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Post by klaiggeb on May 23, 2013 15:27:02 GMT -5
Don:
I know from what I read that he was called "Mandrake the magician," but when you look up his career numbers, they're really not that big of a deal.
I mean, '53, '54, '55 were the only times he hit above, or for that matter anywhere close. 270ish...
According to the game the other night, he's the last Giant, other than Pablo to have 20 game hit streaks in back-to-back seasons.
You saw Mueller play, I did not.
What can you tell me about him?
Was he really THAT good of a hitter?
Did he get hurt, and did that ruin his career?
Thanks, Don!
boly
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Post by sharksrog on May 23, 2013 17:43:55 GMT -5
I got to see Mueller play a very few times. I know my dad liked him, and Don did indeed come close to winning the batting crown in 1954, being beaten out by Willie Mays on the final day of the season. (I think Duke Snider was in there too.)
Don hit lefty, and I suspect he hit behind the runner well. He would seem to fit the definition of a professional hitter -- good average, few walks, few strikeouts. My biggest issue with him would be that he didn't get on base enough.
It looks to me that Mueller had a right fielder's arm, but was lacking in speed. I would like to have Don explain to us why Mueller was a better all-around player than Gregor Blanco.
On the face of things it would seem that Don was clearly better, but the only advantages I can see that he enjoyed over Gregor is that he was a better hitter for average and had the stronger arm. Gregor seems to be about Don's equal power-wise, gets on base more, hits into far fewer double plays, is a much faster runner, and covers far more ground.
With Don's greater contact, his ability to move runners likely offset his higher rate of grounding into double plays. And Don did enjoy at least something of a power advantage over Gregor, especially considering their respective eras.
Still, while Don has no doubt gone down in history as a much better player than Gregor, I'll have to leave it to Don to tell us why.
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Post by sharksrog on May 23, 2013 17:46:33 GMT -5
As for getting hurt, Don broke his ankle late in 1951, right before Bobby Thomson's home run, didn't he? I'm not sure if that was responsible for his decline after 1955.
One thing about Gregor I like is that he doesn't have to hit for a high average to help his team, whereas I suspect Don did have to do so.
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donk
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Post by donk on May 23, 2013 18:06:22 GMT -5
Don Mueller played in the days when I wasn't very close to NYC and didn't see him that much...however, it is plain to see that his big thing was the ability to put the bat on the ball. They made a big to do about Scutaro only striking out about 6% as a Giant...Mueller only struck out 3% for his career....Don was an ideal 2 hitter forced to bat 3rd because Dark was even a better 2 hitter....the two biggest plays I can remember was Don reaching out for a pitch on an IBB, and lining the game winning hit during the great 1951 comeback....the other was the 1951 playoff when he got a seeing eye hit past Hodges and advancing Dark to third...Irvin popped up, Lockman hit a double, Mueller slid into third and hurt his ankle and had to be carried off...Hondo Hartung ran for Mueller and Tomson hit his home run...Actually, I really liked Willard Marshall, big, strong ex-Marine who played right field before Mueller...he was one of the 4 Giants that hit over 29 or more homers in 1947..the Giants hit 221 homers and led the league in slugging but not in victories...almost the opposite of the 2012 Giants...
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Post by sharksrog on May 24, 2013 9:28:32 GMT -5
Don -- Don (Mueller) was an ideal 2 hitter forced to bat 3rd because Dark was even a better 2 hitter Rog -- With his extremely high contact rate, Mueller's natural spot in the order does indeed appear to be #2, but why would he be considered "ideal" given the following: . His OBP was only .322. . He grounded into 50 double plays over a three-year period. . He didn't appear to have much speed, stealing only 11 bases in his 12 year career. . He didn't sacrifice much, or hit many sacrifice flies. . His career 88 OPS+ shows him to be a below-average hitter despite his .296 career average. . Mueller scored only 499 runs and drove in 520 in his 12 year career. That doesn't sound like an ideal #2 hitter to me. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1783&page=1#11066#ixzz2UDhO6q9k |
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Post by klaiggeb on May 24, 2013 9:56:20 GMT -5
As for getting hurt, Don broke his ankle late in 1951, right before Bobby Thomson's home run, didn't he
---boly says---
Rog, you're thinking of Monte Irvin. He broke his ankle, and was never the same.
boly
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donk
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Post by donk on May 24, 2013 12:15:54 GMT -5
As for getting hurt, Don broke his ankle late in 1951, right before Bobby Thomson's home run, didn't he ---boly says--- Rog, you're thinking of Monte Irvin. He broke his ankle, and was never the same. ,,dk...Monte broke his leg in an exhibition game...Mueller got hurt in the 1951 playoff game as he slid into third on Lockman's double...the next batter was Thomson...and the Giants won the pennant, the Giants won the pennant...and I went more than crazy...Monte had a great World Series against the Yanks...11 for 24 and stole home..... |
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donk
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Post by donk on May 24, 2013 12:57:47 GMT -5
Don -- Don (Mueller) was an ideal 2 hitter forced to bat 3rd because Dark was even a better 2 hitter Rog -- With his extremely high contact rate, Mueller's natural spot in the order does indeed appear to be #2, but why would he be considered "ideal" given the following: . His OBP was only .322. . He grounded into 50 double plays over a three-year period. . He didn't appear to have much speed, stealing only 11 bases in his 12 year career. . He didn't sacrifice much, or hit many sacrifice flies. . His career 88 OPS+ shows him to be a below-average hitter despite his .296 career average. . Mueller scored only 499 runs and drove in 520 in his 12 year career. That doesn't sound like an ideal #2 hitter to me. dk ..your lacking of understanding as to what makes an ideal #2 hitter closes your mind as to the value of any player....the one thing that makes a #2 hitter stand out is the value to a team that can't be weighed by stats....it is the ability to take pitches and get long in the count to allow baserunners to move up...it is the ability to hit with 2 strikes on him and to advance runners, either with a hit or a well placed out...you can't take stats of a #3 hitter and equate what he would do as a #2 hitter...that would take knowing what the hitter is capable of doing, not what he did under different circumstances... if you haven't learned the value of a hit being more than the value of a walk, I can't help you...but try to understand that a runner can only advance one base on a walk and is only limited by the hit and the bases open.....and why bring in runs scored and RBI's....you always consider them team stats if you are on the other side of the argument.....after Ott and Marshall, along came Mueller...and I never remember anyone saying he was too slow or not a good fielder....I don't think Duroucher would have played Mueller if he was a detriment in either running or fielding...Leo made some other drastic changes to the Giants, why do you think he kept Don??? Playing right field in the Polo Grounds was very difficult..even harder than the phone booth....concrete walls, overhanging upper deck, 450' power alley with a bull pen right in the heart of it, and rapidly change from 258 at the foul pole to 450 in right center made for some crazy bounces off the concrete wall.... |
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Post by sharksrog on May 24, 2013 14:37:48 GMT -5
dk ..your lacking of understanding as to what makes an ideal #2 hitter closes your mind as to the value of any player....the one thing that makes a #2 hitter stand out is the value to a team that can't be weighed by stats....it is the ability to take pitches and get long in the count to allow baserunners to move up... Rog -- There wasn't much base stealing back in those days. Eddie Stanky was primarily a leadoff man with the Giants and five other NL teams. He stole 48 bases in his 11-year career. If Don was taking pitches so that Eddie could steal, I believe he was little rewarded for his efforts. Don -- it is the ability to hit with 2 strikes on him and to advance runners, either with a hit or a well placed out... Rog -- It doesn't much matter if a hitter does what he's supposed to with two strikes or with one or none. Outs that advance runners are nice, but walks that do so are even nicer. Don -- you can't take stats of a #3 hitter and equate what he would do as a #2 hitter... Rog -- I think the primary job of a hitter no matter where in the order is to avoid making an out. Don -- that would take knowing what the hitter is capable of doing, not what he did under different circumstances... Rog -- Mostly I'm interested in how many bases a batter accumulates and advances runners compared to the number of outs he makes. Don -- if you haven't learned the value of a hit being more than the value of a walk, I can't help you... Rog -- The overall value of a hit is greater than a walk (especially if the hit is for extra bases), but about 2/3rds of the time a walk is as good as a single. Don -- but try to understand that a runner can only advance one base on a walk and is only limited by the hit and the bases open..... Rog -- Sometimes a walk doesn't advance a runner (at second or third) at all, and it never advances a runner with the bases empty. Don -- and why bring in runs scored and RBI's....you always consider them team stats if you are on the other side of the argument..... Rog -- They are indeed team stats. But Don played on some decent teams, and he neither scored nor drove in a lot of runs. Don -- after Ott and Marshall, along came Mueller...and I never remember anyone saying he was too slow or not a good fielder....I don't think Duroucher would have played Mueller if he was a detriment in either running or fielding...Leo made some other drastic changes to the Giants, why do you think he kept Don??? Rog -- I can't answer that, but 11 career steals doesn't lead me to believe Don had much speed. I did see Don play a few times, but I was too young to remember about his speed. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1783&page=1#11076#ixzz2UEv4hgvr |
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Post by klaiggeb on May 24, 2013 14:56:00 GMT -5
,,dk...Monte broke his leg in an exhibition game...Mueller got hurt in the 1951 playoff game as he slid into third on Lockman's double...the next batter was Thomson...and the Giants won the pennant, the Giants won the pennant...and I went more than crazy...Monte had a great World Series against the Yanks...11 for 24 and stole home.....
---boly says--
Don, are you sure it wasn't Irvin who broke his leg in that game? I had always read it was Irvin.
boly
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Post by sharksrog on May 24, 2013 15:03:47 GMT -5
Boly -- Don, are you sure it wasn't Irvin who broke his leg in that game? I had always read it was Irvin. Rog -- I believe Don is right that it was Mueller who broke his leg before Bobby Thomson's homer. Willie Mays cried when he got a hit in spring training of 1952, and Monte broke his ankle sliding into third on the play. As we were going through this discussion, I myself had to stop and think about these two incidents. All within the time frame of the 1951 playoffs through spring training of 1952: . Mueller broke his leg (ankle?) right before the Thomson home run. . Mickey Mantle tore up his knee on a ball hit to right-center by Willie. . Monte broke his ankle on a hit by Willie. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1783&page=1#11094#ixzz2UF441cNV |
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donk
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Post by donk on May 24, 2013 17:13:48 GMT -5
,,dk...Monte broke his leg in an exhibition game...Mueller got hurt in the 1951 playoff game as he slid into third on Lockman's double...the next batter was Thomson...and the Giants won the pennant, the Giants won the pennant...and I went more than crazy...Monte had a great World Series against the Yanks...11 for 24 and stole home..... ---boly says-- Don, are you sure it wasn't Irvin who broke his leg in that game? I had always read it was Irvin. boly dk I was watching the game on TV in Michigan and I was tearing up when they carried Mueller off the field.....as I wrote, Monte had a great 1951 World Series...it would have been tough to do with a broken leg...  Mueller didn't really suffer from the injury (maybe slowed a little) as he had some of his best seasons after that injury...he started in AAA as a 17 year old kid but hardly played his first 2 years...His father,Walt, and his Uncle Heinie both played in the bigs, too.. Monte Irvin was the greatest AAA player I ever saw in the 15 years I lived in a AAA city....add on to Monte's injury....in the early days when I started to watch baseball...all teams had their Spring training site but they barnstormed from their camp up to their home in the "North" and the Giants always travelled with the Indians....one year Feller beaned Hank Leiber, our CF'er, and then there was the Irvin broken leg....Hank Leiber got traded to the Cubs with Dick Bartell and Gus Mancuso for Billy Jurges, Ken O'Dea and Frank Demaree...I really liked Bartell and Leiber and it hurt to lose them...Jurges figured in 2 bad happenings...with the team in first place he got into a huge argument with umpire George Magerkurth over a foul/home run..ended up that both guys spit on the other...the league gave them 10 day suspensions and $25 fine..Giants dropped out of first and never recovered...the league put up the screens to aid in calling that play....second, Jurges got beaned the following year and missed a lot of games,.my friend saw that beaning and he was sick over it even thogh he wasn't a Giants' fan... |
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Post by sharksrog on May 24, 2013 18:38:18 GMT -5
Unfortunately, injuries are part of the game. This last one to Ryan Vogelsong is particularly tough for both him and the team. Losing Santiago Casilla at the same time to surgery doesn't help much either.
But this is how the minor league guys get their shot. Jean Machi has certainly taken advantage of his thus far.
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Mueller didn't really suffer from the injury (maybe slowed a little) as he had some of his best seasons after that injury...he started in AAA as a 17 year old kid but hardly played his first 2 years...His father,Walt, and his Uncle Heinie both played in the bigs, too..