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Post by klaiggeb on Jul 6, 2013 17:05:32 GMT -5
We've all seen pitchers have off/bad days.
It comes with the territory.
But honestly, in all of my 55+ years of watching baseball, I've never, ever seen a top flight pitcher lose command the way Cain did last night.
It was (and I can already hear the chants and rants coming my way), a Little League-like performance.
Not that he got hit.
Not that he walked people.
Not that he struggled with command.
Those things happen.
But folks, be honest here; he had no clue where the ball was going when it left his hand.
By my unofficial count, 10 bounced balls in the first 2+ innings.
He wasn't just missing, he was MISSING, and missing badly.
I, like everyone else, expect top flight starters to have off/bad days.
But not, repeat NOT to the extent of last night's debacle.
boly
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Post by Islandboagie on Jul 6, 2013 23:22:27 GMT -5
Add him to the growing list of players you guys want ship out.
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Post by allenreed on Jul 6, 2013 23:49:58 GMT -5
The guy had one bad game. Lincecum is like that at some point in almost every start.
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Post by Islandboagie on Jul 7, 2013 1:46:17 GMT -5
Lincecum has lower ERA than Cain.
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Post by klaiggeb on Jul 7, 2013 9:41:05 GMT -5
Add him to the growing list of players you guys want ship out.
--boly says---
As my father would say, Boagie, "shove it up your gigi!"
When did I say I wanted to ship him out?
When did I say I wanted him gone?
When did I say I was unhappy with him?
Never.
I said over and over and over in my post that bad games happen to everyone.
BUT... and pay attention here because you've managed to piss me off. BUT... he pitched like a Little Leaguer in this ONE.
This ONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Can you hear me now?
boly
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Post by Islandboagie on Jul 7, 2013 10:45:19 GMT -5
I hear you but if you think this was his only bad start of the season you'd be mistaken. Why does Cain get a free pass when you're ready to ship off Barry Zito and Tim Lincecum when they've given up less runs? In fact, trading Cain would make more sense to me because you'd get more in return. That is if we're intending to rebuild after a championship in 2012, like you're wanting them to. Heck, we could probably get a lot for Posey and Bumgarner too.
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Post by Islandboagie on Jul 7, 2013 11:27:19 GMT -5
By the way Boly, it's not my intention to "piss you off" I am responding to your and Allen's panicfest. I don't believe it's wise to dismantle a defending championship team. We've found a recipe that's been successful, why change it until its proven that it's no longer successful.
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Post by klaiggeb on Jul 7, 2013 12:16:24 GMT -5
By the way Boly, it's not my intention to "piss you off" I am responding to your and Allen's panicfest. I don't believe it's wise to dismantle a defending championship team. We've found a recipe that's been successful, why change it until its proven that it's no longer successful. ---boly says--- Boagie, I honestly don't know what else I can say to help you understand I am not in panic mode. Far from it. What I am is in: Angry/frustrated/disappointed/ticked off mode. As to Cain, I know he's had many bad starts this season; inexplicably bad starts. My only point was, and continues to be that even in his bad starts, I've never seen him lose command of the strike zone this badly. He's gotten hit hard... because he threw fat strikes. He's walked hitters... but he was frequently close to the plate. He's bounced balls.... but never, ever THAT many in 2+ innings. I'm sitting there watching the game and it suddenly occurs to me; "this is pathetic! It's like watching a little league game." And his terrible lack of command was just that; terrible. Go back and watch some video. he wasn't just missing the plate, he was MISSING THE PLATE. Some of his pitches were out of the zone by anywhere from 2 to 4 feet. And that is not Matt Cain. That is NOT a major leaguer pitcher. Thus, my comment. Again, not paniking, just angry/frustrated/disappointed/ticked off. See, here's the thing that I simply can't get past. When we go to the doctor or dentist we have expectations of care. When our children go off to school, we have expectations of how our children should be schooled. Now to be fair, everyone's expectations are likely a little different. I have expectations for professional atheletes. I expect them to have bad days I expect them to have good days I expect them to HUSTLE I expect them to give no less than 80% effort. What we've seen over the last 8 weeks is unacceptable. From reading your comments you seem to have, and no disrespect intended, much lower expectations than I do. These are the same guys that won the World Series in 4 games. We are a decent, not great, hitting team. 8 weeks? What did Vin Scully say Friday night: Pence, Pablo, Blanco and 1 other guy were 5 for 124? I played the game at a high level. I coached at a high level. I understand pressing and what not. But again I say, 8 weeks? !!!! From professionals? Fix the problem. Enough with the lameoid excuses. boly
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Post by allenreed on Jul 7, 2013 15:16:30 GMT -5
By the way Boly, it's not my intention to "piss you off" I am responding to your and Allen's panicfest. I don't believe it's wise to dismantle a defending championship team. We've found a recipe that's been successful, why change it until its proven that it's no longer successful
Allen- Because you have to constantly evolve and improve. The other teams are going to improve, so if you want to stay ahead of them, you have to improve too. I know if you had your druthers, the 2010 team would still be intact, but the Giants madre that mistake and lost in 2011. They made it again this year and well, you see the results.
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Post by Islandboagie on Jul 7, 2013 15:58:56 GMT -5
2010 and 2012's pitching staffs were basically the same. Offensively they were different. The notable improvements were Hunter Pence, whom I wanted the Giants to get instead of Beltran in 2011. Marco Scutaro was a no-brainer. I supported Blanco and Crawford from day one. The only one that I was against was Angel Pagan and I admitted I was wrong there. I did want them to resign Uribe who just killed us on Friday, and I didn't like them getting rid of Gillaspie before this season.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Jul 9, 2013 14:12:27 GMT -5
There has got to be a certain amount of constant evaluation being done by the front office staff...but as far as fair evaluation goes, Boagie has an excellent point that Lincecum has been harder to score on than Cain. Cain has probably had more quality starts but he also has been shelled more often. With his big deal, Matt isnt going anywhere so we have to look at Timmy more closely. But I see Tim as being on a slow and steady uptick whereas Matt is up and down like a roller coaster. My belief is that in 2014 both will be elite level once again. Matt with the Giants and Timmy wherever he ends up signing.
As far as the position players go, you have to consider not only what a player is doing this year, but why his numbers are where they are, and also what you reasonably expect from that player next year and beyond. I believe the Giants expect Crawford will contribute much offensively next year and even the rest of this year. Same with Pablo and Marco...I tend to agree.
~Dood
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Post by klaiggeb on Jul 11, 2013 10:29:24 GMT -5
With his big deal, Matt isnt going anywhere so we have to look at Timmy more closely. But I see Tim as being on a slow and steady uptick whereas Matt is up and down like a roller coaster. My belief is that in 2014 both will be elite level once again. Matt with the Giants and Timmy wherever he ends up signing.
---boly says---
I agree, Randy.
Though I have NOT thrown in the towel yet... with the BEST TEAM MONEY CAN BUY in Los Angeles, I'm doubtful about this year.
When the season started, I thought this team had the POTENTIAL to be one of the best SF Giant teams ever...
And then the injuries started...and the bad performances... and weird stuff... and... well, here we are.
IF I'm Sabean... IF... I'm... Sabean, I'm already looking at next year.
Who do I want on the team.
Who is expendable that I can trade and bring the most return on my dollarm
Again, IF... IF I'm Sabean, here's what I do.
On in the infield, I keep Crawford, Belt and Posey for sure.
Though I love Scutaro, NOT MY FIRST CHOICE TO DO, but...down the stretch THIS season, he might be a good chip to play
In the outfield, Pence is a no-brainer. Has to be kept.
I keep Pagan, but I want him in LF, not CF.
I'd like to hang on to:
Blanco
On the mound, the definate Keepers are:
Cain Bumgarner Lopez
I'd like to retain:
Vogey Romo Casilla
I'm Ixey-dixey on:
Affeldt Mijares
Next year, we must re-tool in certain places.
I simply don't see a return to the World series without a blue-chipper being traded. And for me, that blue chipper is Fatso.
His replacement? Right now, I don't have one. Then again, I haven't taken a good look at the young kids in ANY organization to know.
But that's what I'd do.
boly
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Jul 11, 2013 11:57:47 GMT -5
I'm confused Boly...you said you're looking towards next year but then you talk about trading a blue chipper. No, I wont do that, especially not for a rental. If we get a pitcher that we will control after this year, maybe...MAYBE.
My feeling is dont trade anyone whose contract wont be expiring this coming offseason and even then trade only after the July 31 non-waiver deadline.
I'm not giving up either but I want our current roster to get it done or let the chips fall. Then we can talk about 2014.
~Dood
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Post by allenreed on Jul 11, 2013 13:25:29 GMT -5
I can't think of anyone who is more up and down than Lincecum. Often within the same game. he hums along for a few innings, then gives up four runs in one inning. He's been a bit better lately (though he still doesn't win) but he isn't worth anywhere near what he will likely cost. Pablo? I'm shopping him like hell. But he's been so bad that you probably wouldn't get good value for him. Add his weight to the issue, and I'm not sure what you'd get for him. If the Giants deem themselves out of the race, I'd sit him, send him to Scottsdale with a trainer, and tell him he's not going to play again until he's in decent shape.
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Post by klaiggeb on Jul 11, 2013 14:22:04 GMT -5
I'm confused Boly...you said you're looking towards next year but then you talk about trading a blue chipper. No, I wont do that, especially not for a rental. If we get a pitcher that we will control after this year, maybe...MAYBE.
My feeling is dont trade anyone whose contract wont be expiring this coming offseason and even then trade only after the July 31 non-waiver deadline.
I'm not giving up either but I want our current roster to get it done or let the chips fall. Then we can talk about 2014.
---boly says---
Randy, I think we're both saying the same thing, but in different ways.
1-I WANT to see these guys get it done. I do.
Thing is, we all waited anxiously for Pablo to get back and help the offense.
I cautioned that he'd been out, and it would take some time... and boy HAS IT! Even I never thought he's stink up the joint this long!
But there are signs he's coming out of it, and that's good.
2-Again, I agree; NO WAY we move our top prospects. None.
3-IF... and I say IF... we are out of it at the deadline, THEN I begin contemplating moves for next year.
That's where I see fatso and Tim as being HUGE chips to play.
4-But trading Pablo leaves a void at 3B.
In ANY deal I make, I want top flight arms coming my way.
IF I make BOTH deals, one of them would have to include a top flight, 3B prospect.
boly
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Jul 11, 2013 14:48:49 GMT -5
4-But trading Pablo leaves a void at 3B.
In ANY deal I make, I want top flight arms coming my way.
IF I make BOTH deals, one of them would have to include a top flight, 3B prospect.
Dood - that's the rub with trading Pablo. The cupboard in the minors is quite bare at most positions and third base is no different. If we trade Pablo, we'd better
A) get a 3b prospect in return that can clear the fence with regularity; or B) have at least 2 quality FA 3rd basemen in mind to jump on (and I don't even know what will be available on the market); or C) be willing to move Posey there and Buster doesn't seem like he wants to do that.
~Dood
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Post by klaiggeb on Jul 12, 2013 10:01:45 GMT -5
4-But trading Pablo leaves a void at 3B.
In ANY deal I make, I want top flight arms coming my way.
IF I make BOTH deals, one of them would have to include a top flight, 3B prospect.
Dood - that's the rub with trading Pablo. The cupboard in the minors is quite bare at most positions and third base is no different. If we trade Pablo, we'd better
A) get a 3b prospect in return that can clear the fence with regularity; or B) have at least 2 quality FA 3rd basemen in mind to jump on (and I don't even know what will be available on the market); or C) be willing to move Posey there and Buster doesn't seem like he wants to do that.
---boly says---
I often find myself wonder IF the question has even been presented to Posey.
I know he 'says' he likes catching... but again I wonder, IF he gave it some real thought...moving to 3B, he might come to the conclusion that NOT having to squat behind the plate would HELP him at the plate, and extend his career.
boly
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