sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
|
Post by sfgdood on Jul 31, 2019 13:50:47 GMT -5
We got back major league ready infielder Mauricio Dubon. Does that mean Panik will be moved?
|
|
sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
|
Post by sfgdood on Jul 31, 2019 13:59:48 GMT -5
Dubon is 25 and is a middle infielder, the number 3 prospect with the Brewers had 16 HRs with a 809 OPS this season in AAA
|
|
|
Post by klaiggeb on Jul 31, 2019 21:10:11 GMT -5
Pavlovic says we should take this # 3 rating with a grain of salt. That Milwaukee doesn't have a good system.
But the bottom line for me is this: We gave up little to get a guy who looks to be ready and at least has a shot at a future.
|
|
|
Post by rxmeister on Aug 1, 2019 7:53:00 GMT -5
I forget if it was Baggs or Pavlovic but earlier in the season when there rumors that Bum might go to Milwaukee they wrote to keep an eye on Dubon because Zaidi really liked him. As a result I wasn’t the least bit surprised when they traded for him yesterday. The fact that they got him for two ineffective relievers was shocking though! Zaidi liking him is good enough for me. In the offseason when Bum was discussed with Milwaukee Zaidi wanted Burnes and Woodruff, two high velocity relievers being converted to starters. Burnes has struggled with the long ball but has great stuff and all Woodruff has done is gone 11-3 with a 3.75 ERA in a launching pad, with 129 K in 117 innings. If Zaidi likes Dubon, I’m betting he’s good.
|
|
|
Post by klaiggeb on Aug 1, 2019 10:23:29 GMT -5
At this point, Mark, I'm agreeing with you.
Farhan made me a believer yesterday.
|
|
|
Post by sharksrog on Aug 15, 2019 10:27:15 GMT -5
See, Randy, Boly isn't in denial!
|
|
|
Post by klaiggeb on Aug 15, 2019 10:51:23 GMT -5
I'm from New Jersey, the Show me state...
|
|
|
Post by sharksrog on Aug 15, 2019 12:28:19 GMT -5
I thought that was Missouri. But I guess you could show me that it was New Jersey!
|
|
|
Post by klaiggeb on Aug 15, 2019 15:03:43 GMT -5
It's Missouri, I know.
I was being facetious.
|
|
|
Post by klaiggeb on Aug 15, 2019 15:04:20 GMT -5
My point was, I wasn't going to take ANYONE'S word on Farhan.
He had to prove to me what he could do before I'd jump onto his Magical Mystery Tour Bus.
|
|
|
Post by sharksrog on Aug 16, 2019 7:00:38 GMT -5
I think the best thing is to simply keep an open mind. Rather than taking the "He's going to have to prove it to me before I give him any more credit" tack, I thought it was more fair to say that I'd like to see it happen myself, but Farhan comes with a fine reputation, so I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt until I have enough information to make a more informed decision.
Otherwise it seems kind of like, yeah, I know this guy Mays has played well in the minors, but I've got to see him do it in the majors before I'm going to take ANYONE'S word on him. I'm not just going to blindly jump on his Magical Mystery Tour Bus, since the Beatles haven't even been invented yet. Let's see what he does again Spahnie!
Interesting parallel too, in that Farhan didn't make any big moves for a long time, and Mays began his career 1 for 25, although if we were waiting to see what he did against Spahnie, he deposited Warren's pitch on the roof. But as Spahn himself said, "For the first 60 feet, that was a HELLUVA pitch!"
|
|
|
Post by Islandboagie on Aug 16, 2019 9:29:27 GMT -5
If your opinion is already being dictated by other people's opinions, wouldn't that be the opposite of keeping an open mind?
I think Boly has been fair with Zaidi, he's been cautious of his reputation but also complimentary of the good moves he's made. Nothing wrong with that.
|
|
|
Post by sharksrog on Aug 16, 2019 21:02:11 GMT -5
That's a good point you made, Boagie. What I try to do is go with the best information I have available, keeping my mind open for future facts, events and information.
In the case of Farhan, all I had to go with initially was what I read and heard about him, which was quite positive. So my initial take was positive, and I kept my eyes and ears open for new information.
Farhan didn't make big moves over the winter, so I still had pretty much only the opinions of so-called experts and others to go on. I did like that he didn't take big risks financially, and I liked that he seemed to be working very hard and in what seemed to me like an intelligent manner, although I didn't have enough to go on to be certain of that. I didn't like that he went after Harper, as my mind rooted against signing him, just as my heart rooted for it. But from what I understand from those around the game such as former GM's, that was probably an ownership decision. I did like that ownership or Farhan or whoever it was didn't go higher.
Some of his moves began to pay off, as some of the darts he threw as the wall stuck. Others of course did not. His deadline moves seemed the first indication of anything approaching brilliance, with most of his previous success coming mostly from hard work (which is just fine too).
Suddenly the Giants' farm system is no longer among the worst. Most of that isn't his doing, although this year's draft is of course of his making, and he might get credit for a little of the development team's work.
Of course one can take the position of "I'll believe it when I see it." But that was basically a negative starting stance, which seemed to conflict with the good opinions of Farhan around baseball. Some here seem to regard their opinions more highly than the opinions of some inside and reporting on baseball, or even compared to scouts. I tend to try to gather as much information as possible, then use it to augment my own views.
Now, if Farhan were making bad moves now, I would at least be questioning the good opinions around baseball about Farhan. But questioning them would be pretty much the extent, unless it was clear that they -- many of whom are more knowledgeable than I -- were wrong. But, not surpisingly, the more I learn about Farhan, the more the opinions of those who know more than I have been confirmed.
I thought it was wrong to take a wait and see approach, since that flew in the face of the evidence that was pretty readily available about Farhan. I probably gave it TOO much emphasis, but when I asked my son -- who lives in LA -- what the Dodgers fans thought of the Giants' signing Farhan and he said that they were upset about it, I took that as a real positive.
Now, Farhan still has a ton of work. The low minors look good, but they're always fraught with risk. The majors and the higher minors don't look so good, although even they are starting to look better.
Was it fair to take a negative initial stance on Farhan given his reputation? I don't believe it was. I do appreciate that Boly was quick to praise Farhan's deadline moves though, and I have no idea what Randy was looking at. I get frustrated with many here, but Randy flat-out baffles me. I'm usually on the other side of the issue from him, and I usually feel really good about that. When Randy agrees with me, I almost have to go back and wonder if I myself am missing something.
Randy pretty much shows his bias with his ridiculous icon. But I guess it gives him an excuse not to have to look at much of anything in any kind of depth.
|
|
|
Post by klaiggeb on Aug 17, 2019 10:16:09 GMT -5
As you always point out, Rog, opinion is usually not the best information available.
It's different with players.
They have a numeric system that is "see-able" each season.
For a GM, or an owner, it's not "see-able."
I wanted Sabean to prove himself, and he did.
I wanted his replacement to prove himself...and he didn't.
I was no different with Farhan.
I was consistent with what I needed to see before I would throw my support his way.
|
|
|
Post by sharksrog on Aug 17, 2019 10:44:53 GMT -5
As you always point out, Rog, opinion is usually not the best information available. It's different with players. They have a numeric system that is "see-able" each season. For a GM, or an owner, it's not "see-able." Rog -- A couple of things: . First, if opinion is all there is, to me, expert opinion is the best available. That's all I had to judge Farhan on, so that is what I used for my preliminary judgment. . Second, are you saying that numbers make it easier to evaluate players? That those numbers provide insight that isn't available in other situations? I supported Sabean immediately, since my dad was a big advocate of him. Brian liked that Brian came up through scouting, and he felt that gave him good insight. He was looking forward to the time when the Giants would fulfill their announced intention that Brian would replace Al Rosen. But my dad fell about four months short. Back at that time, I was spending a lot more time raising a family and officiating sports. My dad was retired. He knew more about the Giants than I at that time. I simply went with the best information I had available, and my dad turned out to be a pretty good source of info. Since I'm not a pessimist, I tend to give others the benefit of the doubt. For instance, I did that with Randy for a long, long time. Even after he stood Allen and me up one time. Stuff happens. With Brian, I had my dad's opinion. With Farhan, I had the opinion of the industry. With Evans, I didn't have much to go on, although I gave him the initial benefit of the doubt, since the Giants thought enough of him to promote him. I was thinking just yesterday that when the Giants get good again, we will suddenly realize that some of the players that helped the most -- Joey Bart, the international players, Ramos, some of the pitchers, etc., will very likely have come from the Evans era. I'm not saying the Evans era was good, but we probably haven't seen the best of it, either. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/5480/pomeranz-black-traded-milwaukee#ixzz5wsBsrLjE
|
|
|
Post by Islandboagie on Aug 17, 2019 11:24:26 GMT -5
Rog- First, if opinion is all there is, to me, expert opinion is the best available. That's all I had to judge Farhan on, so that is what I used for my preliminary judgment.
Boagie- Expert opinions believe Buck Showalter was a good manager. Expert opinions never saw the McGwire/Sosa chase for 61 as a juiced up abomination. And most importantly when it comes to this board, expert opinions counted the Giants out in all three of their Championship runs. Can you see why maybe some of us hold "expert opinions" at face value? I dont believe we should totally disregard expert opinions, but based on recent history, it might be a little foolish to blindly follow the expert opinions without seeing the evidence for ourselves.
|
|
|
Post by sharksrog on Aug 17, 2019 11:50:20 GMT -5
Why does one have to blindly follow opinions? They are useful to check our own opinions though, and when they are all we have, expert opinions are probably the best thing to temporarily follow.
For instance, it would have been easy for the fired Don Mattingly to be down on Farhan, but in fact he supported him even after Don was forced to leave. Dave Roberts supports Farhan.
It is possible there were other factors in our forcing Farhan to "prove" himself.
|
|
sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
|
Post by sfgdood on Aug 17, 2019 13:14:26 GMT -5
What is more annoying...Someone who counted a team out early that went on to win a championship...or the guy that 7 years later continues to criticize that guy even though he himself said it was pure luck for that team to win?
|
|
|
Post by sharksrog on Aug 17, 2019 14:56:01 GMT -5
See, Randy, in order to try to discredit me, you have to be untruthful. There is no doubt I said luck was involved, which even Kruk and Kuip admit was the case in 2014, but I never said it was ALL luck. I have even hypothesized that the advantage the Giants had was chemistry. They certainly didn't have the best on-field talent.
You gave up on that 2014 team, which was ridiculous. By this time six years ago you had already given up on them for more than a week. When I say that you don't understand baseball, you don't seem to understand that teams have up's and down's. As I have long said, when the Giants are playing their best, they aren't really that good, and when they're playing their worst, they aren't really that bad. It's amazing you're not aware of that.
|
|
|
Post by Islandboagie on Aug 17, 2019 19:41:17 GMT -5
I thought Randy gave up on the 2012 team?
|
|
|
Post by klaiggeb on Aug 17, 2019 22:57:38 GMT -5
He and I both did, boagie.
I was so disgusted with that team, I'm not sure I enjoyed the World Series Sweep as much as I should have.
|
|
|
Post by sharksrog on Aug 17, 2019 23:26:02 GMT -5
I thought Randy gave up on the 2014 team, but Randy says it was 2012. I thought it was on August 10, 2014, but it might have been on August 2, 2012.
One thing about giving up on 8/2/12 is that Randy would have given up almost immediately after the Giants acquired Hunter Pence and Marco Scutaro.
|
|
|
Post by Islandboagie on Aug 18, 2019 1:17:44 GMT -5
I gave up on them in 2012 too. Maybe not totally, but I didn't think they were going to win the World Series. Eventhough they had a good season, I remember they didn't play well against good teams most of the season, and had a fairly easy schedule down the stretch. I recall pointing that out here on the board at the time. I certainly wasn't overally optimistic going into October. Randy has gotten a lot of heat from Rog over this, but he wasn't alone in his concerns.
|
|
|
Post by klaiggeb on Aug 18, 2019 10:08:16 GMT -5
No, he wasn't, boagie.
I still remember my anger DURING the World Series, about the team.
Stupid.
Just stupid.
I let my emotions take control and that wasn't right.
Sure wish I could say I won't do it again...
I wish...
|
|
|
Post by Islandboagie on Aug 18, 2019 10:33:45 GMT -5
I believe you're thinking of 2014 again. There wasn't much to be angry about in the 2012 World Series, Detroit hardly even put up a fight.
|
|
|
Post by klaiggeb on Aug 18, 2019 13:15:51 GMT -5
I wasn't angry ABOUT the series, boagie, I was ticked and livid about how we stumbled and bumbled along to get there.
My comment about the series was that I was SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO ticked at them before hand, I didn't enjoy the series sweep as I should have.
|
|
|
Post by sharksrog on Aug 19, 2019 5:01:18 GMT -5
I have a hard time being angry at a team when it isn't the best, yet it beats all the rest and wins the World Championship. The 2012 team was probably the best of the three, aided in great part by Hunter Pence and Marco Scutaro.
|
|
|
Post by Islandboagie on Aug 19, 2019 9:53:38 GMT -5
I wasn't ticked with them either. I found their ability to come back from down 2-0 to the Reds, then 3-1 to the Cardinals more exciting than anything.
2012 was probably the most well-rounded team of the 3. I believe all their starters won at least 15 games each. They had a solid lineup and bench, and their bullpen was likely the best in the game. Record wise they weren't the best in baseball, but players for player they "secretly" had the best 25 man roster.
|
|
|
Post by klaiggeb on Aug 19, 2019 9:56:14 GMT -5
These are professional athletes, and I expect them to perform as such.
They play 162 games, and as players have been saying for a gazillion years, it's a long season.
In fact, that was the title of Jim Brosnan's first book " The Long Season."
But here's the deal.
When I was still teaching we had 185 'teaching' days.
Do I get an excuse for going into the classroom and half-assing it, as I often seen professional baseball players do?
I don't think so.
When I'm teaching I had better be giving it my best regardless of what mental baggage I'm carrying or if I don't feel well.
But I can't just go through the motions.
And players DO "just go through the motions" all too often.
Case in point: It is my contention the Giants INABILITY to beat up on bad pitchers, Merrill Kelly being the latest, is that they have a mental let down.
For the money these clowns make, THAT is unacceptable!
It is.
Regardless of their chances to make the playoffs, they're in a play off run!
Hey, I'm not stupid.
I know NO ONE is 100% every day.
Stuff happens.
Breaks don't go your way.
But at least show everyone that you care.
Be aggressive, not passive.
Hustle!
Play like Pillar on every play!
Play like every at bat is your last.
But no. They don't.
Case in point #2:
I watch players hit weak ground balls to an infielder, and jog to 1st base!
UNacceptable.
Bust your fanny down the line as I always see Vogt and Mini-Yaz and Pillar do.
You want the big pay, then show up and play!
|
|
|
Post by sharksrog on Aug 19, 2019 12:08:49 GMT -5
Case in point #2: I watch players hit weak ground balls to an infielder, and jog to 1st base! UNacceptable. Rog -- We're in definite agreement here. I've found it odd that in the many times I've mentioned my disappointment with players not hustling all out, I've gotten little agreement. I'm suspect the agreement was tacit, but I've been surprised that so little was said. I'm plenty glad to see your comment here, Boly, and I know that's the way YOU played the game. Same with just about all of us here I suspect. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/5480/pomeranz-black-traded-milwaukee#ixzz5x4GHv3Vi
|
|