rog
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Post by rog on Mar 22, 2018 21:49:56 GMT -5
Jeff Samardzija is having an MRI performed on his shoulder. Mark mentioned it to me. If Holland doesn't have anything left in the tank, the Giants' general management will certainly be in dutch.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
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Post by sfgdood on Mar 22, 2018 23:54:14 GMT -5
Jeff haters must be happy about this
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Post by Islandboagie on Mar 23, 2018 0:27:28 GMT -5
That's what happens when you don't get in playing condition before spring training. Lack of drive, lack of passion.
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Post by Islandboagie on Mar 23, 2018 0:41:06 GMT -5
Randy- Jeff haters must be happy about this
Boagie- I don't hate Jeff Samardjiza. I just see him for the underachieving, lack of anything remotely qualifying him as a potential champion, player that he is.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Mar 23, 2018 0:48:46 GMT -5
Sounds like you're talking about Belt
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Post by Islandboagie on Mar 23, 2018 0:54:05 GMT -5
Belt has 2 rings, Samardjiza has zero.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Mar 23, 2018 1:17:23 GMT -5
Lots of grovellers have rings...lot of HOFers have none...what's your point?
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rog
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Post by rog on Mar 23, 2018 7:05:47 GMT -5
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rog
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Post by rog on Mar 23, 2018 7:06:50 GMT -5
Aren't you guys arguing at a child's level?
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Post by klaiggeb on Mar 23, 2018 10:39:45 GMT -5
I, too, see Jeffy as a perennial under achiever.
Great stuff... never fulfilled what he should have
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Mar 23, 2018 10:54:45 GMT -5
I wouldn't say never...he's put together some solid to dominant seasons. But yes, he has been inconsistent for much of his career
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Post by Islandboagie on Mar 23, 2018 10:57:30 GMT -5
Name a dominant season?
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Mar 23, 2018 11:03:47 GMT -5
2014 was his best season as a starter, when he combined for a 2.99 ERA between Chicago and Oakland. He also had some very nice seasons early in his career mostly as a reliever
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Post by Islandboagie on Mar 23, 2018 13:44:14 GMT -5
7-13 with a 2.99 ERA isn't my definition of dominating. Perhaps it's yours.
I realize a number of you guys really like Samardjiza, thats fine. I don't hate the guy, but with the Giants and throughout his career he's been very mediocre, and the mediocre title I give him is more aimed at his better seasons. Outside of his split season with Oakland and Chicago, he's been more of a 4th or 5th pitcher. I don't like the idea of paying 19 mil for a guy that should be a 4th or 5th starter, especially one that has to pitch in the 3rd slot because we don't have someone better. That was my initial point, the Giants should have focused on getting a #3 and pushing Samardjiza back to #4.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Mar 23, 2018 15:12:39 GMT -5
Actually I do consider that dominant...if you do not it's because you are still under the false impression that w/l record is meaningful for a pitcher. It isn't. The fact that Jeff gives innings pitched he has a much better chance at getting decisions than other pitchers...and if his teammates do not give him support, that will more likely wind up being a loss than a win through little to no fault of his own. Last year only the upper echelon of starting pitchers had a lower ERA than 2.99.
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Post by Islandboagie on Mar 23, 2018 17:00:30 GMT -5
Randy- Actually I do consider that dominant...if you do not it's because you are still under the false impression that w/l record is meaningful for a pitcher. It isn't.
Boagie- You don't think a pitcher cares if his team is ahead when he leaves the game?
C'mon, Randy. You're not that far gone from reality.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Mar 23, 2018 17:13:47 GMT -5
Of course they want a win when they can get it...but when they are on the mound, it mostly is just about putting up as many zeroes as they can. The rest is up to the offense.
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rog
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Post by rog on Mar 24, 2018 9:53:57 GMT -5
7-13 with a 2.99 ERA isn't my definition of dominating. Perhaps it's yours. Rog -- You don't get it, do you Boagie? Wins and losses are a TEAM stat. At the end of April, Jeff was 0-3 with a 1.98 ERA. At the end of May, he was 1-4 with a 1.68 ERA. Are you beginning to see a pattern developing here? You may be right, by the way, that his season wasn't dominant. But it was darn good. Let me ask you this: Matt Cain was many games below .500. Was he a below-average pitcher (as his won-loss record suggests) or a very good one? Run support DOES matter to a pitcher. It matters a lot. Just ask Kirk Rueter. Or Matt Cain. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/4352/jeff-gets-samardzija-ed#ixzz5Ag5aJD58
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Post by Islandboagie on Mar 24, 2018 11:29:18 GMT -5
Rog- Let me ask you this: Matt Cain was many games below .500. Was he a below-average pitcher (as his won-loss record suggests) or a very good one?
Boagie- He was a good pitcher, between 2010 and 2012 he was very good. But I don't think I'd consider him ever dominant.
Tim Lincecum was dominant between 2008 and 2011...if the offense gave him 3 runs, he'd hold the opponent to 2 runs or less. If the offense gave him 1 run he'd pitch a shutout. He won regardless of the help he received.
I love Matty, but he was no Lincecum.
Samardjiza gives up leads, or takes his team out of the game by the 3rd inning. To me that's not dominant or good.
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Post by klaiggeb on Mar 24, 2018 15:47:27 GMT -5
Rog, I have to agree with boagie here.
Cain was very good between 2010-2012, but dominant?
No.
I couldn't ever say that about him.
boly
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rog
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Post by rog on Mar 24, 2018 20:14:00 GMT -5
Randy- Actually I do consider that dominant...if you do not it's because you are still under the false impression that w/l record is meaningful for a pitcher. It isn't. Boagie- You don't think a pitcher cares if his team is ahead when he leaves the game? C'mon, Randy. You're not that far gone from reality. Rog -- Straw man's argument, Boagie. That's not what Randy said. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/4352/jeff-gets-samardzija-ed#ixzz5AidBhWXx
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rog
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Post by rog on Mar 24, 2018 20:22:11 GMT -5
Boagie- He was a good pitcher, between 2010 and 2012 he was very good. But I don't think I'd consider him ever dominant. Rog -- Again Boagie, a straw man's argument. No one said Matt was dominant. I believe what we said that he was good or very good. Matt was quite good from 2009 through 2012. Over that period, his ERA was lower than Madison Bumgarner's career mark. He was good from 2005 through 2008, and again in 2013. After that he was pretty much done. Over his entire career he was good to very good. Boly likes Jack Sanford, and I would liken Matt to Jack. Matt's ERA wound up at 3.68, and Jack's at 3.69. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/4352/jeff-gets-samardzija-ed?page=1#ixzz5AidWRp1j
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rog
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Post by rog on Mar 24, 2018 20:25:11 GMT -5
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Post by Islandboagie on Mar 24, 2018 21:49:23 GMT -5
Rog -- Again Boagie, a straw man's argument. No one said Matt was dominant.
Boagie- But Randy did say Samardjiza's 7-13 record and 2.99 ERA was dominant, and you agreed. So if those numbers are dominant, why is Matt Cain not dominant?
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rog
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Post by rog on Mar 24, 2018 22:03:37 GMT -5
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rog
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Post by rog on Mar 24, 2018 22:14:52 GMT -5
Tim Lincecum was dominant between 2008 and 2011...if the offense gave him 3 runs, he'd hold the opponent to 2 runs or less. If the offense gave him 1 run he'd pitch a shutout. He won regardless of the help he received. Rog -- No one here likes Tim more than I, but what you say here Boagie just isn't so. Somehow, as great as he was between 2008 and 2011 Tim found a way to lose 36 games and post 34 no-decisions. As great as he was, he was the winning pitcher in fewer than half his games. In fact, in 2011 he actually finished below .500 -- despite a 2.74 ERA. Clearly he DIDN'T always win regardless of the help he received. Not even close. The Giants did finish 79-53 in his 132 starts, for a winning percentage of over .660. By the way, no pitcher has EVER "won regardless of the help he received." Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/4352/jeff-gets-samardzija-ed#ixzz5Aj4gM5kV
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rog
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Post by rog on Mar 24, 2018 22:25:05 GMT -5
Something about Jack Sanford: Although he was a very fine pitcher who wound up with a career 137-101 record, he recored 20 wins only once (in 1962 when he went a fabulousd 24-7) in a time where 20-win seasons weren't rare. He did win 19 when he was the Rookie of the Year in 1957 (for the Phillies).
In what was a very nice deal, the Giants traded Ruben Gomez and Valmy Thomas for Jack before the 1959 season. Ruben had been a fine pitcher and in fact won the Giants' opening game as the San Francisco Giants, 8-1, on April 15, 1958. I believe Orlando Cepeda hit a home run in that game, and Willie Mays went 1 for 4.
But after the trade, Ruben made only 19 more major league starts. Thomas, a catcher from the Puerto Rico, played onlu 101 more gamdes.
Sanford pitched 6+ seasons for the Giants, going 89-67 with a 3.61 ERA.
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rog
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Post by rog on Mar 24, 2018 22:28:51 GMT -5
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Post by Islandboagie on Mar 24, 2018 23:49:18 GMT -5
Rog -- Again Boagie, a straw man's argument. No one said Matt was dominant.
Boagie- But Randy did say Samardjiza's 7-13 record and 2.99 ERA was dominant, and you agreed.
Rog -- Sometimes I wonder why people here think I say something when I don't.
Boagie- You're correct, you didn't say that, but Randy did and you did appear to come to his defense.
I do apologize though.
But listen, I'm not stupid, I realize Samardjiza isn't the worst pitcher in baseball.
But let's look at who Jeff really is. He's a guy that was tied for lead in losses in the NL last season. That is not a leaderboard I want my #3 starter to be topping out on. It's not even those losses, as much as the way those losses happened. But I'll get back to that.
I liked Matt Cain in his early years because he fought hard for those wins, and he fought hard to keep the Giants in it during his no decisions and losses too. I remember Cain losing a game he'd pitched beautifully against Boston. Manny Ramirez hit a solo shot and the Giants lost 1-0. I felt for him after that. But what really impressed me about Cain was not his ERA or WHIP..it was his demeanor. It was the fact that he'd come out the next time and give it everything he had all over again. It wasn't about his ERA while his team sucked, it was his unwavering obsession to be ready for when the Giants didn't suck.
I don't care about the ERAs or any stat you have ready to respond to this post with, Rog, so save it. I care about what I see on the field. The drive to win.
Matt Cain had it. Jeff Samardjiza? Nope.
Jeff gets rattled by the pressure of having a lousy offense. He probably hopes for the Giants to score more, Matt's demeanor showed he had to leave the game with a lead, or he was upset at himself for not doing better.
Jeff Samardjiza gets pulled from the game while losing, and he gets up on the top step and jokes around with the other guys.
Matt Cain is the type of guy that tips his cap to the Mets fans after nearly killing David Wright with a fastball off his head.
That might be a little extreme, but we need competitors like that.
Enough with the joking around in the dugout after you get shelled. Enough with the tweeters and twits. Enough with hearing about how how good a rapper Beede is. It's time for these guys to drop the bullshit and get to work, starting NOW.
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rog
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Post by rog on Mar 25, 2018 23:18:16 GMT -5
But let's look at who Jeff really is. He's a guy that was tied for lead in losses in the NL last season. That is not a leaderboard I want my #3 starter to be topping out on.
Rog -- This doesn't literally apply to the game now, but it used to be said that a pitcher had to be pretty good to lose 20 games. The idea was that if the pitcher wasn't decent, he wouldn't be out there enough to lose 20. I don't know the last time a pitcher lost 20, but it must be a long time ago. But when your team ties for the most losses in baseball, one might expect one of its pitchers to lead the league in losses.
I don't think anyone has yet explained how Jeff's record means more than Madison's does, when Jeff had easily the higher win percentage than Madison.
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