Unlikely to Rebuild

[klaiggeb]

If you haven't already seen this article, I'll tell you in advance, Randy and others, you're not going to like it.

I didn't.

www.sfchronicle.com/giants/article/Giants-Brian-Sabean-Total-rebuild-13178152.php?utm_source=email&utm_medium=email&utm_content=newsletter&utm_campaign=sfc_sports

[rog]

That is indeed disappointing. It would be nice if season ticket holders wrote Brian that they weren't going to renew without a rebuild.

[klaiggeb]

That would be nice, but I don't think it would help.

I did some research this morning and here's what I THINK his logic is: (NOT my logic, Sabean's.)

1-Rodriguez, Suarez and Stratton have gotten their feet more than wet, and have a future with the club.

2-Bum is coming off 2 injured, more or less, seasons, and is likely to rebound.

3-Shaun Anderson looks like he's coming quickly, and that makes one more young arm for next year... albeit he might not open the year with the club, he's coming.

4-Duggar is adjusting nicely, taking care of the CF job.

5-Panik, IF he can stay healthy is "looking" like he's coming back.

6-Belt, when healthy is a solid 1b, with Chris Shaw coming along nicely.

7-Crawford is still at the top of his game defensively.

8-Longo was hurt and even when he wasn't, spent most of the year learning NL pitching.

9-Moronta, & Black have made HUGE strides forward.

10-Strickland proved he can close

11-Slater looks like a solid LF, or utility guy.

12-Hanson can play every where and is faster than light.

13-Jeffy will be back and give us a lot of innings.

14-I liked what I saw out of Pierce Johnson, and I love the upside of Julian Fernandez!



Therefore, with all that in place, I (meaning Sabean) must go out and get a RF with some pop, and some other, little pieces to supplement them.

I'd (again, Sabean) love to have Bryce Harper, and I think we have a shot at signing him.

(NO, Brian, you don't)

Therefore, we continue to 'retool,' we don't need to rebuild.



I may not be 100% right in guessing his thinking, but I'm sure I'm close.

[sfgdood]

Not surprising at all...but, yeah, very disappointing. The Giants are in full on denial mode and their shills behind the microphones--TV and radio--have been singing false praises and making excuses all season long. The fans need to stop filling that park before they finally get a clue.

[sfgdood]

The Giants believe they can keep patching this up and get back to the glory years. It's not gonna happen. There WILL be a rebuild if they want to avoid a Cubslike run of zero championships...it's just a question of how quickly they are willing to accept it.

[sfgdood]

What bothers me is the outright LIES told by Sabean in this article.

"We knew this was going to be a building block season." WHAT??? I don't remember you saying that in the offseason or even in Spring Training. All season we've been hearing the "we're still in it" crapola and NOW you tell us it was a building block year all along? If it was a building block year, how come no selling at the trade deadline? If it was a building block year, why all the moves for aging veterans past their prime last offseason?

I'm outraged.

[rog]

I think you're pretty much on the money, Boly, although I might look at it a little differently:

1. Rodriguez has looked surprisingly good. I wouldn't count on him, but there is reason for hope. Perhaps my biggest concern is that he gave up such a huge number of homers for the River Cats (who are on TV tomorrow night). He put a tight cap on that in the majors though. Suarez and Stratton have shown flashes, but their inconsistency argues against counting on them very heavily. With Cueto out and Samardzija a big question mark, that is a big concern.

2. Madison is coming off two injury-riddled seasons, and I wish I could be more optimistic about him. He should still be good in 2019, but he actually began declining in 2016, BEFORE the injuries. He's lost velocity, and he isn't missing nearly as many bats. Re-signing him is looking very scary, although his youth for a free agent helps.

3. Shaun Anderson is on his way, but the Giants got raped in the Eduardo Nunez trade. Oh wait, we've known for over a year now that probably wasn't true.

Shaun was very good with Richmond, but since yielding a home run in the Futures Game, he's stalled a bit with the River Cats, posting a 4.33 ERA and striking out only 24 batters in 35.1 innings. That's a significant decline from a 3.45 ERA and 93 strikeouts in 94 innings with Richmond. The PCL is known as a hitters' league though, so that somewhat mitigates the situation. Shaun might be ready for the back of the rotation a year from now or in 2020. He needs to get over the AAA hump though.

4. Duggar is the man in center field. The question is whether he will hit. His .293 OBP right now is unacceptable. Against right-handed starters, it's at .299, which is still horrible. Until he hits, he and Gorkys could possibly make an acceptable platoon. Steven has cut his strikeouts down, but he still has 37 of them in 123 at bats, and he's walked only nine times, which isn't close to lead off man worthy.

5. I think Panik is OK. It would take a lot to get him away.

6. Belt has had a hard time staying healthy, but the Giants have possible backups in Slater and Sandoval. Shaw has cut his strikeouts some, but he has still struck out far too often. And as his strikeouts have come down, his hitting hasn't really improved since May.

7. I believe Brandon Crawford has backed off a little defensively, but he's still one of the very best. His hitting may have also peaked in 2015 and 2016, but he's still a good hitter for a shortstop.

8. I doubt Evan Longoria will ever be the player he was, and even his Gold Glove defense appears to have been an illusion. This is probably the worst defensive season of his career, and while luck doesn't seem to have played in his favor, his offensive numbers look like they might be his worst as well.

9. Moronta and Black have indeed come from almost nowhere. Both throw hard, if not always accurately, and Moronta has other stuff as well.

10. Strickland showed he can be an adequate closer, and he appears plenty good enough to set up.

11. Slater is one of my favorites, and his versatility is valuable. I wonder if he could play a little shorstop if necessary. If so, he should be a valuable utilityman.

12. Hanson can hit only from the left side, and his fielding is so-so at best, but he's versatile and can indeed fly like the wind. I think he's been lucky this season though, and as fun as he is to watch, Slater could make him very redundant.

13. As hopeful as I was for Jeff entering this season, I think at this point he's a question mark for 2019 and 2020.

14. I haven't seen enough of Fernandez to have much of an opinion, but I was excited when the Giants picked him up in the Rule V draft.


The Giants aren't an especially attractive destination for free agents right now, especially for hitters.

I think the Giants likely are still overrating their players, but they do have quite a bit of salary available for the free agent market.

I think they can skimp by in center, but I think they need two corner outfielders, and I think the need for a replacement for Longoria will materialize sooner rather than later. This will quite possibly be Evan's worst season with both the bat AND the glove. And his trend has been downward since the 2013 season ended.

[rog]

If it was a building block year, why all the moves for aging veterans past their prime last offseason?


Rog -- I understand your frustration. I'm as unhappy with the direction the Giants appear to be headed as you are.

On the other hand, Brian's saying this was viewed as a block-building season doesn't necessarily clash with the statement until recently that the Giants were still in it -- albeit barely. It HAS been a building-block season. The Giants will likely add something like 15 wins despite having a ton of injuries. The Giants needed almost everything to go right, and most things went wrong.

We both think the Giants would have been better to rebuild, but as Brian said, the fan base may not allow it. Sadly baseball is a business. It shocked me when Chris Speier said he was going to work, but he was going to work.

[klaiggeb]

Roger, the comments I made were not mine. I was emulating Sabean, so there's no disagreeing with me, just Brian.

[klaiggeb]

Randy is right on the mark; Sabean DID lie, and he's the only one, it seems, who caught it.

When they made the McCutchin, Longo, and Jackson moves, they spoke as if they really believed they had a chance to win.

I remember that.

They knew that at some point, Duggar would be up.... and maybe Suarez.

But that is IT!



I don't like being deceived and worse, lied to.


Pavlovich, or someone, needs to call Sabean on this.

[rog]

Roger, the comments I made were not mine. I was emulating Sabean, so there's no disagreeing with me, just Brian.


Rog -- I realize you were imitating Brian and that I wasn't disagreeing with you. I wasnt specifically disagreeing with him and his opinions either, but rather expanding my own point of view, most of which you've read before anyway.




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[rog]

Randy is right on the mark; Sabean DID lie, and he's the only one, it seems, who caught it.

When they made the McCutchin, Longo, and Jackson moves, they spoke as if they really believed they had a chance to win.


Rog -- They absolutely did think they had a chance to win it, although they had to be honest enough to see their chance wasn't a big one. And they did build with blocks, acquiring the blocks of McCutchen, Longoria, Jackson, Rodriguez and Hanson.

I get how Randy and you could feel lied to by Brian, but the two statements aren't mutually exclusive. Do we honestly think a team that lost 98 games is going to compete WITHOUT more blocks?




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[rog]

They knew that at some point, Duggar would be up.... and maybe Suarez.

But that is IT!


Rog -- I think they were hoping that Steven would be up early, if not to start the season. They expected Stratton and Blach to play significant roles. They knew they had Suarez in reserve, and might have hoped that Rodriguez would play a role. They knew they would get Smith back early in the season. I don't think they were counting heavily on Mac Williamson, although little doubt that they were hoping. I think they were hoping for something from Chris Shaw before the end of the season.

And that guys like Hansen and d'Arnaud would contribute.



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[klaiggeb]

Rog -- They absolutely did think they had a chance to win it, although they had to be honest enough to see their chance wasn't a big one.

***boly says***

But the lie came late. Sabean claimed he KNEW this was a building block year... but they really had only 2 building blocks, and I used that word lightly, that they were even considering bringing up.

He flat out lied!

Doesn't matter when, he still lied.

[Islandboagie]

Just because it's a building block year doesn't mean you can't try to compete as well. The Giants are in a position where the fans demand they be aggressive in the free agent market, Randy included. So the Giants tried to do that while also leaving room for our young guys to get their chance. We're better off than we were a year ago, and we have a handful of young guys that have established themselves for being a part of the future.

[sfgdood]

But don't you folks see that just as the Georgia Sattelites once sung...the Giants are tying themselves down with battleship chains.

Belt...a DL regular who can't handle the pressure of high expectations. Broom him.

Panik...spends so much time in the training room, Murph is getting worried. Broom him too...quick!

Posey...damaged goods. Tell Bart it's his show and get what you can for Buster after he recovers from surgery.

Longoria...glove has left him...all he has left is a teeny bit of the power he once had. Hit the road.

We should have given McCutchen, Pence and Holland the heave ho too when we had the chance to get something...ANYTHING...but we blew that too. Need I go on? This team isn't going anywhere until we overhaul it. This filling it with "fix a flat" every offseason is just lame. Just be honest with the fans that it's time to rebuild, just like we did 10-12 years ago. The TRUE fans will respect the plan and remain loyal. The great dynasties of the Bay Area all had to endure hard times before reaching the brass ring. Stop playing with our hearts and do the right thing...rebuild.

[rog]

But the lie came late. Sabean claimed he KNEW this was a building block year..


Rog -- But this WAS a building block year. Unless no changes are made, every year is pretty much a building block year. Here is the definition of building block:


a basic unit from which something is built up.
"sounds are the building blocks of language"


If we interpret "building block" the way we wish to, we can turn Brian's statements in to a lie. But if we use the definition, we find that his statements aren't mutually exclusive, and therefore don't form a lie.




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[rog]

rebuild.


Rog -- I strongly agree with you, Randy, that rebuilding was and is the way to in terms of rebuilding the Giants. I strongly disagree with you that Sabean lied. See the definition above of building block. Look at Boagie's explanation.

[sfgdood]

When I read that post, Rog, the first thing that came to mind was Bill Clinton, under oath, with a straight face, actually making the following statement..."that depends on what your definition of 'is' is." I mean come on. You're argument insults us all. We all know Sabean was being less than straight with us. His actions said the team was trying to win...not just the signings but also the failed pursuit of Stanton. For him to now try to defend the poor season by calling it a "building block year" at this point just flies in the face of his actions and statements all year.

Face it...either he's being dishonest now or he was dishonest all year.

[klaiggeb]

For ME, the lie was his statement; "we knew this was going to be a building block year."

Huh?

When did HE EVER SAY THAT?

Fact; he didn't.

As I posted earlier, the ONLY players they thought would come up this year were Duggar, late in the year, and Suarez...maybe in September.


He can try laying that crap on someone else, it ain't flyin' with me.

[rog]

You are of course entitled to your opinion. I was merely defining the words Brian Sabean used before calling him a liar.

One of the important differences between what I said and what Bill Clinton said is that I don't believe he gave the definition of "is."

Of course Bill Clinton was a liar. As a registered Republican, I'm guessing there has been one or two Republicans who have been as well. I'm guessing Brian Sabean has told a lie or two. If one wants to rag on Brian, he can indeed interpret his comments as forming a lie. Or he can give the man the benefit of the doubt and save the righteous self indignation.

Not related to honesty -- although he's often refered to as Honest Abe -- you might enjoy reading "Lincoln's Last Trial." It lasts a little long, but it reveals much about Abe's character and his ability to influence people. As with most of the books I mention, it is likely in your local library, or perhaps more likely, out on loan.

Another book you might enjoy is "Ninety Percent Mental," written by Giants coach Bob Tewksbury. Boly should like Bob Tewksbury. I thought of Boly when I read how "Tewks" became an All-Star who finished #3 in the Cy Young voting despite featuring an 84 mph fastball. In 1992, Bob's 0.77 set a record for fewest single seasons walks per nine innings of any post-dead ball era pitcher.

Regarding Brian Sabean and whether I'm an apologist for him -- as some here are likely thinking -- I'm not. He's far from my favorite general manager, and about a decade ago when the Giants were last struggling, I was almost shocked when he his contract was renewed. The rehiring worked out fairly well though.

[klaiggeb]

The fact is this, Roger, and there is no other way to spin it.

He never, EVER said this was a 'rebuilding-block' year.

To say that they knew that going in, is flat false.

Which makes it a lie.

One could argue that he simply didn't tell us, and to that I would say; Up your bazoo, with a big fat wazoo, Brian!

If you're expecting a building-block year, you'd better tell the fans what to expect because anything short of that is INTENTIONAL DECEIT.

Which, the way I spell it, is a lie

[Islandboagie]

You have good points, Boly. But whether Sabean came out and said it or not, we were coming off a season where we had the worst record in the NL. I think logical minds would say we weren't exactly a favorite to win the World Series. Despite that, the GM and Manager should always have high expectations for the group they assembled, whether it's logical or not, it sends a good message to your guys. And yes, they do have to sell it to the fans too. They have to market the team, they aren't going to say.."come watch our guys this year! ..we might be decent"

I'm not buying this butthurt act, Boly, you know enough about baseball where you can draw your own conclusion without Sabean telling you how to feel.

[sfgdood]

My focus isn't so much the lie in itself, but the actions behind it. If it's a building block year than act like it. Trade for more young talent...get rid of old broken down players...be openly unashamed sellers at the deadline. Don't insult our intelligence.

[Islandboagie]

That's something I can't argue with, Randy. I'm completely on board with that plan, I always have been. Although, it's hard to make up your entire roster of young studs, sometimes you have to get some patchwork players to fill spots. But I don't think those players need to be making $20 mil a year.

I believe we paid Aubrey Huff $4 million his first season on a one year deal, that was a good patchwork signing. However, it's easy to say that after the fact. I don't recall anyone here being that happy with the Huff signing.

[klaiggeb]

butt hurt act...

Huh?

I have no idea what you mean, boagie.

Seriously.

If you're implying I'm 'acting hurt,' I'm not.

I'm not hurt at all.

I'm disappointed we were deceived.

I expected better for a man whom I believed had honor and integrity.

I'm angry he felt the need to lie, or even worse, do the political two-step with the truth; bend it.

We get enough of that crap from politicians.


With the players they acquired, it was obvious to ME, anyway, that management thought they could win.

Heck, I THOUGHT we could win.

As Randy said, if it truly was a building-block year, then act like it.

They didn't.



I had a lot of respect for Sabean, but because of this, I've lost a lot.

Honor and integrity are important to me, I've said that many times.


But I'm not stupid.


I understand the game a GM has to play.

They are never, EVER going to come out and be totally upfront.

Playing things close to the vest is nothing new to Sabean. He's always been like that.

He never EVER negotiated, nor expressed ideas or deals to the press until they happened.

I don't like that, but I understand he has to do it that way.

Likely I would too.


But hurt?

If that's what you mean, you didn't just miss the bulls eye, you missed the entire target.

[klaiggeb]

Actually, boagie, if we could go back and find the posts, I was okay with it.

I remember thinking and saying, it can't hurt. Something to the effect that we just might get his FSY out of it.

[rog]

Tell Bart it's his show and get what you can for Buster after he recovers from surgery.


Rog -- I don't mind at all trading Buster (although he has a no-trade contract), but I doubt Joey is ready. I think Joey will begin his play as a regular in May, 2020, just as Buster did a decade earlier.


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[rog]

I believe we paid Aubrey Huff $4 million his first season on a one year deal


Rog -- I think it was $3 million, but I'll look it up.

It was in fact $3 million, and he was coming off back-to-back $8 million seasons with the Orioles.




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[rog]

If you're expecting a building-block year, you'd better tell the fans what to expect because anything short of that is INTENTIONAL DECEIT.

Which, the way I spell it, is a lie


Rog -- Evan Longoria, Andrew McCutchen, Austin Jackson, Derek Holland. Building blocks. If we want to feel lied to, that's our perogative.

In the end, the result is the same. And it hasn't been pretty.

Here's a good one. The Mariners have been playing at historical highs in the clutch, and the Dodgers have been playing at historical lows. This is a big surprise, but the Giants rank third, right behind the Red Sox, but far behind the record-threatening Mariners.



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