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Post by klaiggeb on May 8, 2013 8:41:38 GMT -5
Well, he gave us a game and a half tease, and I guess we should be happy about that.
But last night, and in his previous start, Tim reverted back to what he has been these last couple of years: erratic with a very poor command of the strike zone.
I asked before the season began just how many bad/poor/mediocre games would it take before everyone else on the board not named boly, would begin to admit that Tim isn't going to come back.
He's 28 years old, and should be at the very top of his game.
Except he's not.
He's regressing.
So I pose this question to Roger or whomever else would like to investigate it further;
How many really GOOD pitchers who have NOT been injured, have had their careers going in the wrong direction at age 28.
Now let me set my parameters.
1-They have to have been really good to very good 2-They may not have been Cy Young winners, but they were among the very best in the game by age 26 or 27. 3-They don't have to be Hall of Famers 4-Injuries cannot be included in their demise. 5-Examples would be, but are not limited to the following type pitchers;
Drysdale, Bunning, O'steen, Koufax, Marichal, Gibson, Friend, Sphan, Lollich, Kaat.
My point is this; I can't even think of ONE! Not ONE! of whom, by the age of 28, many were saying that IF they're not done, they're on their way down.
I've had enough of Lincecum. E-FRICKIN-NUFF!
That was not (again) a major league performance, and we, the Giant fans have a right to expect better.
His performance last night was embarrassing. He had about as much control of the strike zone last night as a blind Zombie has of controlling a car on the 101!
Okay. I'm being a little tongue-in-cheek, but he often (and I mean OFTEN) missed the strike zone by little league proportions.
At the end of this season, replacement or not, it's time to cut bait.
A disgusted, again/still
boly
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Post by Islandboagie on May 8, 2013 14:17:04 GMT -5
Boly- So I pose this question to Roger or whomever else would like to investigate it further;
How many really GOOD pitchers who have NOT been injured, have had their careers going in the wrong direction at age 28.
Now let me set my parameters.
1-They have to have been really good to very good 2-They may not have been Cy Young winners, but they were among the very best in the game by age 26 or 27. 3-They don't have to be Hall of Famers 4-Injuries cannot be included in their demise. 5-Examples would be, but are not limited to the following type pitchers;
Drysdale, Bunning, O'steen, Koufax, Marichal, Gibson, Friend, Sphan, Lollich, Kaat.
My point is this; I can't even think of ONE! Not ONE! of whom, by the age of 28, many were saying that IF they're not done, they're on their way down.
Boagie- Zito's career was on a steady decline since winning the Cy Young in 2002. Just two years after his Cy Young he was only 11-11 an ERA of 4.48 and he was just 26 then. The next year he bounced back a bit, but he's never been the same as he was in 2002. Last year and this year he's been better, but just prior to that, people on this board were calling for his release.
It's hard to pick pitchers who havent had injuries because I would guess most pitchers do suffer some sort of injury by the age of 28. Kerry Wood and Mark Prior come to mind when we're talking about very good pitchers who declined before 28, but obviously those two had injuries that led to a lot of their decline. Fernando Valenzuela and Dwight Gooden also had injuries, but I think their declines came first.
I don't think it's so much a freak injury that causes their decline, but more so the amount of innings pitched that leads to a breakdown of their arm. In almost all instances that seems to be the case, especially with Gooden and Valenzuela.
Every once in a while there's a pitcher who can handle logging a lot of innings while also throwing hard. Clemens, Randy Johnson, and Nolan Ryan among others managed to do so. But lets look at those 3 as an example. Did they have many off-speed pitches? No. Their primary pitch was the fastball. I don't know the numbers, but my guess is that these 3 threw the fastball close to 90% of the time.
Nowadays pitchers for some reason are told that they can't succeed at the major league level with two pitches.
Tim Lincecum for example came into baseball with a good fastball, his splitfinger/changeup and a hard breaking curveball. These pitches and 2 Cy Youngs apparently weren't good enough to succeed at the major league level, he needed to add a slider. I forget exactly which year he added the slider (I think it was 2010 or 2011) but since that point he's been in a decline. Perhaps that extra pitch has put more stress on his arm, which has led to his decline in velocity and control.
I get frusterated with Tim, just like you do Boly. I was yelling at the TV all last night. But I think he knows he's got a lack of control, I'm sure he wants to throw strikes as much as you and me want him to. I'm sure he wants to go back to being the Cy Young award winner. I don't doubt he loses sleep over it. I want him to do well, and I hate that I am running out of excuses to defend him. But I can never be disgusted with Tim Lincecum no matter how bad he is. It may sound stubborn or foolish, but anyone who made the '10 WS Championship possible goes down in my book as a great Giant. Timmy was arguably the biggest reason for 2010, so he's earned all Giants fans respect, I, myself, chose to honor that.
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donk
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Post by donk on May 8, 2013 21:51:51 GMT -5
two Giants pitchers had great starts...Bill Voiselle and Cliff Melton....Bill was done with the Giants at 28 and out of the bigs at 31....Cliff was done at 28 but hung around thru the War years..... Sheldon Jones...fits your perameters...good pitcher for 3 years, faded in the third year...Randy Jones...similar...Paul Dean...Van Lingle Mungo...done at 28, but one bounce back with Giants during the War...Chan Ho Park...Hal Newhouser, last good year at 29...Billy Loes...Bob Turley..
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Post by klaiggeb on May 9, 2013 9:42:12 GMT -5
I get frusterated with Tim, just like you do Boly. I was yelling at the TV all last night. But I think he knows he's got a lack of control, I'm sure he wants to throw strikes as much as you and me want him to. I'm sure he wants to go back to being the Cy Young award winner. I don't doubt he loses sleep over it. I want him to do well, and I hate that I am running out of excuses to defend him. But I can never be disgusted with Tim Lincecum no matter how bad he is. It may sound stubborn or foolish, but anyone who made the '10 WS Championship possible goes down in my book as a great Giant. Timmy was arguably the biggest reason for 2010, so he's earned all Giants fans respect, I, myself, chose to honor that.
--boly says--
Boagie: I get it, and totally agree! heck, I pitched well into my 40's so I understand how frustrating it is to lose plate command.
I also respect what he's done. 2 Cy Youngs? That is incredible.
But we have to deal with a couple of facts.
1-This is the major leagues 2-What he did in the past was awesome... but he needs to perform NOW IF he wishes to remain a big league pitcher 3-He's lost whatever it was he had, and IMHO, until he realizes that HE has to make some changes... nothing will change. 4-If he can't get the job done, and he isn't, he needs to be replaced.
Personally, I have little or no patience with Major League pitchers who can't throw strikes.
Am I being cruel? Too harsh?
Maybe/I don't know/I don't think so.
We're talking the MAJOR-FRICIKIN'-LEAGUES. Not little league. These guys are supposed to be the best of the best.
Timmy was, but he isn't.
.
But as the best of the best, my tolerance for NO command of the strike zone for a 28 year old, 5-8 year veteran is non existent.
So yeah, you bet your bippy I'll honor and LOVE the crap outta him for what he did for us.
But DID is a past tense verb, and in sports, you have to perform now.
If we went by love and honoring past actions, Marichal would still be pitching for us, and Mays would be patrolling CF.
Whatever the reasons for his problems, for the TEAM, for the FANS, enough is enough.
Fix it, or retire, or move on.
That's the cold harsh reality of pro sports.
boy
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Post by klaiggeb on May 9, 2013 9:47:32 GMT -5
two Giants pitchers had great starts...Bill Voiselle and Cliff Melton....Bill was done with the Giants at 28 and out of the bigs at 31....Cliff was done at 28 but hung around thru the War years..... Sheldon Jones...fits your perameters...good pitcher for 3 years, faded in the third year...Randy Jones...similar...Paul Dean...Van Lingle Mungo...done at 28, but one bounce back with Giants during the War...Chan Ho Park...Hal Newhouser, last good year at 29...Billy Loes...Bob Turley
---boly says---
Don, not sure I agree that those pitchers fit my parameters.
Voiselle really had only 1 good year; 1944. The remainder of the time his ERA was over 4.00
Same with Sheldon Jones; 1948-1949. After that his ERA was in the 4.00's too.
Of all the pitchers you mentioned, with Mungo being the exception, NONE of them were in the class of Drysdale, O'steen Bunning and the others I mentioned.
None of the ones, except for Turley, and only briefly, were considered among the "best" in the game at their times.
But thanks for offering some ideas.
boly
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donk
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Post by donk on May 9, 2013 20:15:05 GMT -5
the guys I mentioned were good pitchers in their time but went out of the game or into hanger ons too quicky...Bill Voiselle was a 21 game winner in his rookie year...for a very poor team...he slumped to 14-14..soph. jinx....the 3rd season he went 8-0 and Ott yelled at him for grooving an 0-2 pitch and he was never the same afterwards. Cliff Melton 20-9 as a rookie and helped Hubbell pitch the Giants into the world series...and their home field much more hitter friendly than the phone booth...when Rog went crazy over Tim in his rookie year, I mentioned these 2 as examples of what can happen to great rookies...the other guys I mentioned had great starts but went down too quick....they would have been in the class of the guys you mentioned if the ever got back to their rookie level...I would take any of these guys at their rookie output...
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Post by sharksrog on May 11, 2013 23:22:44 GMT -5
Boly -- Personally, I have little or no patience with Major League pitchers who can't throw strikes. Am I being cruel? Too harsh? Rog -- I understand what you're saying here, but Nolan Ryan had a hard time throwing strikes, and it still worked out well for him. He would have been even better, of course, if he could have consistently put the ball in the strike zone, but in all of major league history, he was the hardest starter to hit. Players, even the great ones, are far from perfect. I think it's about enjoying them for what they are. Matt Cain seems to be coming out of his funk. Last season Mad Bum came out of his. So did Ryan Vogelsong. Barry Zito too. Even Tim Lincecum was decent after the All-Star game. Should we be frustrated with the Giants' starters thus far? I have to say yes. But we should also realize there is a good chance that they will get it together. The two southpaws likely won't continue to pitch as well as they have. But the three righties have a fine chance to improve their performances. Maybe/I don't know/I don't think so. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1702#ixzz2T355xbEY
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Post by sharksrog on May 11, 2013 23:39:28 GMT -5
Boagie -- Tim Lincecum for example came into baseball with a good fastball, his splitfinger/changeup and a hard breaking curveball. These pitches and 2 Cy Youngs apparently weren't good enough to succeed at the major league level, he needed to add a slider. I forget exactly which year he added the slider (I think it was 2010 or 2011) but since that point he's been in a decline. Perhaps that extra pitch has put more stress on his arm, which has led to his decline in velocity and control. Rog -- I'm not sure there is ANYONE who truy knows what happened to Tim Lincecum. I'm pretty sure Tim doesn't know himself. Boly's points are good ones. As are yours, Boagie. I do know that Tim's dad has said that pitchers who throw lots of change ups tend to lose velocity on their fastballs. I think that may explain why Tim has lost velocity. It then appears that the loss of velocity no longer allows him to get by with as many pitches in the hitting zone. If they are fastballs, batters have a split-second longer to get on them. If they are off-speed, the lack of speed on Tim's fastball lessens the difference between it and the secondary deliveries. As for his pitches, he had all four of them when he won his two Cy Youngs. As with most pitchers, his velocity has been declining, but that decline was particularly large in 2010 and especially last season. When Tim entered organized ball, he threw only his fastball and a big waterfall curve ball. Before his rookie season he added a change up. Before his first Cy Young season, he added the slider. How I was able to notice this through all the numbers, I have no idea. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1702&page=1#ixzz2T37DuKf6
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Post by sharksrog on May 11, 2013 23:42:56 GMT -5
Boly -- Whatever the reasons for his problems, for the TEAM, for the FANS, enough is enough. Fix it, or retire, or move on. Rog -- Tim would like nothing more than to fix it. I'm not sure he can, in which case he will likely move on. As for retiring, why would he? He's healthy, he's still relatively young, and he's a decent starter. As you mentioned, Tim's decline is virtually unprecedented among excellent, healthy starters in their prime years. But I think it would be foolish of him to retire. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1702&page=1#ixzz2T3AjdrjD
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Post by allenreed on May 12, 2013 9:48:31 GMT -5
Sure would. Where else is he going to make that kind of money?
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Post by klaiggeb on May 12, 2013 9:50:50 GMT -5
Boly -- Personally, I have little or no patience with Major League pitchers who can't throw strikes.
Am I being cruel? Too harsh?
Rog -- I understand what you're saying here, but Nolan Ryan had a hard time throwing strikes, and it still worked out well for him.
--boly says---
Rog, seriously... you're not going to make this argument, are you?
Nolan NEVER had great control, but by age 28 he was getting hitters out at an astounding rate, and was NOT a 5 inning pitcher.
Tim is 28 and did NOT start out his career with command issues.
Nolan did.
You're reaching here.
boly
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Post by klaiggeb on May 12, 2013 9:54:49 GMT -5
I get frusterated with Tim, just like you do Boly. I was yelling at the TV all last night. But I think he knows he's got a lack of control, I'm sure he wants to throw strikes as much as you and me want him to.
---boly says---
I know he knows it. I just no longer care because he is NOT taking steps that have fixed, or even come close to fixing the problem.
I have little patience for these type of players.
They're going to do it THEIR way come hell or high water.
Do you see ANY changes in Timmy's delivery?
I don't.
But I see one HUGE difference from his earlier, successful years: They've been showing a lot of old film of him lately. He USED to tuck that right knee tighter at the top of his delivery.
Now, it sort of swings loosely.
I'll be Righetti has seen that.
I'll bet it's been pointed out.
I'll bet no one is discussing his stride lenght.
And thus, IMHO, we don't have a solution he'll put into use.
He SHOULD have made some changes last off season.
Instead, he cut his hair, which was long over due.
Frustrated? Nah. I'm also angry at him.
He's a Major Leaguer, he should have already fixed the problem.
boly
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Post by klaiggeb on May 12, 2013 9:56:46 GMT -5
I do know that Tim's dad has said that pitchers who throw lots of change ups tend to lose velocity on their fastballs. I think that may explain why Tim has lost velocity.
---boly says---
Rog, you and I have discussed Tim's dad before, and I think HE is at the heart of the problem.
This statement is just ludicrous.
I can name tons of good, change up throwing pitchers, who didn't lose command nor velocity.
It's an easy pitch on the arm, and that's a fact.
His statement is goofy.
boly
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donk
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Post by donk on May 12, 2013 11:52:17 GMT -5
I do know that Tim's dad has said that pitchers who throw lots of change ups tend to lose velocity on their fastballs. I think that may explain why Tim has lost velocity. ---boly says--- Rog, you and I have discussed Tim's dad before, and I think HE is at the heart of the problem. This statement is just ludicrous. I can name tons of good, change up throwing pitchers, who didn't lose command nor velocity. It's an easy pitch on the arm, and that's a fact. His statement is goofy. dk..actually, I was the one that posted this statement...and it was the sayings of Robin Roberts...a fairly good pitcher...
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Post by klaiggeb on May 13, 2013 14:52:39 GMT -5
Re: Enough already « Reply #13 Yesterday at 11:52am »
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donk
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Post by donk on May 13, 2013 20:01:59 GMT -5
I think Roberts and I probably threw something akin to a palm ball..today pitchers throw more splits and circle changes...the pitch I threw was holding the ball loose with pressure on the thumb and ring or little finger.lots of arm speed but no wrist movement...I also threw a change curve ..loosely held ball and put a spin on it as it left my hand...strange, but I never had a coach to teach me pitching and I picked it up on my own...I never had a pitch clocked so I don't know what it did to my fastball(?).....Did you notice Tim's follow through turning his body and arm towards first???
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Post by klaiggeb on May 14, 2013 9:43:26 GMT -5
Did you notice Tim's follow through turning his body and arm towards first???
--boly says---
Turn towards "1st?"
I'm not following, don.
I know I picked up 2 things:
1-His leg lift/kick had his knee tighter to his body; as he used to do. 2-A bigger turn, almost showing his back to the hitter.
Still strides too long, though.
boly
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Post by Islandboagie on May 14, 2013 11:21:08 GMT -5
I saw no difference in Lincecum as far as his mechanics were concerned. After seeing these comments about his mechanics, I went back to look at footage and compare with previous starts, I still don't notice a difference with what you guys are saying, but I will yield to both of your expertise on picking up those little differences.
Either way, I think the key to Tim's outing was the same thing that's made Barry successful recently, mixing up his pitches more. Which is why I give partial credit to Posey, it wasn't just Tim's stuff, it was more the timing and variations of his stuff.
Now, I don't have any solid proof for my claims, but on Sunday he didn't have good velocity and he was still catching some hitters looking on 90 mph fastballs. Either way, I like what I saw he can build on that and maybe now work on velocity.
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Post by klaiggeb on May 14, 2013 12:37:49 GMT -5
I saw no difference in Lincecum as far as his mechanics were concerned. After seeing these comments about his mechanics, I went back to look at footage and compare with previous starts, I still don't notice a difference with what you guys are saying, but I will yield to both of your expertise on picking up those little differences.
---boly says---
Boagie; The differences I caught were small,...but having pitched, and studied pitching for so long, I believe they were significant.
They have to do with keeping the motion/delivery in rhythm and sync.
Screw up one small part, and the whole cupcake collapses.
boly
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donk
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Post by donk on May 14, 2013 23:02:17 GMT -5
Did you notice Tim's follow through turning his body and arm towards first??? --boly says--- Turn towards "1st?" I'm not following, don. I know I picked up 2 things: 1-His leg lift/kick had his knee tighter to his body; as he used to do. 2-A bigger turn, almost showing his back to the hitter. Still strides too long, though. boly dk.his follow through had his arm and upper body facing towards first ...it looked as if he was showing the batter his back after he delivered the ball......I'm still concerned over Romo in his last 2 outings....I'm not sure because I haven't seen it in slow motion, but I thought there was a slight hitch in his delivery...I hope I am wrong, but he appeared to be having a problem in his elbow.....
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Post by sharksrog on May 15, 2013 10:57:00 GMT -5
Boly -- Rog, seriously... you're not going to make this argument, are you? Nolan NEVER had great control, but by age 28 he was getting hitters out at an astounding rate, and was NOT a 5 inning pitcher. Tim is 28 and did NOT start out his career with command issues. Nolan did. You're reaching here. Rog -- Hey, I don't like pitchers who have trouble throwing strikes, either, but my point was that many pitchers DO have that problem -- at least from time to time -- and Nolan Ryan has proven it isn't impossible to have success despite it. By the way, think how great Nolan would have been had he been able to throw the ball where he wanted to. Surely he would have been the greatest ever, wouldn't he? I suspect that was the same type of pitcher as Walter Johson -- who I consider the best pitcher of all time. Walter twice led the AL in lowest walks per nine. and 11 times led in strikeouts. When I made my comment, it wasn't with Tim in mind. I guess I was merely pointing out that like the Mets, you might have given up on Ryan too soon. A pitcher who can't throw strikes can be truly frustrating. But despite seemingly walking the entire world, Ryan was already showing how hard he was to hit. Another pitcher you might have given up on was Sandy Koufax. I agree with your premise. My point though is that every pitcher -- and player -- should be judged on his own. Believe me, I've misjudged MANY players over the years. I feel better equipped to judge them now than previously in my life, but we ALL miss out on certain players. And part of that is because of broad "rules" we sometimes apply. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1702&page=1#10717#ixzz2TNPYCDMl
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Post by sharksrog on May 15, 2013 10:58:31 GMT -5
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Post by sharksrog on May 15, 2013 11:01:24 GMT -5
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Post by sharksrog on May 15, 2013 11:03:40 GMT -5
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Post by sharksrog on May 15, 2013 11:05:57 GMT -5
I do know that Tim's dad has said that pitchers who throw lots of change ups tend to lose velocity on their fastballs. I think that may explain why Tim has lost velocity. ---boly says--- Rog, you and I have discussed Tim's dad before, and I think HE is at the heart of the problem. This statement is just ludicrous. I can name tons of good, change up throwing pitchers, who didn't lose command nor velocity. Rog -- So that I can check them out, please mention some who are pitching currently. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1702&page=1#ixzz2TNUbMHiT
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Post by sharksrog on May 15, 2013 11:31:27 GMT -5
Boagie -- on Sunday he didn't have good velocity and he was still catching some hitters looking on 90 mph fastballs. Either way, I like what I saw he can build on that and maybe now work on velocity. Rog -- A very salient observation about the decreased velocity, Boagie. Although the change is somewhat smaller due to rounding, Tim's average fastball over the season dropped from 90.5 mph to 90.3 mph. As an eighth start of the season, that's a big change in a season's average. A couple more thoughts on pitch distribution: . Five Braves reached base via hit or walk. Three of those at bats lasted four or more pitches without a single secondary pitch being thrown. . Regarding the ridiculous claim that Buster Posey doesn't call low pitches in order to avoid passed balls and wild pitches: three of Tim's five swinging strikeouts came on balls in the dirt, none of which became either passed balls or wild pitches. (All three were change ups.) Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1702&page=1#ixzz2TNVTEbt7
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Post by sharksrog on May 15, 2013 11:33:04 GMT -5
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Post by sharksrog on May 15, 2013 11:35:48 GMT -5
I think two things that contributed to what was clearly Tim's best outing of the season were that his location was better more often, and the line drives he allowed were mostly caught.
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donk
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Post by donk on May 15, 2013 12:24:15 GMT -5
Boagie -- on Sunday he didn't have good velocity and he was still catching some hitters looking on 90 mph fastballs. Either way, I like what I saw he can build on that and maybe now work on velocity. Rog -- A very salient observation about the decreased velocity, Boagie. Although the change is somewhat smaller due to rounding, Tim's average fastball over the season dropped from 90.5 mph to 90.3 mph. As an eighth start of the season, that's a big change in a season's average. A couple more thoughts on pitch distribution: . Five Braves reached base via hit or walk. Three of those at bats lasted four or more pitches without a single secondary pitch being thrown. . Regarding the ridiculous claim that Buster Posey doesn't call low pitches in order to avoid passed balls and wild pitches: three of Tim's five swinging strikeouts came on balls in the dirt, none of which became either passed balls or wild pitches. (All three were change ups.) dk..the "rediculous" claim was that Posey doesn't call for the inside cut/slider to LH batters...this is typical for many 2 strike pitches....I could still catch a change up in the dirt.... First break in what some of the pitchers say about Posey..read what Zito had to say.....although he is dead wrong in saying it outside the club house....
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Post by sharksrog on May 15, 2013 14:53:40 GMT -5
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