the rails when the Giants lost did as well. Man, I can't remember his name. I went to a couple of games with him too. Helluva nice guy in person. He was a daytrader. Jewish guy.

I agree with your opinion on players being held accountable. But with Tim I think the media has gone a little overboard with the attacks and the constant mention of trying to unload him. Why?

Allen- What do you think Tim will want next year? I'm thinking he won't want to take much of a cut from his present $22 million salary (if any). His last start not withstanding, do you really see him as worth that? Is it realistic that the Giants will (or should) want to pay Tim what he will demand (and likely get elsewhere) next year? Why not unload him now and try to get something for him if you can, rather than just let him walk at the end of the season. Tim is at best our third starter right now, and $22 million isn't third starter money.

I know you say I'm always sentimental about the 2010 team and you're right. But I think I'm justified by feeling this way. Tim's dad was right, without Tim the Giants don't have a World Series Championship. This gives Tim a free pass for the rest of his career. In 2012 when we were getting murdered by the Reds in the NLDS they brought Timmy in during the second game I believe and he looked like the old Tim. At that moment I thought "hold the phone, we still have a chance here." Well we know what happened after that. But again, in my opinion we don't have a chance without Tim. Why do fans and the media want that gone? Do they not want to win in the post-season anymore? Those are the questions that pop into my head when I hear the criticisms of Lincecum.

Allen- Hey, you feel how you feel. No justification necessary. I like Tim, and I appreciate the role he played in both World Series runs, but you just can't keep paying that kind of money for those results. It's a business.

[Islandboagie]

I understand the business side of it. Its an entertainment business, and Tim, Matt, Pablo and Buster are the ones who are primarily responsible for the amount of sellout crowds we've seen since 2010. Also the amount of viewers who tune into the games every night. That's the business standpoint.

The fan standpoint should be we JUST won the World Series for the 2nd time in 3 years after a a 56 year period of failure (24 years for me) and Tim was a BIG part of both..does that make him worth it? You're damn right it does.

Twice now I've seen them wheel out McCovey, Marichal and a number of other old farts out onto the field To get their greedy little paws on a World Series ring. Why are they out there? Did These old farts that you guys adore win a World Series? No..they didn't. I don't mean any disrespect to the ex Giant players but let's face it..Timmy, Matt and Buster have done more for San Francisco baseball than all of the previous Giants combined. Afterall what's the primary goal for all teams during spring training? To win it all. Before 2010 no S.F. Giants team was able to do that. What was the big change? Tim F***ing Lincecum! And, yes, he's already worth it.

[allenreed]

I agree with you about the past players and the rings. As far as the rest, it's a business and you have to constantly be evolving and putting the best team you can out there. Tim has been paid for not producing this season and last regular season. It's not a lifelong debt.
I disagree with you saying that those particular people are responsible for all the sellout crowds. If you, Rog, and I were playing, the place would sell out if we were winning. Do you think if we got rid of Tim, brought in Bud Norris, and the Giants went to the series, that somehow we wouldn't sell out?

[Islandboagie]

Do you think if we got rid of Tim, brought in Bud Norris, and the Giants went to the series, that somehow we wouldn't sell out?

Its almost a guarantee that we don't get to the series or win it in 2010 if we had Norris instead of Lincecum. 2012 we would perhaps have a better regular season record but do we get through the post season without Tim as a bullpen weapon? I don't know what the future holds for both pitchers, but what I do know is when Lincecum is at his best he's still among the best in the game as we saw in his last start and other recent starts. Norris is a good pitcher too, but does he dominate the best hitting teams in the post season like Lincecum has? I don't think he does.

If the money is not a consideration, I take Lincecum without a doubt. If Money is a consideration what we've learned is when Tim is making 20+ mil a year we still can win a World Series. Tim's contract is not sucking the team dry.

If I'm the Giants I give him the same contract he was offered before. 5 years at 100 mil. Tim's age, history, ability and the price of contracts we've seen today make that a reasonable contract.

[sharksrog]

Boagie -- But with Tim I think the media has gone a little overboard with the attacks and the constant mention of trying to unload him. Why?

Rog -- I think the Bay Area media at least has been quite fair with Tim. And part of the reason for that may be that for a fallen hero, he has been exceptionally candid about his confusion with how to solve his new problems.

With the exception of the month of May of this season though, he has actually been a pretty good pitcher the past year. Surprising, I know, but quite true if one looks it up.

There is no point in bringing the $22 million into the conversation. There is no way Tim has come CLOSE to being worth that. But you know what? Since last year's All-Star game, Tim has been as good as any other fulltime Giants starter.

Zito just isn't very good, even though he fooled a lot of people late last season and early this one. Cain and Vogelsong have had their struggles. Only Mad Bum clearly stands above Tim.

I guess one could say that we on THIS board haven't been particularly fair to him. Perhaps no the national media. But I think the local media has to some extent suffered right along with Tim.


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[sharksrog]

Sorry, the local media HAVE suffered along with Tim.

[sharksrog]

Boly -- For some reason, he virtually stopped using it a few years back, but these last 2 starts he's shown how good it can be.

Rog -- Tim's curve ball was considered by many scouts to be the best pitch in the 2006 draft. When I saw him pitch for San Jose, he used only his fastball and that waterfall curve.

But he added his devastating change up in 2007 and felt the curve ball developed a hump late in the season. In 2008 he began using his highly effective slider, and his use of the curve ball began to drop.

He has been using the curve ball as a weapon for at least the past month. He threw one in the no-hitter that was about as good a curve as can be thrown.


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[sharksrog]

Boagie -- Timmy, Matt and Buster have done more for San Francisco baseball than all of the previous Giants combined.

Rog -- I know that with two rings in three years it seems that way now. But even if the Giants go on to become a dynasty over the next few seasons, 100 years from now the name Willie Mays will mean a lot more to baseball fans than the Giants of the 2010's.

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[sharksrog]

There IS one way these Giants could mean more to history than Willie Mays does. If they go on to more or less take over the decade, and there isn't another major league dynasty for 100 years or so, the Giants could mean more to history than does Willie Mays.

But given that Willie Mays is likely the greatest player the Baby Boom Generation has ever seen, it would take a lot to overtake him.

[sharksrog]

When I first saw Tim pitch, I thought he would become the best pitcher in SF history. Unless he returns to his Cy Young form, I was wrong.

Juan Marichal was a great pitcher, probably even better than I and most observers give him credit for. As the most feared hitter in baseball for a few years, Willie McCovey too was a great player. Gaylord Perry and Orlando Cepeda performed much of their Hall of Fame careers outside San Francisco.

The San Francisco Giants have had a lot of great players over the years. But at this point in time, Juan Marichal, Willie McCovey and especially the great Willie Mays stand above.

It's too bad those guys didn't win a championship together, but they did come within bad luck on a Willie McCovey rocket of doing so. And they were highly competitive almost every season for a decade.

[allenreed]

Jul 16, 2013 10:49:25 GMT -5 Islandboagie said:

Do you think if we got rid of Tim, brought in Bud Norris, and the Giants went to the series, that somehow we wouldn't sell out?

Its almost a guarantee that we don't get to the series or win it in 2010 if we had Norris instead of Lincecum. 2012 we would perhaps have a better regular season record but do we get through the post season without Tim as a bullpen weapon?

Allen- I wasn't speaking of 2010 or 2012. I was speaking of next year, or anytime in the future. My point is, the Giants selling out does not depend on the presence of Tim Lincecum, or any one player. As long as the Giants win, they'll sell out.


I don't know what the future holds for both pitchers, but what I do know is when Lincecum is at his best he's still among the best in the game as we saw in his last start and other recent starts. Norris is a good pitcher too, but does he dominate the best hitting teams in the post season like Lincecum has? I don't think he does.

Allen- Thing is, Lincecum has seldom been at his best over the last season and a half, and we're paying him like he is.

If the money is not a consideration, I take Lincecum without a doubt. If Money is a consideration what we've learned is when Tim is making 20+ mil a year we still can win a World Series. Tim's contract is not sucking the team dry.

If I'm the Giants I give him the same contract he was offered before. 5 years at 100 mil. Tim's age, history, ability and the price of contracts we've seen today make that a reasonable contract.

Allen- Agree to disagree.

[Islandboagie]

Rog -- I know that with two rings in three years it seems that way now. But even if the Giants go on to become a dynasty over the next few seasons, 100 years from now the name Willie Mays will mean a lot more to baseball fans than the Giants of the 2010's.

Boagie: You're speaking for your generation. You don't know what will happen 100 years from now. Babe Ruth is widely considered the biggest name baseball has ever seen. A lot of young baseball fans would recognize his name, but ALL of them would know who Derek Jeter is.

Same with kids in the Bay Area...I bet you that #28 is taken on every little league team in the Bay Area. The current team is creating quite a legacy for future S.F. fans.

What do you think is more memorable for Braves fans, Hank Aaron or them winning the Series in '95? (I believe it was '95.) Hank Aaron has his legacy, but I think more Braves fans today would pick the WS as the most memorable.

[allenreed]

How about 57, when they won the series with Aaron?

[klaiggeb]

When I first saw Tim pitch, I thought he would become the best pitcher in SF history. Unless he returns to his Cy Young form, I was wrong.

Juan Marichal was a great pitcher, probably even better than I and most observers give him credit for. As the most feared hitter in baseball for a few years, Willie McCovey too was a great player. Gaylord Perry and Orlando Cepeda performed much of their Hall of Fame careers outside San Francisco.

---boly syas---

This is one of those questions that will always be open to debate.

Me? Give me Juan in a heartbeat.

Why? He was a strike thrower, and thus, DIDN'T leave his defenders hanging out there for ever like Timmy has done with his constant strike zone difficulties.

Does the 2 Cy Youngs make him better.

Um, in a word: HECK NO!

Okay, that's two words.

Let's look at just who was around when Juan was at the top of his game, and the discussion can start and end with 1 name; Sandy Koufax.

Best pitcher of HIS day, hands down.

Now, add into that mix the likes of Gibson, Bunning(up until 1964) and Drysdale (through and including 1966), and for the earlier part of his career, Warren Sphan.

Pretty hard to beat out Koufax for a Cy Young, when, for a while they ONLY GAVE 1 Cy Young PERIOD; not one for the NL and one for the AL

Arguing who is better is like arguing who was better for the NY Giants; Hubbell or Mathewson.

Don't know about ya'all, but give me a rotation of those four Giants and I stack them up like this:

Hubbell
Marichal
Mathewson
Lincecum

Anyway you rank them at the TOP OF THEIR careers, that's a good starting 4!

boly

[Islandboagie]

Boly- Let's look at just who was around when Juan was at the top of his game, and the discussion can start and end with 1 name; Sandy Koufax.

Best pitcher of HIS day, hands down.

Now, add into that mix the likes of Gibson, Bunning(up until 1964) and Drysdale (through and including 1966), and for the earlier part of his career, Warren Sphan.

Pretty hard to beat out Koufax for a Cy Young, when, for a while they ONLY GAVE 1 Cy Young PERIOD; not one for the NL and one for the AL

Arguing who is better is like arguing who was better for the NY Giants; Hubbell or Mathewson.

Boagie- I know what you're saying here Boly..its hard to know who was best. However, haven't we established that the best way to judge a player's talent is to compare them to their peers? Like you said Koufax was better than Marichal. We can look back at Marichal's career, while its very impressive, there's no point where we can definitively say Marichal was the best. With Lincecum we can. During the '08-'09 seasons Lincecum was the best. If you figure in the '10 post season, and his solid season in '11 you could make the argument that he was the best through a 4 year period. As we know Tim struggled in 2012, but if he truly has regained that success that he saw through '08-'11 he could be considered the best pitcher of his era.

If that happens and you consider the Cy Young's and the WS rings...you'd have to say Timmy is the better pitcher.

[allenreed]

Boagie- I know what you're saying here Boly..its hard to know who was best. However, haven't we established that the best way to judge a player's talent is to compare them to their peers?

Allen- Not necessarily. It depends on the era. Pre- Jackie Robinson, blacks weren't allowed to play, so the peers weren't necessarily the best players.
Well, maybe it is the best way, but certainly not the most accurate way.

Like you said Koufax was better than Marichal. We can look back at Marichal's career, while its very impressive, there's no point where we can definitively say Marichal was the best. With Lincecum we can. During the '08-'09 seasons Lincecum was the best. If you figure in the '10 post season, and his solid season in '11 you could make the argument that he was the best through a 4 year period. As we know Tim struggled in 2012, but if he truly has regained that success that he saw through '08-'11 he could be considered the best pitcher of his era.

Allen- Might be best to wait until the era is over to make that pronouncement.

If that happens and you consider the Cy Young's and the WS rings...you'd have to say Timmy is the better pitcher

Allen- Having seen both, I'll take Marichal. He faced better hitters, was far more consistent, and did it over a longer period of time.