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Post by klaiggeb on Sept 29, 2023 23:10:03 GMT -5
You know, it doesn't matter who the manager of the team is these morons cannot hit.
They just can't facing a pitcher with an almost six era again, they have two hits and two runs. Finishing out the year the way they started the second half. Double plays pop ups all at the most inconvenient times. They just can't hit.
I remember the 1962 mets, and even they weren't this bad
The only redeeming factor in this game is that GK is in with us anymore. But his Aura lingers on
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Post by pachyderm on Sept 30, 2023 8:30:34 GMT -5
Who ran the show last night?
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Post by klaiggeb on Sept 30, 2023 8:47:18 GMT -5
Correa. A Kapler clone
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Post by pachyderm on Sept 30, 2023 8:51:39 GMT -5
ugh  We really can't hit... |
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Post by reedonly on Sept 30, 2023 9:08:46 GMT -5
Kapler was about half the problems. There is enough rot in the system from top to bottom. Definitely not done and FZ said this is step one. Hopefully no Kai Correa. Chronicle just put up a list of possibles but it is behind a paywall.
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Post by klaiggeb on Sept 30, 2023 10:31:54 GMT -5
Kapler was about half the problems. There is enough rot in the system from top to bottom. Definitely not done and FZ said this is step one. Hopefully no Kai Correa. Chronicle just put up a list of possibles but it is behind a paywall.
I mean, seriously? Can we?
I would argue, no; we can't.
He picked a buddy.
Mistake.
He picked a friend.
Mistake.
He picked someone who had failed miserably the last time he was flying from the front seat; a guy who had lost control of the team and badly mismanaged his pitching staff.
I didn't like it when we hired Farhan.
I hated it when we hired Kapler
I thought they were both TERRIBLE choices; and they were.
Farhan has never shown any clue as to what makes a good leader or a how to construct a clubhouse, choosing instead, to be driven by sabermetrics and little else.
And I don't see that changing.
And...AND!!!! if he picks someone from in-house, Correa, Hallberg or even Wotus, to me, that will be the final nail in the Giants collective future coffin.
Now, Bob Melvin MIGHT not be the right guy...BUT
He finished first 4 times: 2003, 2007,2012 & 2013
4 times his teams won 90+ games
If you count the covid season, he's finished first 5 times.
6 times his teams have finished 2nd.
That's not a bad resume at all.
In 2012 he won 94 games with a mediocre to decent line up and average to below average starters
In 2013 he won 96 games with a much better line up, and slightly better starters.
In ALL OF HIS YEARS in Oakland, he was hampered by what I consider a poor, GM and NO PAYROLL.
He was first in 2007 with Arizona, with a team that, outside of Young had LITTLE power.
And a not particularly good starting staff. They were...okay.
But they finished first.
IF that's a bad choice.
IF that's a guy who can't manage...well, I don't know what else to say.
Yes, he failed in SD... but so did ALL OF HIS PREDECESSORS.
And I place the majority of blame on Machado.
From what I've pieced together, he doesn't hustle and he's not a team player.
He plays for Manny.
Add other egos like Tatis and a couple of others... and what you've got is a stale, flavorless cake that's hard to swallow
Just my thoughts
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Post by Islandboagie on Sept 30, 2023 14:35:34 GMT -5
That's the problem though, Boly. Bob Melvin is exactly like Gabe Kapler. They both take orders, they don't demand to have control of the team or the clubhouse.
In Oakland, having that kind of manager works, because Billy Beane has control and he can and will be the enforcer.
This nonsense with Joc Pederson and his card game, and playing music in the clubhouse after a loss reminds me of the scene in Moneyball when Billy Beane, played by Brad Pitt, came into the clubhouse and smashed the stereo with a bat. I don't know if that really happened exactly how it did in the movie, but I suspect there's some truth to that.
Kapler allowed the music to play, my guess is Melvin too would probably allow that..perhaps not, but I can guarantee you Posey wouldn't. I would much rather have a guarantee than a question mark.
Farhan Zaidi is not an enforcer, he doesn't involve himself like Beane does, nor does he know what should and shouldn't happen in clubhouses.
Farhan never played. Beane at least has some knowledge of the game and can make lineup and pitching staff decisions.
What Farhan needs is someone who can lead, and demands to have control of the team so Farhan and his scouts can focus on finding talent, which I happen to think they're still competent at doing.
Melvin is not that guy. I question whether Wotus is since he too allowed the card games and the music to play. I still have to maintain Posey is our best option.
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Ya know...
Sept 30, 2023 15:48:21 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by klaiggeb on Sept 30, 2023 15:48:21 GMT -5
Long as I can remember, in an all the books I've read about baseball Seasons Baseball games and so forth, the clubhouse always had people playing cards and always listening to music.
I even go back as far as Alvin dark. He was outraged that the Latinos wanted to play Latin music in the clubhouse. And he demanded that they stop.
Honestly, since the season is $162 games long, I don't think it's realistic for players to be in the clubhouse constantly thinking and focusing on the game prior to the game. That would mentally wear me down, and it's hard to love the game much more than I do.
Like I said in the post, I don't know if Bob Melvin is the guy, but I agree with you I want a hard nose. Someone like boch who didn't put up with any crap.
If you remember, during the season I was saying I wanted a manager who would enforce his will, and GK wasn't that guy
Most importantly for me is, that we do not go in-house and get another GK clone.
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Post by reedonly on Sept 30, 2023 20:15:43 GMT -5
Card games and music have been going on in clubhouses over a hundred years and ordinarily it would not be a problem. The problem is when it becomes "near-zealotry" about the card games or getting too blase after tough or key losses. I think Webb was most bothered by a 3-2 loss to the Rockies. That was 8IP, 1 run, walkoff loss. If they were playing before or after that one, its a problem. Also, I heard about whiskey shots in the clubhouse
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Ya know...
Sept 30, 2023 21:34:51 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by klaiggeb on Sept 30, 2023 21:34:51 GMT -5
You summed it up quite nicely. When cards are music become a distraction, and become the focus, rather than just being used as relaxation there's an issue.
This reminds me of the problems our players had with AJ Pierzynski when he was with us years ago. He was more concerned with playing cards than taking BP and getting ready for the game
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Post by Islandboagie on Oct 1, 2023 12:47:02 GMT -5
I understand music and card games are a part of the clubhouse atmosphere. I should've explained my point in more detail before. The problem I have is that unknown sources said it was really the focus before and after the games. Working out, and being students of the game took a back seat. This was brought up by players/and or staff during a period where the Giants were "trying" to fight to stay in a playoff race. That's 100% unacceptable.
Also, the song choice "don't worry about a thing" after losses was also in a sense mocking the Giants losing. These things were done because there was no accountability in the clubhouse. Obviously this falls mainly on Kapler, but for guys like Pederson (who should know better) to be an orchestrator of these activities is also appalling.
Finally, 100 years ago nobody was making 20 million a season to play baseball, even 30 years ago nobody was making 20 million a season to play baseball. That's about how much Joc made this year, being a platoon player and part time DH..That's nearly three times what he has ever made before. He repaid the Giants by showing up out of shape, and by being a terrible example in the clubhouse.
We've had some bad contracts before that people talk about. The Zito contract is often discussed as one of the worst, although Giants fans know he made up for a lot of that in 2012. Samardjiza is up there, Desclafani has been a disaster. With some of those in mind..I think this season, what Joc got paid, and what he gave us back, could be the worst one year we've ever seen (not counting injuries.)
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Post by klaiggeb on Oct 1, 2023 13:16:01 GMT -5
Heard or read somewhere that they're thinking of bringing Joc back. I Can't Believe Management would be that dumb. Wait a minute, considering who's in charge, yes
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Post by klaiggeb on Oct 1, 2023 13:16:35 GMT -5
And left out the word I can
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Post by reedonly on Oct 1, 2023 13:17:21 GMT -5
Joc got GK fired so that was a positive
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Post by klaiggeb on Oct 1, 2023 14:49:59 GMT -5
That's a good point. So for the fans,Joc didn't know it, but he did his job
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Post by reedonly on Oct 1, 2023 17:44:00 GMT -5
A few weeks ago, I mentioned that I was rooting for them to lose because that would be the only way to get rid of Kapler and/or Zaidi. 9-19 in September was a textbook definition of faceplant and Joc getting Kapler fired was outstanding.
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Post by reedonly on Oct 1, 2023 17:45:24 GMT -5
Heard or read somewhere that they're thinking of bringing Joc back. I Can't Believe Management would be that dumb. Wait a minute, considering who's in charge, yes Hopefully, since Joc got GK canned, they've probably reconsidered his negative effect on a clubhouse. |
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Post by reedonly on Oct 1, 2023 17:47:43 GMT -5
Boly: Like I said in the post, I don't know if Bob Melvin is the guy, but I agree with you I want a hard nose. Someone like boch who didn't put up with any crap.
Showalter is now available.
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Post by klaiggeb on Oct 1, 2023 22:06:15 GMT -5
Buck has a great reputation, but I've never thought much of the guy..
Frankly, I never understood what all the hullabaloo was about concerning him. It's like Joe Maddon, another guy that gets all this hype I just don't see the reason for it.
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Post by reedonly on Oct 2, 2023 6:30:15 GMT -5
Showalter is the 21st century version of Gene Mauch. Most successful manager who has never won a pennant.
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Post by reedonly on Oct 2, 2023 10:00:32 GMT -5
Kapler was about half the problems. There is enough rot in the system from top to bottom. Definitely not done and FZ said this is step one. Hopefully no Kai Correa. Chronicle just put up a list of possibles but it is behind a paywall.
I mean, seriously? Can we?
I would argue, no; we can't.
He picked a buddy.
Mistake.
He picked a friend.
Mistake.
He picked someone who had failed miserably the last time he was flying from the front seat; a guy who had lost control of the team and badly mismanaged his pitching staff.
I didn't like it when we hired Farhan.
I hated it when we hired Kapler
I thought they were both TERRIBLE choices; and they were.
Farhan has never shown any clue as to what makes a good leader or a how to construct a clubhouse, choosing instead, to be driven by sabermetrics and little else.
And I don't see that changing.
And...AND!!!! if he picks someone from in-house, Correa, Hallberg or even Wotus, to me, that will be the final nail in the Giants collective future coffin.
Now, Bob Melvin MIGHT not be the right guy...BUT
He finished first 4 times: 2003, 2007,2012 & 2013
4 times his teams won 90+ games
If you count the covid season, he's finished first 5 times.
6 times his teams have finished 2nd.
That's not a bad resume at all.
In 2012 he won 94 games with a mediocre to decent line up and average to below average starters
In 2013 he won 96 games with a much better line up, and slightly better starters.
In ALL OF HIS YEARS in Oakland, he was hampered by what I consider a poor, GM and NO PAYROLL.
He was first in 2007 with Arizona, with a team that, outside of Young had LITTLE power.
And a not particularly good starting staff. They were...okay.
But they finished first.
IF that's a bad choice.
IF that's a guy who can't manage...well, I don't know what else to say.
Yes, he failed in SD... but so did ALL OF HIS PREDECESSORS.
And I place the majority of blame on Machado.
From what I've pieced together, he doesn't hustle and he's not a team player.
He plays for Manny.
Add other egos like Tatis and a couple of others... and what you've got is a stale, flavorless cake that's hard to swallow
Just my thoughts
I think Zaidi is going to be really scrutinized and he is going to have ownership looking over his shoulder, especially by Buster Posey. The one thing I fear is that Zaidi might do a hail Mary and try to save his job with a Big Splash that might affect the team for years to come in the wrong way. |
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Post by klaiggeb on Oct 2, 2023 12:08:44 GMT -5
You are reading my mind, Reed!!!!
And I mean seriously reading it!
If the moron does this, it basically means he LIED to everyone about building a team from home grown products being the best way.
IF he does this, it sets back the kids... what? 2...3 years?
Let's all hope Buster says NO!
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Post by klaiggeb on Oct 2, 2023 12:10:43 GMT -5
As a Long Time Ram fan, I'm a 49er HATER!
But I KNEW, KNEW when they hired Lynch, it was a brilliant move.
I'm thinking the same might soon been said about Buster being an owner.
An guy with actual BASEBALL SMARTS in charge!
What a concept!
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Post by reedonly on Oct 2, 2023 14:52:43 GMT -5
Kapler was about half the problems. There is enough rot in the system from top to bottom. Definitely not done and FZ said this is step one. Hopefully no Kai Correa. Chronicle just put up a list of possibles but it is behind a paywall.
I mean, seriously? Can we?
I would argue, no; we can't.
He picked a buddy.
Mistake.
He picked a friend.
Mistake.
He picked someone who had failed miserably the last time he was flying from the front seat; a guy who had lost control of the team and badly mismanaged his pitching staff.
I didn't like it when we hired Farhan.
I hated it when we hired Kapler
I thought they were both TERRIBLE choices; and they were.
Farhan has never shown any clue as to what makes a good leader or a how to construct a clubhouse, choosing instead, to be driven by sabermetrics and little else.
And I don't see that changing.
And...AND!!!! if he picks someone from in-house, Correa, Hallberg or even Wotus, to me, that will be the final nail in the Giants collective future coffin.
Now, Bob Melvin MIGHT not be the right guy...BUT
He finished first 4 times: 2003, 2007,2012 & 2013
4 times his teams won 90+ games
If you count the covid season, he's finished first 5 times.
6 times his teams have finished 2nd.
That's not a bad resume at all.
In 2012 he won 94 games with a mediocre to decent line up and average to below average starters
In 2013 he won 96 games with a much better line up, and slightly better starters.
In ALL OF HIS YEARS in Oakland, he was hampered by what I consider a poor, GM and NO PAYROLL.
He was first in 2007 with Arizona, with a team that, outside of Young had LITTLE power.
And a not particularly good starting staff. They were...okay.
But they finished first.
IF that's a bad choice.
IF that's a guy who can't manage...well, I don't know what else to say.
Yes, he failed in SD... but so did ALL OF HIS PREDECESSORS.
And I place the majority of blame on Machado.
From what I've pieced together, he doesn't hustle and he's not a team player.
He plays for Manny.
Add other egos like Tatis and a couple of others... and what you've got is a stale, flavorless cake that's hard to swallow
Just my thoughts
When he chose Kapler, Zaidi pretty much had free reign. Now that his job is in trouble, ownership needs to step off and co-sign any major decisions. What is troubling to me is now he finally realizes “I know I have to think about things differently”. The churn was supposed to narrow the talent gap between the Giants and Dodgers and instead has grown much wider. Maybe FZ needs to see where analytics and data has flaws and not worship the analytic idol? Only now he sees that the methodology may not work? Dude, you had five years already. |
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Post by klaiggeb on Oct 2, 2023 17:01:01 GMT -5
At this point, can we really trust Farhan to pick the right guy?
I mean, seriously? Can we?
I would argue, no; we can't.
He picked a buddy.
Mistake.
He picked a friend.
Mistake.
He picked someone who had failed miserably the last time he was flying from the front seat; a guy who had lost control of the team and badly mismanaged his pitching staff.
I didn't like it when we hired Farhan.
I hated it when we hired Kapler
I thought they were both TERRIBLE choices; and they were.
Farhan has never shown any clue as to what makes a good leader or a how to construct a clubhouse, choosing instead, to be driven by sabermetrics and little else.
And I don't see that changing.
And...AND!!!! if he picks someone from in-house, Correa, Hallberg or even Wotus, to me, that will be the final nail in the Giants collective future coffin.
Now, Bob Melvin MIGHT not be the right guy...BUT
He finished first 4 times: 2003, 2007,2012 & 2013
4 times his teams won 90+ games
If you count the covid season, he's finished first 5 times.
6 times his teams have finished 2nd.
That's not a bad resume at all.
In 2012 he won 94 games with a mediocre to decent line up and average to below average starters
In 2013 he won 96 games with a much better line up, and slightly better starters.
In ALL OF HIS YEARS in Oakland, he was hampered by what I consider a poor, GM and NO PAYROLL.
He was first in 2007 with Arizona, with a team that, outside of Young had LITTLE power.
And a not particularly good starting staff. They were...okay.
But they finished first.
IF that's a bad choice.
IF that's a guy who can't manage...well, I don't know what else to say.
Yes, he failed in SD... but so did ALL OF HIS PREDECESSORS.
And I place the majority of blame on Machado.
From what I've pieced together, he doesn't hustle and he's not a team player.
He plays for Manny.
Add other egos like Tatis and a couple of others... and what you've got is a stale, flavorless cake that's hard to swallow
Just my thoughts
When he chose Kapler, Zaidi pretty much had free reign. Now that his job is in trouble, ownership needs to step off and co-sign any major decisions. What is troubling to me is now he finally realizes “I know I have to think about things differently”. The churn was supposed to narrow the talent gap between the Giants and Dodgers and instead has grown much wider. Maybe FZ needs to see where analytics and data has flaws and not worship the analytic idol? Only now he sees that the methodology may not work? Dude, you had five years already.
To actually CONSIDER that analytics have flaws!
Wow!
And this is where I really hope Buster has a TON of influence and impact.
I will give him credit for one thing, Reed. He REALLY built up our farm system.
I know the kids still have a lot to prove, but honestly, I would love to see this group given a chance in ST.
3B-Casey
SS-Luciano
CF-Meckler/Fitz depending upon the pitcher where Fitz is needed to play that day.
OR
3B-Casey
SS-Luciano
LF-Meckler
CF-Fitz/
Now, when you add Thairo to that mix, that's 4 guys who can run.
I'd LOVE to have seen Ramos do ANYTHING... but he really didn't, and that's disappointing.
Seems to tear it up in the spring... but not when it counts after the season starts.
That being the case, maybe we hang on to Yaz and Hannigar.
Wade isn't slow, I make him above average but certainly faster than Hannigar.
I don't mind him at 1B...BUT, if Farhan wants to make a splash, 1B would be the place to do it, IMHO
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Post by reedonly on Oct 2, 2023 17:08:52 GMT -5
Free agent splash aside from Ohtani and Bellinger is in starting pitching.
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Post by klaiggeb on Oct 2, 2023 18:49:51 GMT -5
Cody has played a lot of first base, then again why would you want to come here and lose home runs?
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Post by reedonly on Oct 2, 2023 20:07:08 GMT -5
This is the quote that bothers me:
“We want to have a product that our fans are excited about, a product that our fans want to come to the ballpark to see,” Zaidi said. “I recognize that. That’s what ownership wants to see.”
Zaidi knows it all starts with him.
“Being open and flexible to different ideas, different perspectives, is something I am going to have to take going forward,” he said, “and I think as an organization, we’re going to have to do the same.”
Good grief. He's been here five years churning the margins and now he's figured this out? This does not inspire much confidence, to be honest. I'm not sure if the principal owners understood, either.
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Post by klaiggeb on Oct 3, 2023 9:45:15 GMT -5
When you are locked into one mindset, and I believe HE IS, it's hard to see ANY OTHER perspective. What concerns the crap outta me is an article I read today that says that SINCE OUR FARM SYSTEM IS NOW SO strong...we have the pieces TO TRADE SOME OF IT AWAY FOR... THAT tells me that the in house build is likely to end; that it'll be a Brian Reynolds thing all over again. That implies that they'll move Whisenhunt or Schmitt or even Luciano... The article also said that they want a player, a big time player, to make the other 8 in the line up stronger. HORSE CRAP! Here's a partial quote from the article, I've pasted the link to the entire article below "Zaidi's first offseason in charge of the organization was highlighted by the pursuit of Bryce Harper, but he still hasn't landed his superstar, the player who makes life easier for eight other hitters. I'm NOT buying into THAT lie. Ownership has PROVEN all they want to do is compete...JUST COMPETE, and sell tickets. Buster, if you're reading this, don't let that happen! Please! www.nbcsportsbayarea.com/mlb/san-francisco-giants/2023-mlb-season-what-went-wrong/1659597/ |
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Post by reedonly on Oct 3, 2023 14:37:34 GMT -5
The deadline they set was to get a manager in before the start of free agency. By the end of this week, they will start to sort out internal candidates and external candidates next week. Note that some candidates are in playoffs so they probably will not reach out until later. Fz did not say much for his exit interview.
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