Is Dave Righetti a Good Pitching Coach?

[sharksrog]

I'm posing a question to which there is no way for us to be sure of the answer. But Dave doesn't seem to be highly regarded here, so I thought I would bring up some evidence.

What made me think of this was hearing Chad Gaudin on KNBR today. He praised Righetti. Given that Gaudin is trying to make the roster, one wouldn't expect him to be critical.

But his response sounded heart-felt. He spoke well of Bruce Bochy as well, but he didn't seem to have the same excitement in his voice as when he discussed Dave, to whom we would assume he would be closer.

So Chad seems to truly like Righetti. What else have we seen?

. First of all, the Giants have had pretty darn good pitching for quite a while. Going back through 2001, the Giants have been in the top nine NL teams in ERA except for three seasons -- and even then they were 12th or better.

They had several seasons in which they were 1st or 2nd.

In their three "bad" seasons (2004-2006), they had starting pitchers such as Brett Tomko, Jerome Williams. Brad Hennessey, Jamey Wright and Matt Morris.

. There wasn't much in the bullpen those three years, either, but Righetti coaxed good seasons out of guys such as Jim Brower, Matt Herges, Jason Christianson, Hennessey, Tyler Walker, Jeff Fassero, Scott Munter and Mike Stanton.

. Even in the three bad seasons, the Giants never fell below the 3rd quartile, meaning they were never truly awful.


. In 2002 the Giants finished #2 in ERA despite having Ryan Jensen in the rotation and Jay Witasik and Chad Zerbe in the bullpen.

. Righetti got good work out of pitchers such as Felix Rodriguez, who didn't do much before or after he was with the Giants.

. Dave had success with Scott Eyre and Jose Mijares, both picked up on waivers.

On the negative side, Dave wasn't able to get Tim Lincecum out of his funk last season -- at least until after the All-Star game. But he did get Tim to cooperate and pitch in relief, where he was quite a weapon.

I guess what I would ask of those who don't think Righetti is a good pitching coach is what you base that opinion on. Also, did you recognize Bochy as a good manager before the 2010 postseason, when virtually his moves worked and he began to receive acclaim?

[Islandboagie]

The thing that stuck out with me about Righetti happened just recently. Madison Bumgarner's bullpen session where they fixed the issue right before he pitched in the World Series. Obviously he sees little mechanical flaws very well.

[Islandboagie]

Rog- Also, did you recognize Bochy as a good manager before the 2010 postseason, when virtually his moves worked and he began to receive acclaim?

Boagie- I think Bochy was considered the best manager in the NL West when he was with the Padres. At least, that was my opinion. I believe he out-managed Baker and Alou on multiple occasions. His winning percentage was a tick below .500 in 11 seasons with the Padres, whom had some pretty bad teams (on paper) during that period.

[sharksrog]

Rog- Also, did you recognize Bochy as a good manager before the 2010 postseason, when virtually his moves worked and he began to receive acclaim?

Boagie- I think Bochy was considered the best manager in the NL West when he was with the Padres. At least, that was my opinion. I believe he out-managed Baker and Alou on multiple occasions. His winning percentage was a tick below .500 in 11 seasons with the Padres, whom had some pretty bad teams (on paper) during that period.

Rog -- Remember how often Bochy used to get ripped here -- as recently as the 2010 regular season?

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[sharksrog]

Boagie -- The thing that stuck out with me about Righetti happened just recently. Madison Bumgarner's bullpen session where they fixed the issue right before he pitched in the World Series. Obviously he sees little mechanical flaws very well.

Rog -- Nice observation, Boagie. Perhaps Righetti will begin to get what seems to be his due here, just as Bochy did.

Again, I don't think any of us has enough visiblity to know whether Dave is a good coach or a bad one, but the evidence I can find -- and you just added to -- seems to point toward his being a good one.

If nothing else, he's surely kept his job a long time -- and has coached on two World Champions known for their pitching.

I think one of the strongest pieces of evidence for me is the list of journeyman pitchers he has helped coax good seasons out of.

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[allenreed]

I think in the case of both men, it's hard to argue with the results. When given the talent, Righetti has had an excellent staff. He has taken pitchers who haven't been especially successful elsewhere (Casilla, Vogey) and gotten pretty good results.
Bochy keeps the boat from rocking, and gets everyone rowing in the same direction. He relates well to his players, and keeps a firm hand while not being abrasive. What more can you ask from a manager? Strategically, he uses his bullpen well, and seem to be able to put players in spots where they have a good chance to succeed.
An added bonus with Bruce, listening to his post game pressers are an excellent way to fall asleep after home night games.

[Islandboagie]

Rog -- Remember how often Bochy used to get ripped here -- as recently as the 2010 regular season?

Boagie- I don't recall anyone just ripping Bochy, but many have ripped the decisions he's made at times. I used to bitch all the time when he had Aaron Rowand lead off.

Just recently Boly ripped Bochy's decision to make Lincecum the #3 starter.

I ripped Bochy plenty in 2011 for playing Orlando Cabrera and Tejada over Crawford and I ripped Sabean for aquiring them.

There are plenty of times I've disagreed with Bochy, as I did with Baker, and Alou...The difference here is that Bochy often has proven me wrong, whereas Alou and Baker never did.

[sharksrog]

Rog -- Remember how often Bochy used to get ripped here -- as recently as the 2010 regular season?

Boagie- I don't recall anyone just ripping Bochy, but many have ripped the decisions he's made at times.

Rog -- That's it.

Boagie -- I used to bitch all the time when he had Aaron Rowand lead off.

Rog -- My position on criticizing managers for moves they make has long been twofold:

First, there are sometimes factors involved in the decision we're not aware of.

Second, the chances of success with one strategy rarely differ much from the chances of success of another. In other words, in reality, we're usually picking nits.

I'm not sure I liked the idea of Rowand leading off either. You know how I like leadoff men to get on base, and Aaron was deficient in that regard. But a few things I should point out:

. Which guy would you rather have leading off for you? .288/.338/.440/.778 or .294/.341/.468/.809? The first guy is Angel Pagan last season. The second guy is Rowand as a leadoff man the first season he hit leadoff for the Giants.

. How about .264 vs. .223? The former is Rowand's batting average as a leadoff man in the three seasons he batted leadoff. The latter is his average those three seasons while he wasn't leading off.

. Clearly Rowand's success was extremely important to the Giants. They suffered badly from it and wound up releasing him with more than a year to go on his 5/$60 contract. One of the most important jobs of a manager is to put his players in positions where they can succeed. Clearly Rowand succeeded more -- or at least failed less -- when hitting leadoff than hitting elsewhere those last three seasons.

Given how desparate the Giants were to have Rowand live up to his contract -- which might well have put them in the playoffs in three of his years with the Giants instead of only one (and you have noticed, haven't you, that recently when the Giants make the playoffs they win the World Series) -- it may be hard to argue that Bochy's putting Rowand into the best position to succeed was making a mistake.

Should Rowand have been leading off? I can certainly make just as good an argument the other way. But that's the point. What we criticize managers for may have had as good a chance of succeeding as our own strategy -- or at least close to it. That is, of course, if we even know all the circumstances that went into the manager's decision.


Boagie -- Just recently Boly ripped Bochy's decision to make Lincecum the #3 starter.

Rog -- And from an emotional standpoint, he was right on the money. As far as what it meant to the team, not so much.

Bochy's best quality as a manager is quite possibly handling teams and the men who make them up. He wasn't likely to make a decision that was going to shake up a pitcher -- such as Vogelsong. Certainly he made a tough decision with Lincecum last postseason that worked out extremely well.

Bochy didn't actually make Ryan his #5 pitcher instead of #3, #2 or even a semi-defensible #1. (Who was clearly the Giants' ace in this past postseason?) What he was doing was putting Ryan 5th in the rotation, not costing him a single start and giving him more time to get ready for the season if his workload in the WBC worked strangely for him.

Let's suppose Bochy had decided to put Barry Zito third in the rotation. Would that have made him the Giants' #3 starter? If Zito had opened the season instead of Matt Cain, would that have made Barry #1? (If it would and then Barry could pitch up to it, I'm all for it!)

Boly's reaction was Boly being Boly. Gotta love the guy!

Boagie -- I ripped Bochy plenty in 2011 for playing Orlando Cabrera and Tejada over Crawford and I ripped Sabean for aquiring them.

Rog -- That's a tough one. Crawford played over half the games after he got called up. He was hitting .190 at the trade deadline (and finished the season at .204). That came after he opened the season at San Jose before being moved to Fresno and then to the Giants.

I think even you would admit the Giants were forced to rush Brandon, who was hitting .234 at Fresno when he was called up.

Tejada rarely played over Brandon. Once Crawford was brought up, Miguel played mostly at third base for the injured Pablo Sandoval.

When the Giants traded for Cabrera, they pretty much gave him the position, hoping what had once been a pretty good shortstop still had something in the tank. When it became by the first of September that he didn't, Bochy more or less platooned the two the rest of the way.

Boagie -- There are plenty of times I've disagreed with Bochy, as I did with Baker, and Alou...The difference here is that Bochy often has proven me wrong, whereas Alou and Baker never did.

Rog -- I don't think Bruce proved you wrong about any of his decisions you questioned. Neither did Baker nor Alou (both considered to be good managers in their own rights).

Just as you probably didn't prove them wrong very often. It is fun to argue about which tactics would have worked better, but in the end, there was probably about as good a chance of one strategy working (given the circumstances) as the other.

Don't forget that making the "right" move doesn't always work out, just as making the "wrong" one sometimes is effective.

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[Islandboagie]

Boagie- I don't recall anyone just ripping Bochy, but many have ripped the decisions he's made at times.

Rog -- That's it.

Boagie- Just wanted to clarify, I don't think anyoine on this board has just ripped Bochy for being a bad manager, they've ripped some decisions they didn't agree with. If anyone thought Bochy was a bad manager I'd strongly disagree with them.

Rog -- My position on criticizing managers for moves they make has long been twofold:

First, there are sometimes factors involved in the decision we're not aware of.

Boagie- All of us here are knowledgeable enough to pick up on alot of those factors when we discuss it. As a board we figured out the reasoning behind Vogelsong being #5 faster than Baggerly did, and Baggerly has access to more resources.

Rog- I'm not sure I liked the idea of Rowand leading off either. You know how I like leadoff men to get on base, and Aaron was deficient in that regard. But a few things I should point out:

Boagie: I think you already pointed out the most important part of being a leadoff hitter, getting on base, which Rowand didn't do. What he did have was a fair amount of power which was wasted in the leadoff spot.

Rog- . Clearly Rowand's success was extremely important to the Giants. They suffered badly from it and wound up releasing him with more than a year to go on his 5/$60 contract. One of the most important jobs of a manager is to put his players in positions where they can succeed. Clearly Rowand succeeded more -- or at least failed less -- when hitting leadoff than hitting elsewhere those last three seasons.

Boagie- I've never liked the idea of playing the large contract players just because the team invested in them. The GM has his job and the manager has his. The manager's prime responsibilty is to put the best 8 guys out there. From about the middle part of 2010 Bochy has been much better at doing that, which is a big reason why we've had success since then, in my opinion.

Rog -- I don't think Bruce proved you wrong about any of his decisions you questioned. Neither did Baker nor Alou (both considered to be good managers in their own rights).

Boagie- I didn't include the ones I was wrong about.

Last post-season I wanted Lincecum to start and Vogelsong to work from the pen. I was way wrong there.

You know my thoughts on getting and playing Pagan.

I can't think of any more specific instances off the top of my head, but I know I've been wrong on alot of in-game strategy that's worked well for the Giants.

[sharksrog]

Boagie- All of us here are knowledgeable enough to pick up on alot of those factors when we discuss it. As a board we figured out the reasoning behind Vogelsong being #5 faster than Baggerly did, and Baggerly has access to more resources.

Rog -- You did a great job analyzing the rotation situation, Boagie, but wasn't Baggs right on top of it as well?


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[sharksrog]

Boagie: I think you already pointed out the most important part of being a leadoff hitter, getting on base, which Rowand didn't do. What he did have was a fair amount of power which was wasted in the leadoff spot.

Rog -- Your points are good, but there may have been valid reasons for Bruce to bat Rowand leadoff. For one, it got Aaron away from any pressure involved with hitting in the middle of the order. The Giants didn't have a prototypical leadoff man for much of that time, although Andres Torres did a nice job there in 2010.

I suspect more than anything else, it was about trying to get Rowand going, somehow, some way.

But since I wasn't there, I really can't say for sure.


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[sharksrog]

Boagie- I've never liked the idea of playing the large contract players just because the team invested in them.

Rog -- I don't like it either. But I do think Rowand had more potential than most of those who might otherwise have played. At least he had SHOWN he could do it.

Look at the other Giants outfielders while Aaron was here. Not too many of them were great shakes.

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