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Post by sharksrog on Feb 18, 2013 10:05:37 GMT -5
Boagie and the East Coast biasers will be happy to know that Brandon Crawford and the Mariners' Brendan Ryan got play on MLB Network's "The top 10 shortstops right now."
No, they didn't make the top 10, but each was noted as a top defender on the come. Ryan's glove was said to be good enough that it actually overcame a sub-.200 batting average. Crawford's glove was also considered very good, and Larry Bowa said he believed Brandon would hit.
So now, among 11 evaluated "positions" including reliever and manager, the Giants wound up with two #1's, one #2 -- and every "position" mentioned at least among the "honorable mentions" except for first base and left field.
Left field is obvious, since the Giants don't even have a clear starter. And even there, former Giant Melky Cabrera was ranked #8.
So first base is the only position where a Giant or recent Giant wasn't mentioned. There, I would say it isn't so much because Brandon Belt isn't decent and doesn't have a chance to become very good. I think it is primarily because first base is such a hitters' position that the competition is chilling.
And since Brandon has thus far shown less power than the prototypical first baseman and has a broader range of talents than the typical pound it out type of player there, Brandon may be a little underrated.
Or, hey, maybe it's just the East Coast Bias striking yet again.
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donk
New Member
Posts: 23
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Post by donk on Feb 18, 2013 13:39:33 GMT -5
Ellis, the Dodgers' catcher has been raving about Crawford...and he things he will hit,too....where were all these guys when he was hitting below .200 and I said he would hit...
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Post by sharksrog on Feb 19, 2013 23:29:36 GMT -5
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Post by Islandboagie on Feb 20, 2013 10:28:09 GMT -5
Don -- Ellis, the Dodgers' catcher has been raving about Crawford...and he things he will hit,too....where were all these guys when he was hitting below .200 and I said he would hit...
Rog -- Can't speak for the others, but I was right here saying he wouldn't. I hope you're right -- but I wouldn't bet on it.
Boagie- Define wouldn't hit? Are you saying he won't ever bat in the middle of the lineup. or are you saying that he wouldn't be good enough to stick at the major league level? I would assume since you say you've been talking about this since his minor league days that you were talking about the latter. In which case you'd be wrong.
I agree Crawford will likely never be a large producer with the bat, you don't need to be a scout to see that. But as far as proving he can hold his own against major league pitching I think he's already proven that he can.
In fairness, Crawford still needs to improve to solidify a starting everyday job or he'll likely be platooned alot. He needs to cut down on the strikeouts and find ways to get on base more, via the base on balls or hitting, and just putting the ball in play more. I think he can do all this and perhaps generate a little more power, which would make him a solid starting shortstop defensively, and offensively.
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Post by sharksrog on Feb 20, 2013 13:09:25 GMT -5
Boagie- Define wouldn't hit? Are you saying he won't ever bat in the middle of the lineup. or are you saying that he wouldn't be good enough to stick at the major league level? I would assume since you say you've been talking about this since his minor league days that you were talking about the latter. In which case you'd be wrong. Rog -- Somewhere in between. Basically, I was saying he wouldn't be an average hitter for a position player. I suspect he may not become even an average major league hitter including pitchers. Boagie -- I agree Crawford will likely never be a large producer with the bat, you don't need to be a scout to see that. But as far as proving he can hold his own against major league pitching I think he's already proven that he can. Rog -- To put this in context, I made my prediction when Brandon was hitting .371 with a 1.000+ OPS and had just gotten promoted from San Jose to AA. Given how well he had hit at San Jose, I think it was a fairly bold prediction at the time. As far as Brandon's "holding his own" against major league pitching, it comes down to how one defines "holding his own." Boagie -- In fairness, Crawford still needs to improve to solidify a starting everyday job or he'll likely be platooned alot. He needs to cut down on the strikeouts and find ways to get on base more, via the base on balls or hitting, and just putting the ball in play more. I think he can do all this and perhaps generate a little more power, which would make him a solid starting shortstop defensively, and offensively. Rog -- I think Brandon's glove is likely to get him a fair amount of playing time as long as he hits .230 or .240. More than anything else, I would like to see him learn to get on base enough that he more frequently saves the pitcher from leading off the next inning. I can't remember if it was John Hart or who, but someone on the Top 10 Shortstops Right Now show talked about how the shortstop position had evolved. The talk was that back in the '70's a guy like Belanger could hit .225 and be OK because of his glove (which was probably even more exceptional than Brandon's). Now, it was said, some offense is expected from the position as well. I think the big facet of Brandon's game is that his glove has proven to be at least as good as expected. I have mentioned that at least until Brandon was brought up, many considered him to be only the 2nd-best shortstop glove in the organization. If Ehire Adrianza is indeed a better fielder than Brandon, I hope Ehire's anemic bat proves good enough for us to see him play a lot of shortstop in the majors. My guess, though, is that Brandon's fielding has moved around Adrianza -- if it was truly lower to begin with. I suspect Randy has seen both Crawford and Adrianza play. Which one's glove do you like better, Randy? Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1564&page=1#9021#ixzz2LSlEVNNq
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Feb 20, 2013 14:15:19 GMT -5
I have to admit that while playing in the CAL League, I liked both defensively very much, although I will say I liked Adrianza's glove just a bit better. But now that Brandon has performed at the big league level and on its highest stage, the World Series, I have to say he's proven himself to be better even than I expected.
~Dood
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Post by sharksrog on Feb 20, 2013 14:32:07 GMT -5
I found your comment to be very insightful here, Randy. So you could see why scouts liked Ehire's defense even better than Brandon's.
Two more questions I would like to ask you:
. First, what were the aspects of fielding where you liked Ehire better than Brandon and vice versa?
. Second, do you think Brandon has improved enough that today he has bridged that slight gap you saw between him and Ehire that Brandon is actually the better of the two today?
Actually, let me sneak in a third question: Ehire is really slappy as a hitter, but he does possess a good knowledge of the strike zone. He's never hit anything approaching the .371 Brandon hit in San Jose. What do you see Ehire's potential as a hitter to be, and how much of that potential do you think he will be able to achieve?
Oh, and that sparks two final questions: Do you think Joe Panik is a good enough shortstop defensively to start there in the majors, and what do you think of those who say that he is too slow to bat 2nd, which otherwise would seem a great spot in the order for him?
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donk
New Member
Posts: 23
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Post by donk on Feb 21, 2013 2:08:46 GMT -5
last August and September, with the pressure of playing for the "flag", Crawford hit .285/.340/.384...I think it was a better indicator than to go back 2 years and worry about his K/BB in A ball... if you were watching the guy, he changed his stance and swing.....the only problem with Crawford is the same one I had with Posey originally, he does his best hitting early in the game...we will have to see if it was a stamina problem...or a pressure problem...I think he still has a probblem with taking outside pitches...the umps continue to call it against him even though the replays with the strike zone shows that Crawford got robbed on many of these calls.....he showed me a real quick bat on the high,inside pitch...including that key triple he hit in the 3rd game of the WS
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Post by Islandboagie on Feb 21, 2013 11:43:15 GMT -5
Rog- As far as Brandon's "holding his own" against major league pitching, it comes down to how one defines "holding his own."
Boagie- Good point.
I would say hitting 26 doubles, 3 triples, 4 homeruns, knocking in 45 RBIs primarily batting 8th is holding your own. Especially if you're at a defensive position and playing in your first full season in the majors. Crawford isn't the best hitter in baseball, obviously, but I believe his bat has not been the liability that you've predicted.
Last year Brandon drove in more RBIs per at-bat than Omar Vizquel ever did with the Giants. Crawford hit 4 homeruns last year which tied Omar's highest season total with the Giants.
Remember, this is Brandon's first full year, so I predict him to get better. In Omar's first full year his ops was .534, Brandon's was .653.
I don't mean to beat up on Omar here, of course Omar had some decent offensive seasons, which I guess is my point. Just because Brandon can't put up attractive numbers, doesn't mean he can't contribute.
By the way, Omar's career minor league average was .241, while his career major league average was .272.
Just some things to think about when judging the offensive production of good defensive shortstops.
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Post by sharksrog on Feb 21, 2013 12:40:58 GMT -5
Don -- last August and September, with the pressure of playing for the "flag", Crawford hit .285/.340/.384...I think it was a better indicator than to go back 2 years and worry about his K/BB in A ball... Rog -- I fully understand what you're saying here. I hope you're right. Don -- if you were watching the guy, he changed his stance and swing..... Rog -- I'm guessing that he changed his stance and swing whether I was watching or not. Don -- the only problem with Crawford is the same one I had with Posey originally, he does his best hitting early in the game...we will have to see if it was a stamina problem...or a pressure problem... Rog -- Almost everyone hits better early in the game now than late. Late in the game they're facing the most effective pitchers in baseball -- the short-inning guys. Don -- I think he still has a probblem with taking outside pitches...the umps continue to call it against him even though the replays with the strike zone shows that Crawford got robbed on many of these calls..... Rog -- Why would umpires call pitches farther outside to Crawford than to other lefty hitters? Don -- he showed me a real quick bat on the high,inside pitch...including that key triple he hit in the 3rd game of the WS Rog -- Brandon was indeed turning well on the ball late in the season. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1564&page=1#9037#ixzz2LYYNjglo
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