|
Post by sharksrog on Jul 14, 2013 2:42:41 GMT -5
Jon Heyman of CBSSports.com reports that the Astros are seeking two highly-rated prospects for Bud Norris.
I have kept going back on forth on whether I would give up Gary Brown and Joe Panik for him, but the Astros just re-signed Jose Altuve for four years, so Panik isn't likely to be on their minds.
Blackburn and Brown might get the job done, although I'm sure the Astor would like Kyle Crick.
|
|
sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
|
Post by sfgdood on Jul 14, 2013 3:33:01 GMT -5
So you now want to trade both of our top 2 prospects for a pitcher with a career 4.29 ERA?? Why not throw in our whole starting lineup, the proceeds from all ticket sales, the sky, the moon and all the stars too while you're at it?
~Dood
|
|
|
Post by Islandboagie on Jul 14, 2013 8:54:45 GMT -5
I wouldn't consider Blackburn or Brown as untouchable and if we could get a piece that we need for those two I'd say do it. However..do we really need a starting pitcher anymore?
The only guy I'd be upset with them if gave away would be Crick.
The thing that Sabean should be focused on right now is putting together a contract that both Tim and the Giants are interested in.
|
|
|
Post by sharksrog on Jul 14, 2013 12:22:58 GMT -5
Randy -- So you now want to trade both of our top 2 prospects for a pitcher with a career 4.29 ERA?? Why not throw in our whole starting lineup, the proceeds from all ticket sales, the sky, the moon and all the stars too while you're at it? Rog -- While I'm not sure I understand it, I'll try to bridge the sar-chasm. The basic question is a good one. When Bud Norris came up here nearly a month ago, I pondered whether I would trade the Giants' two top position prospects (unless Andrew Susac is in the mix) for Norris. I have been following the performance of both Gary Brown and Joe Panik on nearly a daily basis this summer. Brown was just awful to start the season, but has come on nicely. I'm still concerned about his 93 strikeouts and only 24 walks, but he has raised his average from the .180's to .244. Someone here wondered if the calling up of Juan Perez built a fire under Gary, but he had already broken out of his early-season slump -- which was a very bad one. Panik was hitting well a month ago -- and suddenly the floor caved in. From a high in the .320's, he has fallen to .248. In little more than a month, Panik went from leading Brown by over 130 batting average points to a difference of just four. So I pondered whether I would trade the pair for Norris, and my gut said no. Now, I think I would do it (although not without trepidation). I'm guessing that if the Astros are talking to the Giants, they would be interested in a pitcher and perhaps Brown. I didn't say I would trade Brown and Blackburn for Norris (so why the reaction and sarcasm?), but I would think any discussions might be in that range. Blackburn is a tough guy to evaluate. He isn't considered to have great stuff, but he has struck out 99 and walked 26. Some of his success is considered to be due to his maturity on the mound, but at age 20, he would seem to have time left to grow. The attraction with Norris is that he has two-plus years of team control left, he's a decent starting pitcher, and he would love to play in San Francisco, which could make him a good candidate to be re-signed when he becomes eligible for free agency. The question comes down to what we think the prospects will become compared to what Norris IS. If Blackburn becomes a #2 starter, as some think he may, he alone will be better than Norris. If Brown becomes a 2nd division starter as some think he may, he alone could be close to the value of Norris. Same with Panik if Joe becomes a 2nd division second baseman. The best portion of the Giants' window may be right now and in the next two or three years. Their stellar rotation is already showing cracks, and age plus free agency could significantly reduce it within two years. Pitching is really tough to come by. If the Giants could pick up Norris for either Brown or Panik coupled with a slightly lesser pitching prospect, I would be sorely tempted. A rotation of Bumgarner, Cain, Lincecum, Vogelsong and Norris could be formidable, and it would allow Gaudin to take on more bullpen responsibility and for Zito to become the long man (or possibly be traded). It would provide protection if Vogelsong can't come back strongly or Gaudin flames out as a starter. That said, I have believed all season long that if the Giants made a big trade deadline deal, it would be for an outfielder -- and that was even BEFORE Angel Pagan was out, perhaps for the season. We're merely talking possibilities here, Randy. I feel like you and Don are BOTH becoming really defensive. I realize you are a big fan of both Brandon Belt and Gary Brown. I realize Don is a big fan of the old Giants. But let's keep talking and see what happens. A few days ago it appeared the Giants were more likely to be sellers than buyers. They still could be. Hey, I survived it when the Giants were talking about trading Lincecum for Alex Rios. Surely you can survice it when Gary Brown's name comes up in trade talk. As for Villalona over Brandon Belt, let's just take that one in a whole bunch of notches. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1896&page=1#12670#ixzz2Z2WT8bzc
|
|
sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
|
Post by sfgdood on Jul 14, 2013 12:42:50 GMT -5
I would much rather wait for Crick and Blackburn than trade either of them along with Brown for a mediocre pitcher like Norris. The other puzzle piece people may not consider is Eric Surkamp. He's healthy again and working his way back. He could also help bridge the gap needed for Crick and Blackburn to be ready for prime time.
And yes, I do believe you are giving up on Brown way too easily. For you to put more faith in a mediocre pitcher like Norris than in our own first round, CAL League POY is astounding to me...thus the sarcasm.
~Dood
|
|
|
Post by allenreed on Jul 14, 2013 14:41:30 GMT -5
Hasn't Brown himself been pretty mediocre? I haven't seen any indications that Panik will be anything special either. Norris has the ability, and getting him out of the Houston situation (and into a pitcher's park) may be just the thing for him to turn the corner. I don't think Bud will be an acce mind you, but I think in our park and in a winning situation, he could be a pretty good addition.
|
|
|
Post by allenreed on Jul 14, 2013 14:48:33 GMT -5
Even with Houston (and pitching in the juice box) his ERA and winning percentage tops both Lincecum's and Zito's, and he's making $3 million as opposed to Tim's $22 million and Barry's $20 million.
|
|
sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
|
Post by sfgdood on Jul 14, 2013 15:40:12 GMT -5
Hasn't Brown himself been pretty mediocre?
Dood - Brown has yet to start his big league career so while you can say that LATELY in his minor league career his numbers havent been eye popping, he was the CAL League POY in 2011. I have personally seen his talent. Have YOU seen him play?
Meanwhile Norriss has been a 4 year big leaguer with a 4.29 ERA...not a small sample.
~Dood
|
|
|
Post by allenreed on Jul 14, 2013 16:19:06 GMT -5
I believe, I saw him in some minor league allstar game on TV once. I'm just asking more than telling. I certainly haven't seen enough of Brown to form an opinion. But the Giants haven't seen him as meriting a look at the ML level yet. I have seen Norris. He's lacking in experience, and I believe in motivation. I think he could be a good 3 or 4 for us, and his affordable salary will allow us to pursue other avenues of improvement. This season he's outperforming 3/5 of our rotation while pitching for possibly the worst team in baseball in a hitters park. I have also seen enough of Barry Zito in a road uniform. We jump out to a lead and then the Padres (!) play Home Run Derby with $20 million Barry.
|
|
sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
|
Post by sfgdood on Jul 14, 2013 20:45:06 GMT -5
If you want to trade expiring contracts for a cheap, mediocre pitcher like Norris, that's one thing...but not before July 31. Under NO circumstances would I trade ANY of our top prospects for 4.29 ERA guy
~Dood
|
|
donk
New Member
Posts: 23
|
Post by donk on Jul 14, 2013 22:45:55 GMT -5
I would much rather wait for Crick and Blackburn than trade either of them along with Brown for a mediocre pitcher like Norris. The other puzzle piece people may not consider is Eric Surkamp. He's healthy again and working his way back. He could also help bridge the gap needed for Crick and Blackburn to be ready for prime time. And yes, I do believe you are giving up on Brown way too easily. For you to put more faith in a mediocre pitcher like Norris than in our own first round, CAL League POY is astounding to me...thus the sarcasm. ~Dood dk...Crick had to come out of the Futures Game today...couldn't finish his one inning...couldn't throw strikes...Galindo played in the game..he looks like an under fed Blanco with even better wheels....
|
|
|
Post by allenreed on Jul 14, 2013 22:51:47 GMT -5
Alot of Bud's ERA was built earlier in his career. This year he's at 3.63 and in 2011 he finished at 3.77. Now Bud will be arbitration eligible after this season, so he'll likely get a good increase over his current $3 million salary but I doubt he'll come anywhere near either Timmy's $22 million, or Barry's $20 million. Would I rather have a cheap mediocre pitcher rather than two expensive mediocre pitchers? Hell yes.
|
|
|
Post by sharksrog on Jul 15, 2013 0:53:10 GMT -5
Randy -- I would much rather wait for Crick and Blackburn than trade either of them along with Brown for a mediocre pitcher like Norris. Rog -- Believe me, Crick isn't going for Norris. Probably not Blackburn either, but certainly not Kyle. Randy -- The other puzzle piece people may not consider is Eric Surkamp. He's healthy again and working his way back. He could also help bridge the gap needed for Crick and Blackburn to be ready for prime time. Rog -- Now that's a salient comment. It has been easy to forget Surkamp as he has battled injury. Then again, it was a little tricky to remember him as a serious rotation candidate either after he put up a 1.84 WHIP in a brief trial with the Giants in 2011. His WHIP in a brief sample at Fresno this season is 1.38. But Eric has posted a four to one K/BB ratio in the minors, and that isn't to be sneezed at. I don't see him as a strong contender, but the more I look at his minor league numbers, the more I like him. That said, he seems like the type of pitcher whose minor league numbers don't truly translate when he faces the much tougher major league hitters. I like the idea of keeping an eye on him though. He's one more guy who has chance to join the rotation, and he could do so sooner than any other Giants starter in the minors. Randy -- And yes, I do believe you are giving up on Brown way too easily. For you to put more faith in a mediocre pitcher like Norris than in our own first round, CAL League POY is astounding to me...thus the sarcasm. Rog -- Here is the think, Randy. Fewer and fewer scouts are seeing Gary as a potential star. He's beginning to be seen as more of a second division center fielder or even fourth outfielder. You're not worried about a leadoff man who strikes out a lot and doesn't walk much? That's a poor combination. You're not worried about a leadoff man who despite having great speed, hasn't yet learned to steal bases efficiently? Brown's .925 OPS at San Jose was indeed impressive. But let's not forget that Brandon Crawford put up an OPS that was over 100 points higher when Brandon played there. At the age of 24 (almost 25) , Gary hasn't hit well for Fresno in a hitters' league. To his credit, he has bounced back from horrible starts both last season at Richmond and this year at Fresno. I think Gary can play the outfield at a high level. So can Juan Perez. The key to each will be his hitting. Juan has clearly outhit Gary at Fresno this season, but he is also two years older. I see Brown as being a clearly better prospect than Perez. But I no longer see Gary as being the best prospect in the organization. He's right up there with any other Giants position prospect, but that speaks a great deal about how weak the system is at the positions. What are you seeing in Brown that the scouts are no longer seeing, Randy? Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1896&page=1#12688#ixzz2Z5afhtaX
|
|
|
Post by sharksrog on Jul 15, 2013 1:12:12 GMT -5
Allen -- Would I rather have a cheap mediocre pitcher rather than two expensive mediocre pitchers? Hell yes. Rog -- Really, Allen? I'm shocked. You may be the only one here who feels that way. Seriously now, whom would you trade for Bud? I would think Bud could bring a nice prospect or two. As you point out, he has pitched well the past two seasons and is under team control through 2015, which will keep him relatively inexpensive. The best thing Bud has done this season is throw first-pitch strikes (up from a good 59% career to an excellent 56% this season). One thing I doubt he'll repeat in the second half though is his 8 home runs allowed. Even though he has had 19 starts thus far and likely no more than 13 more in the second half, I think he'll give up more homers in the second half than he did in the first. Bud is relatively attractive to me as a league average or slightly better starter who has improved this season and could be part of a team's future. He's seen as a 4th starter, and he likely is better than that. If the Giants were to acquire Norris, he might be a solid pitcher for them for five years or more. He's not the greatest pitcher in the world, but seems capable of filling a solid role. Is he worth an unproven prospect or two? Depending on who they are, of course, I'm beginning to lean more in that direction. If given the choice of having Norris or Ryan Vogelsong, given their respective ages, I'd go with Norris. With Norris, it's kind of a bird in the hand vs. bird in the bush scenario. In terms of longevity, he's likely to remain a Giant longer than any of the others out there. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1896&page=1#ixzz2Z5hPChYY
|
|
sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
|
Post by sfgdood on Jul 15, 2013 2:25:27 GMT -5
I don't see Gary much at all now. I live in San Jose, not Fresno. I see a few odd Grizzlies games here and there but not enough to have a good explanation for Gary's falling down the prospects list. All I can speak to is what I did see in San Jose...and that was a whole lot of talent. I'm not ready to declare him a bust like y'all are.
Question for Allen and Boly...Norris' cumulative W/L record in the big leagues thus far is 34-45 (this year he's 6-8). Why should we trade for a guy who can't even win games? Are you saying run support matters? Hmmmmm ~Dood
|
|
|
Post by sharksrog on Jul 15, 2013 2:45:47 GMT -5
Randy -- I'm not ready to declare him a bust like y'all are. Rog -- I don't think anyone here is declaring Gary a bust, but I know I personally don't see him as having above-average starting ability for a center fielder. Or at least he hasn't been able to bring that level of ability out. He did play quite well at San Jose, but his small number of walks was a bit of a flag. Gary will be 25 before the Giants finish their schedule this season. Few impact players haven't made the majors by that age. At this point, Gary hasn't yet mastered AAA, and the Giants continue to say that he is still a long way from being major-league ready. Gary is an above-average fielder, and it appears he will have above-average pop for a leadoff hitter. It appears he will be below-average among leadoff men in reaching base, and his base stealing is well below average among leadoff men. The primary ability a leadoff hitter needs is the ability to reach base. The secondary trait is to run the bases well. It appears Gary will be below average for a leadoff hitter in both those two key facets of offense. That likely means he will hit (or at least should hit) near the back of the order. That's not what a first-division center fielder usually does. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1896&page=1#12711#ixzz2Z65zbsuw
|
|
|
Post by klaiggeb on Jul 15, 2013 12:27:02 GMT -5
Question for Allen and Boly...Norris' cumulative W/L record in the big leagues thus far is 34-45 (this year he's 6-8). Why should we trade for a guy who can't even win games? Are you saying run support matters? Hmmmmm
~Dood
---boly says---
A valid question, Randy.
The Astros don't win, thus the record; they're not and haven't been a good team in a while.
The ERA is because of where they play their home games, or at least a large part of it.
As to your last question; couldn't you have asked the same thing when we traded for that, "never has been any good," Jason Schmidt?
Norris "might be..." might be... that guy "on the cusp" that I keep talking about, the same way Schmidt was.
That's why I do the deal.
But... NO CRICK, no how, no way.
boly
|
|
|
Post by allenreed on Jul 15, 2013 13:05:34 GMT -5
Seriously now, whom would you trade for Bud?
Frankly, I don't know if the Giants have the prospects to acquire Bud. I'm not that knowledgable about the minors, but from what I've read here, I would trade Brown and Panik for him today. Evidently this guy Crick is someone we don't want to give up, I don't know about Blackburn. I'm guessing Houston isn't wanting to trade for major leaguers, especially overpriced ones, but I would give them Zito and Lincecum for Norris right now.
|
|
|
Post by klaiggeb on Jul 16, 2013 9:35:55 GMT -5
Seriously now, whom would you trade for Bud?
Frankly, I don't know if the Giants have the prospects to acquire Bud. I'm not that knowledgable about the minors, but from what I've read here, I would trade Brown and Panik for him today. Evidently this guy Crick is someone we don't want to give up, I don't know about Blackburn. I'm guessing Houston isn't wanting to trade for major leaguers, especially overpriced ones, but I would give them Zito and Lincecum for Norris right now.
boly says----
If I'm Houston, I move Norris, but in return, I want a couple of young arms who have a legit shot.
2 for 1 is a good deal when you're where Houston is.
But Crick is too good to be a part of that deal.
He may not be the talent Wheeler is... but he's the next tier down.
Do we have the pieces to make a deal?
I don't know. But we're all speculating that Norris is the guy most of us want.
boly
|
|
|
Post by sharksrog on Jul 16, 2013 12:00:27 GMT -5
Boly -- Norris "might be..." might be... that guy "on the cusp" that I keep talking about, the same way Schmidt was. That's why I do the deal. Rog -- I see no sign that Bud is on the cusp, but he has value right now. As for Jason, I think he was just getting over some arm problems when the Giants traded for him. Perhaps he was putting his devastating change up together. The Giants seem to do very well with pitchers. The Schmidt deal was a coup, but how about picking up Ryan Vogelsong and Chad Gaudin for basically nothing? In fact, if we look at the Giants' pitching staff, with the exception of Barry Zito, the staff is pretty much homegrown or picked up for a song. Jeremy Affeldt would be another exception. And those two guys are southpaws who are struggling. Notice, by the way, that Jose Mijares has moved ahead of Affeldt in the southpaw reliever pecking order? Mijares wasn't as good as his figures looked early in the season, but of late he has been fabulous. Another guy the Giants picked up for a song who suddenly sang on key. Vogelsong, Gaudin, Casilla, Mijares and Kontos. That's a lot of something for nothing. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1896&page=1#12718#ixzz2ZECRAaGA
|
|
|
Post by sharksrog on Jul 16, 2013 12:06:23 GMT -5
Allen -- I'm guessing Houston isn't wanting to trade for major leaguers, especially overpriced ones, but I would give them Zito and Lincecum for Norris right now. Rog -- Of course we all agree with you on this one and couldn't pull the trigger on the trade fast enough. But even if the Astros were looking for big leaguers, why would they want to spend over $20 million for two months of Lincecum and Zito and then lose them to free agency anyway? That would be one of the most one-sided deals in history and one that would make no sense whatsoever for virtually any "selling" team in history. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1896&page=1#ixzz2ZEFvrHue
|
|
|
Post by sharksrog on Jul 16, 2013 12:08:28 GMT -5
One key factor that makes Bud more valuable than other starting pitchers on the trade market is that he is under team control for two more years after this one. If he were traded to the Giants and continued to be a solid if not spectacular starter, he might wind up spending half a dozen or so seasons with them.
|
|
sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
|
Post by sfgdood on Jul 16, 2013 12:24:04 GMT -5
Here's my point...is Bud Norris going to give us more value than what we trade for him and will he be more valuable than what he will be replacing in our rotation?
He is a 4.29 ERA pitcher in four full seasons in the big leagues. Yes he has been better this year but he has never pitched under the pressure of a penant contending team and never in the postseason. He is hardly battle tested. What he will be replacing is not only battle tested, they have come up HUGE in the most crucial of circumstances. In the post season...in elimination games...in the World Series. Now maybe Bud Norris will be the next guy to step up and be that guy but we are just speculating that he can. If we trade for him, I will be mildly skeptical until we see him under pressure. But I also will have a good feeling about the fact that Sabean and Bochy seem to know how to find the right pitchers on other rosters.
The biggest fear I have is watching All Star games a few years from now with Tim Lincecum, Gary Brown and Kyle Crick representing other teams and Bud Norris having been released by the Giants. I'd rather miss out on the playoffs this year, keep our options open and our prospects in the fold than to put all our eggs in the basket of an unproven 4.29 ERA guy.
~Dood
|
|
|
Post by allenreed on Jul 16, 2013 13:25:11 GMT -5
Allen -- I'm guessing Houston isn't wanting to trade for major leaguers, especially overpriced ones, but I would give them Zito and Lincecum for Norris right now. Rog -- Of course we all agree with you on this one and couldn't pull the trigger on the trade fast enough. But even if the Astros were looking for big leaguers, why would they want to spend over $20 million for two months of Lincecum and Zito and then lose them to free agency anyway? Allen- They wouldn't. That's why I said they're not wanting to trade for major leaguers.
|
|
|
Post by sharksrog on Jul 17, 2013 13:58:13 GMT -5
Randy -- The biggest fear I have is watching All Star games a few years from now with Tim Lincecum, Gary Brown and Kyle Crick representing other teams and Bud Norris having been released by the Giants. Rog -- That's always a possibility, but let's look at them one-by-one: . Tim Lincecum will almost certainly either be lost to free agency during the winter or will be overpaid to stay. . Gary Brown seems unlikely to become an All-Star, although that possibility certainly exists if he can play anywhere close to his 2011 season at San Jose. . Kyle Crick is a good enough prospect that the Giants won't part with him unless it is for something far more valuable than Bud Norris. . Unless he hurts his arm, it seems unlikely that Bud Norris would be released by the Giants. I think Bud has pretty much hit his peak, but if he keeps throwing 65% first-pitch strikes, he should stay there. I'm sure the Astros would like to have both Brown and Krick. As I mentioned, it's going to take more than Norris for the Giants to give up Krick, but getting the proven Norris for the unproven Brown would likely be a coup for the Giants. Norris was a major league starter at age 25. Brown is approaching 25, and he has yet to master AAA. Brown's potential seems a little higher than Norris', but Norris is proven, while Brown hasn't truly mastered any level above A ball. When one trades prospects for proven players, there is always the possiblity it will blow up in his face. Heck, the Angels got NOTHING for Johan Santana when they lost him in the Rule 5 draft, and Johan went on to become one of the very best pitchers of this past decade. But Brown is striking out nearly once every four at bats in a hitters' league. That's not close to what a team wants from its leadoff man. He's reaching base only 3 out of 10 times. That's not even close to what a team wants from its leadoff man. When Brown was tearing up the California League two years ago, the Giants probably could have gotten Norris for him. Since then though, Norris has performed better at the major league level than Brown has in the minors, so I think it would take at least another good prospect in addition to Brown to acquire Bud now. The other side of the equation for the Giants is that it quite possibly would be better to wait another year before dealing Brown. He might bounce back as a prospect, and might even do so well enough for the Giants to decide to keep him. Here is an intriguing reference regarding Brown. He's getting on base at a .301 clip in AAA at the same age Gregor Blanco was getting on base at a .366 rate in the majors. In fairness, Gregor was also striking out nearly once every four at bats, and his .309 SLG wasn't even close to Brown's .416 SLG. Brown appears to be a lot closer to Blanco than to Hunter Pence. That makes me wonder about All-Star possibilities for Gary. They exist. But are they enough to exclude trading him for something of proven value? Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1896&page=1#12742#ixzz2ZKRTvb4Q
|
|
|
Post by sharksrog on Jul 17, 2013 14:00:26 GMT -5
Rog -- Of course we all agree with you on this one and couldn't pull the trigger on the trade fast enough. But even if the Astros were looking for big leaguers, why would they want to spend over $20 million for two months of Lincecum and Zito and then lose them to free agency anyway? Allen- They wouldn't. That's why I said they're not wanting to trade for major leaguers. Rog -- I guess my question was why even bring up Lincecum and Zito at all? I doubt the Astros would trade Norris for you and me, either. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1896&page=1#ixzz2ZKZjgf3L
|
|
|
Post by allenreed on Jul 17, 2013 16:54:04 GMT -5
Rog -- I guess my question was why even bring up Lincecum and Zito at all? I doubt the Astros would trade Norris for you and me, either. Allen- And that's why they're in last place. What did you mean when you said Norris would be released by the Giants? Right now he'd slide nicely into the third starter role. The way Cain is going, maybe #2.
|
|
|
Post by allenreed on Jul 17, 2013 17:03:40 GMT -5
Randy -- The biggest fear I have is watching All Star games a few years from now with Tim Lincecum, Gary Brown and Kyle Crick representing other teams and Bud Norris having been released by the Giants.
Allen- Has anyone spoke of releasing these players? All I've heard is talk of trading them. BTW, were you overcome with fear at the sight of Joe Nathan, Jason Grilli, Carlos Beltran in last night's game? All were once Giant property.
|
|
sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
|
Post by sfgdood on Jul 17, 2013 17:45:32 GMT -5
Nathan...after I saw what we got in return (Pure Joke ski), I have cringed every time I see Nathan. But Nathan never came close to reaching his potential until he was shipped off. Maybe he needed the change.
Grilli...are you kidding? This guy was a NOTHING for 2 decades before he found his groove. I'm happy for him but how many organizations did he get lit up for before he finally made something of his career? This was an out of nowhere deal just like Vogey.
Beltran...he was a Giant for two months...hard to get sentimental over a rental mercenary.
I have seen both Crick and Brown dominate in San Jose. If you give up top prospects like these, you want to get proven assets in return...not 4.29 ERA clowns. And Lincecum has shown us all that he can easily be a dominator once again. I'd rather it be with us.
~Dood
|
|
|
Post by rxmeister on Jul 17, 2013 18:27:24 GMT -5
Dood, what's Bud Norris' career ERA? LOL! ERA is certainly an important stat, but it's the only stat you're looking at. Besides, he's pitching in a bandbox, what would his ERA be at AT&T? The telling stat to me is his K-BB totals and they're excellent. He strikes out almost a batter an inning and that shows dominant stuff. He's young enough and also has two years left before free agency. The only thing that scares me is that his K total has dropped a little this year. (81 in 114 innings) Assuming he's healthy and there's no velocity drop I would trade Brown and Panik for him without a doubt, although I'd try to keep Panik and offer up someone else. Blackburn and Crick are legit and off limits in my opinion, especially Crick.
|
|