If I were a veteran Giant...

[rog]

Do we all agree that Farhan was dealt a bad hand? No doubt he was delighted to play it, since it means he's in the game at the highest level, and since it appears he's a guy who likes a challenge. But he was given a roster of overpaid, fading veterans.

So if he doesn't make moves, it's easy to criticize him for not doing enough, and if he does make moves, it's easy to criticize him for running around like a chicken with his head cut off.

What is most intriguing is that despite all our criticism, we have few suggestions as to the specifics of how he could have done better -- which highly damaging moves he's made, and the specific moves he should have made but hasn't.

I described the team Farhan took over as nearly an unplayable lie. Many here are criticizing him for doing wrong, but the specific suggestions of how he should have done better are few.

None of us is happy with the results here. Farhan himself likely heads the list. But we are keep criticizing him for the many moves he's making, saying he doesn't have a plan. Yet we don't have a better one ourselves.

[klaiggeb]

No, Roger, I don't agree he was dealt a bad hand.

Not in the least.

He had choices, and IMHO, he made a number of poor choices.

1-He said they were going to try to win this year. Which I took to mean at least make the playoffs.

If he said that, at some level, he must have believed it. If not, why sign Parra, Solarte, Maybin, Joe, Venditte, and Reed, just to name a few.

2-I believe that deep down, he KNEW he couldn't win this year, and was doing what the owner of Major League did; hope the team would bomb so he would have an excuse to blow it up and start over.

3-If he seriously thought we had any chance, he would have signed stronger players than Solarte, Joe, Reed and Venditte, not to mention the truck load of catchers he signed.

He should have been up front with the players, as I said in a different thread, about what was likely to go down. Meaning he was planning on moving a number of them.

But he wasn't up front with the players. He led them on, and the fans on about a possibility he knew was remote.

How come we, Randy, Boagie, and I, could see the writing on the wall, but you didn't, can't or won't?

I find that perplexing.

We've GIVEN you multiple reasons for our continual criticism, but you you say, and I quote: "we have few suggestions as to the specifics of how he could have done better"

For some reason you are 'hell bent' on defending him, calling him brilliant, among other things.

He's not, and based upon his actions and his failures, which, as you pointed out, he himself admitted, is sufficient evidence to back my case.

By the way, I heard the interview you referenced, and though I admire his honesty, it doesn't make up for his outright deception.

And finally, 4- He could have blown the thing up and started over.

But of course, he didn't.


You go ahead and defend him and his actions, that's your perrogative.

I cannot and will not until I see some huge positive actions that help the team.

I like Pillar, but he's not huge.

I like Pomeranz, but he's not only NOT huge, he's coming off a terrible season. He took a chance which, so far, has not worked out.

[sfgdood]

That's not a valid comment...I mean what new GM comes in expecting to inherit a dynasty? Of course he's going to be expected to right the ship he's inherited. He obviously convinced ownership--or duped them into trusting--that he was the man for the job. So he needs to put up or shut up. Whining about the bad hand he got dealt is a load of crap because he saw the hand before he sat at the table.

The moves he made...none of them have paid off or even show any signs of paying off in the near future. He has no true baseball knowledge.

[rog]

No, Roger, I don't agree he was dealt a bad hand.


Rog -- I'm sure that Farhan was thrilled to get his first job as top dog, and I suspect he was up for the challenge.

But he was given a declining team of overpaid veterans, most of whom were tough to deal because of their declining performance, high salaries and in many cases, no-trade contracts. If you don't agree that is a bad hand, then at least I admire your not letting the cards get you down.




Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/5290/veteran-giant?page=2#ixzz5o2XEfWkw

[rog]

The moves he made...none of them have paid off or even show any signs of paying off in the near future.


Rog -- That's just stupid, Randy. In addition to a few minor league deals which may pay future dividends, it's pretty tough to say that he hasn't fared well with the Pillar, Austin, Vogt, Gott and Vincent additions.



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[sfgdood]

Where is the team at now? Dead last right? Yeah great contributions those guys have given, though.

[rog]

Regardless of where the Giants stand, Randy, it's pretty tough to say that he hasn't fared well with the Pillar, Austin, Vogt, Gott and Vincent additions.

By the way, I should again apologize to you for accusing you of thinking the Giants got fleeced in the Eduardo Nunez trade. It was another poster. Shaun Anderson looked like he could pitch a little and hit at least a little, but he hurt himself with his fielding. Too bad Anderson dropped the throw on Aramis Garcia's heroic attempt to save him a wild pitch. One could have argued that it should have been an error on Anderson rather than a wild pitch, with Garcia at least receiving an assist for his fine play.




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[klaiggeb]

Rog, I scored Farhan a C-/D+. Until things change, I still think that fits.

[rog]

I mentioned at the time that I thought your score was pretty close.

I think Mordy makes a good point: It's not that Farhan has changed the Giants' world, but he hasn't screwed it up yet. Whereas Randy wanted him to make trades right away, he took the more prudent route of waiting to see which players could improve their trade value.

And he didn't mess up future payroll. He would have if he had been successful in signing Bryce Harper, but that was a special situation (which so far Mordy is correct that the Giants did right to avoid). As it stands, he still has a tough salary snarl to get out of for the future, but he hasn't made it worse. And by this time next season, he'll likely have made it better.

It is indeed tough for me to continue to say that I believe Farhan is a very bright man who will succeed with the Giants, since he hasn't done anything great thus far. But we're having a really hard time saying what it is that he SHOULD have done that he hasn't. Or point to what he has done that has really hurt the team.

[klaiggeb]

That he hasn't screwed it up yet, is a valid point.

But that doesn't excuse his deception

[rog]

I'm not seeing the deception. We keep hearing about how we Giants fans have been deceived. I think more than deception, we're frustrated that the team isn't very good -- and that's it's old, overpaid and has no-trade contracts.

No one I know of has recognized it, but don't you think things changed around May 1st? There are a lot of older players who are gone or demoted and a lot of young guys who have been given a shot since then.

[klaiggeb]

Roger, please. I've explained his deception in detail. Please don't make me go into it again.

You disagree about being deception and that's fine.

I believe he mislead the players, and mislead them badly.

You are entitled to your opinion.

I see it my way, you see it yours.


I'll just echo what Randy has said, and I'll paraphrase; If I were a Giant player, I'd not be happy about the way Farhan has handled business because I KNOW NOW, he hasn't got my back.

[rog]

Let's be honest here, Boly. When push comes to shove, NO GM or manager has the player's back. The GM's job is to put together the best roster, with or without a particular player, and the manager's job is to field the best lineup.

[sfgdood]

How is it a GM or manager is supposed to get the most out of players that do not trust them?

[rog]

How is it a GM or manager is supposed to get the most out of players that do not trust them?


Rog -- By providing them with the best possible training and safety and by trying to put them into positions where they are more likely to succeed.




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[sfgdood]

And why would players trust the training from leaders they dont trust? Why would they trust they are being put in the right spots to succeed?

[klaiggeb]

How is it a GM or manager is supposed to get the most out of players that do not trust them?



Rog -- By providing them with the best possible training and safety...


Roger, please tell me you're not serious here.

Please.

Training and safety?

This is a great example of what Randy and I keep saying when we make the statement that stats guys don't get it.

All players want to be highly trained and safe, but those have NOTHING to do with getting the most out of a player.

Nothing.

Players need to know the manager has confidence in them; that he, and the GM have their backs.

Your statement is simply silly and not realistic.

You can argue your point, but I'm telling you this as a friend, not only will I not respond, but you're so far off base you're in the next galaxy on this on.

[donk33]

dk...wow, what a bunch of BS...do you think there was anyone in the business of baseball who trusted Leo Duroucher??? He was a thief, consorted with Mafia types, sold off long time Giants and won 2 flags and 1 ring.... Branch Rickey was a hated GM long before Jackie Robinson...found all kinds of ways to screw his ball players with their salaries and security....Do you think the players formed a union because the GM's "had their backs"

[sfgdood]

Durocher was REALLY old school. He motivated through intimidation. He knew what buttons to push. He was like a father to Mays, to other guys he was a taskmaster. The game is different now. After free agency, players were no longer chained to one team and one manager

[klaiggeb]

Leo was also known to back the players that he considered, "his guys."

[rog]

All players want to be highly trained and safe, but those have NOTHING to do with getting the most out of a player.

Nothing.


Rog -- I have mentioned that I believe Bruce's biggest strength as a manager is that he's a very good motivator, so I understand what you're saying. But a team can't get the most out of a player if it doesn't properly train him and/or if the player is hurt. That was my point.

Both what you're saying and what I said are important.




Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/5290/veteran-giant?page=2#ixzz5oKcLLWRg

[rog]

Although Willie's relationship with Leo was an extreme one, I think Madison Bumgarner and many other Giants have similar feelings toward Bruce as Willie had toward Leo.