Oh, No...

[klaiggeb]

Just saw that Junis is starting tonight.

Part of me thinks it's already a loss because Manaea or Wood is likely to follow.

Swell.

[klaiggeb]

I remember posting last year that I did not want this guy.

His track record in KC was not good, and, other than one hot spurt last year, he's proven he hasn't improved at all

At least in my opinion

[pachyderm]

And then yanked after 4 no hit innings...


I hate Kap.

[reedonly]

4th inning was high stress. Even though he has a no hitter going, Junis was getting worn down and based on what kind of pitcher he is, the no hitter would have been over by the 5th inning. If he goes longer, he won’t be available later in the series and with Cobb needing an extra day, they will be leaning on the pen in SD.  No hitters are nice but at this stage of the season, its all about winning as many games as possible and keeping the pitching staff fresh.  Remember Chris Heston?  Of course you don't.

[klaiggeb]

I am stunned, but I am very glad I was wrong!

[reedonly]

Junis has 1.65 ERA in 7 latest appearances (16.1 IP)

Manaea's last 7 appearances 19.1 IP, 3.26 ERA.

I think they may have found the sweet spot for both of these.

[klaiggeb]

I'm going to reserve my opinion on both.

Manaea loses the strike zone for NO reason right in the middle of an outting, and Junis...well, I'm guessing he's just having another spurt.

His track record is not particularly good.

[Islandboagie]

Junis has been better, and personaly I like Junis. But you can't convince me Manaea hasn't been absolute dog shit this entire season, in fact, I'd say he's only gotten worse as the season has progressed. Last outing I think he walked 5 batters in 3 innings. His era during a certain stretch might be at an acceptable number, but how many times does he enter the game and allow inherited runners score, and how many times does someone have to bail him out? If I were the Giants I'd release both Manaea and Stripling. I'd rather see Hjelle and Winn in those spots.

[klaiggeb]

Sept 2, 2023 10:26:27 GMT -5 Islandboagie said:

Junis has been better, and personaly I like Junis. But you can't convince me Manaea hasn't been absolute dog shit this entire season, in fact, I'd say he's only gotten worse as the season has progressed. Last outing I think he walked 5 batters in 3 innings. His era during a certain stretch might be at an acceptable number, but how many times does he enter the game and allow inherited runners score, and how many times does someone have to bail him out? If I were the Giants I'd release both Manaea and Stripling. I'd rather see Hjelle and Winn in those spots.

I guess we're going to have to disagree about Junis, boagie.

Though I won't deny that he's had a good stretch; 16 or so really good innings.

Too often he rolls on out there, hangs sliders and gives up runs when, IMHO, he shouldn't.

He has decent but not great stuff, and an above average sinker.

But his location...that's where I have the issue with him.

For a guy in his 7th big league season, I expect better command/location of his pitches.

No, he doesn't walk that many, 2.4/9 innings, but his lifetime ERA is an abominable 4.65!


Now on Manaea, we certainly agree!

I've been complaining about him and his absolute lack of command all season long.

10 K/s/9, but 4 BB/9!

And that doesn't even begin to to tell the story about how he's ALMOST ALWAYS behind in the count!


I'm hoping that for the Giants, his tenure is one and done!

[Islandboagie]

His career ERA might be 4.65, but his ERA with the Giants is 4.20. He's making a little over league minimum and he's been our long reliever/spot starter for two years and he has done an adequate job of it. You didn't like him last year, so I knew you obviously wouldn't like him this year either. Just as you didn't like most if not all of our middle relievers over the past 15 seasons.

[klaiggeb]

Most of our middle long relievers? You might be right then again I liked petite a lot

[klaiggeb]

But outside of petite, who else didn't I like it was a long reliever?

My qualifications to be a pitcher on the Giants is simple; throw strikes, be aggressive, have good command. If the reliever does those things, I have no problem with them. I have a huge problem with with major league hurlers with no command, who constantly fall behind theaters, and can't locate within the strike zone.

If that puts me in the cage of not liking a lot of / all middle relievers, I'm okay with that. That's the minimum I expect from Major League hurlers

[Islandboagie]

I agree, Yusmeiro Petit was a hard guy not to like. I mean the guy was instrumental in getting us through the 2014 post-season, not to mention he came 1 out away from throwing a perfect game in a spot start....all this while making league minimum. But Petit wasn't a dominant force and was never expected to be, he was simply there to eat innings, just like Junis.

Obviously I'd take Petit over Junis any day, I guess I just reserve my anger for the guys making tons of money and falling way short of expectations. Junis was never supposed to carry any of that weight on his shoulders, yet he's done more for us in the last two seasons than Desclafani has. For what Junis was expected to be for us, he's met and I'd say exceeded those expectations, just my opinion. I don't suggest everyone be a big Junis fan, but I find it very hard to have a negative take on Junis at all.

As for the other relievers you haven't liked over the years..I should probably not have used "didn't like." Instead I should have said you've been unrealistically hard on certain relievers. I could go on and on about who, but how long have I known you on this board (as well as Marc's board) Boly? I think we go back to the late 90s early 2000s? I know your tendencies by now, as you know mine. If you want some names..I remember rants about Kontos, Strickland, Lopez, Machi, Casilla and Affeldt to name a few.

[klaiggeb]

The 1990s? Wow! Has it been that long?

And you are right about me, I get frustrated with pitching very quickly. And part of that's because I pitched for so long.

I was incredibly hard on myself, and I was playing for the love of the game. These guys are making lots of money, and when you make it to the major leagues and don't have location and command.. it just bothers me.

He was hoping we're still on the board another couple of decades from today! Only I'm 74 this november, and I don't know how many more decades I have. But it's sure been fun interacting with you and others on this board over the years! Wish mark would come back.

[Islandboagie]

Boly- The 1990s? Wow! Has it been that long?

Boagie- I was thinking about it and it's got to be close to that. I remember having arguments with people on the board about Bill Mueller, people wanted to replace him because he didn't have corner infield power, I referenced his on base percentage which was a fairly new stat to the average fan. Mueller left the Giants after the 2000 season. I also remember discussing the new ballpark and went back and fourth with Allen about Bonds before Bonds was breaking records. It had to have been at least 2000, but I'm thinking more like '98 or '99.

A guy with the screen name "Bambam" invited me to the board. Then Marc talked to me for a while in AOL messenger explaining to me the rules. The #1 rule was to never reply to Rog. Apparently there wasn't a way to block people back then, so they wanted to ignore him in hopes he'd go away.

I think I gave up a little on talking Giants after the 2002 season and left for a few years, I think I came back around 2005. Then left again for a while and finally came back just after Marc passed away and I've been here ever since.

Now that I'm thinking about it, I must say..this board has been a much more casual and positive experience for me ever since Rog got bounced. My only regret is not doing it sooner.

[klaiggeb]

I am so impressed with your memory! Bam bam? Haven't thought of that guy in years!

As I said once before, my wife and I had dinner with him and his wife way back when, and he was nice enough in person. But on the board? He is a harder head than mine! And that's hard to do!

I have really enjoyed the board, in the discussions I take place here, I really wish we had more people on it however.

I was really pleased when patch joined us, but I do miss mark. And I also wish holiday would post much more often.

I have to think if we were winning, we hear more from holiday and others, and maybe find some new guys joining us.

With the injuries, with players not performing up to expectations, this has been a most frustrating season.

However, that said, I have really, really enjoyed watching the kids get a chance to play!

I think that speaks really well of our future!

[reedonly]

Hard to get excited about a team where you cannot stand the ownership, management, and half the players.

[klaiggeb]

That's really well said,Reed.

You managed to put in the words what I could not.

[Islandboagie]

Right when I think they're starting to make the right moves, three days later all the younger kids get demoted back to Sacramento then we start playing like crap again. This has happened multiple times this season.

[klaiggeb]

Gee, bogie we have to understand that FZ and GK no better than everyone. Probably the best and smartest baseball Minds in the majors!

Um.. not!

Those two are two of the most self-deluding baseball people I've ever seen.

But unless I missed my guess, we're stuck with both of those clods for years to come!

[card10]

Junis pitched well.  After the All-Star break, it seems that the Giants have no will to win, mainly strike out which reflects a lack of confidence.  Today's 9/5 and they lead 6-4 in the 7th.  Now it's 10-6 Cubs.  Where's the internal fortitude to win?  Come on guys!

[reedonly]

Sept 5, 2023 13:43:19 GMT -5 Islandboagie said:

Right when I think they're starting to make the right moves, three days later all the younger kids get demoted back to Sacramento then we start playing like crap again. This has happened multiple times this season.

I don't get why the veterans seem to have a really long leash compared to the rookies, even when the rookies are playing better.  Even if it doesn't show up in the w-L column, I would rather that they play the young guys, have them do the learning curve this year, then go for it next season.  It is futile to rely on guys like Davis, Slater, etc.  Free Ron Wotus!

[reedonly]

Sept 5, 2023 13:43:19 GMT -5 Islandboagie said:

Right when I think they're starting to make the right moves, three days later all the younger kids get demoted back to Sacramento then we start playing like crap again. This has happened multiple times this season.

They are not letting players get into any sort of comfort zone with all the platooning and openers.  I nearly gagged when Beck came in relief.  Kapler doesn't know how to handle them.  

[klaiggeb]

In terms of managing the pitching staff, isn't this exactly what GK did in philadelphia? Mismanaged them?

[reedonly]

He had a history of burning out his relievers by August-September. Now that they employ the opener strategy, he's burning out the whole staff. Even when they won 107 games, the relievers were totally gassed and probably couldn't go much further, even if they had somehow gotten past LA.  As it is, he stated that he planned to run Patrick Bailey into the ground before he had that collision yesterday. 

[reedonly]

Sept 6, 2023 8:29:01 GMT -5 klaiggeb said:

In terms of managing the pitching staff, isn't this exactly what GK did in philadelphia? Mismanaged them?

Maybe we need to root for them to totally fall on their faces but the management is so foolish that they will repeat the same mistakes over and over again.  Madness. 

[card10]

Sept 6, 2023 8:14:58 GMT -5 reedonly said:

Sept 5, 2023 13:43:19 GMT -5 Islandboagie said:

Right when I think they're starting to make the right moves, three days later all the younger kids get demoted back to Sacramento then we start playing like crap again. This has happened multiple times this season.

They are not letting players get into any sort of comfort zone with all the platooning and openers.  I nearly gagged when Beck came in relief.  Kapler doesn't know how to handle them.  

Agreed.  Too much platooning does not work for the Giant's talent level.  The starters should get going or FZ needs to aggressively go after better players.  When was the last time the Giants acquired a "superstar" via trade?  

[reedonly]

Sept 6, 2023 21:08:06 GMT -5 card10 said:

Sept 6, 2023 8:14:58 GMT -5 reedonly said:

They are not letting players get into any sort of comfort zone with all the platooning and openers.  I nearly gagged when Beck came in relief.  Kapler doesn't know how to handle them.  

Agreed.  Too much platooning does not work for the Giant's talent level.  The starters should get going or FZ needs to aggressively go after better players.  When was the last time the Giants acquired a "superstar" via trade?  

The argument they give is that they are putting the players in the best position to succeed but I think guys like Joc, Slater, yaz, and Wade Jr got reduced to becoming halfway players under this system and the opener strategy has worn down the whole staff and messed with their rhythms. 

[klaiggeb]

Sept 6, 2023 21:29:39 GMT -5 reedonly said:

Sept 6, 2023 21:08:06 GMT -5 card10 said:

Agreed.  Too much platooning does not work for the Giant's talent level.  The starters should get going or FZ needs to aggressively go after better players.  When was the last time the Giants acquired a "superstar" via trade?  

The argument they give is that they are putting the players in the best position to succeed but I think guys like Joc, Slater, yaz, and Wade Jr got reduced to becoming halfway players under this system and the opener strategy has worn down the whole staff and messed with their rhythms. 

Fz has continually shown he will not get better players, preferring to believe he's a genius who can find a gem like he found in Yaz every off season, or during the season.

What Reed calls the churn.

That is his history. That is his track record, I don't see any of the changing now or in the near future.

Seems everyone but the front office understands what changes need to be made. One FZ goes. Two GK goes. Three let the kids start to play! What they're doing isn't working, and as they pointed out on the pregame show yesterday gave Kepler's way of doing things worked once in 4 years. And that's not good enough. Especially when that one year consisted of players having career years to make things look better than they really did

[reedonly]

boly: let the kids start to play!

If they do that, the season will be a success. They need to establish building blocks for the future and if not now, when?  Its more important to see what young players like Keaton Winn or Beck can do rather than to run Alex Wood or JD out there.