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Post by klaiggeb on Dec 15, 2017 16:09:57 GMT -5
You'd be right.
But more to the point, with what part of my comparison do you disagree?
He IS 2017 version of Eck.
Kruk can't stand the stat either, Rog, so why do you agree with it?
boly
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rog
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Post by rog on Dec 15, 2017 16:39:40 GMT -5
But more to the point, with what part of my comparison do you disagree? Rog -- I've got to give you credit here, Boly. You got the discussion back on track. I honestly don't know what to think of the Eckersley comparison. Perhaps I can take the time to look back at the reasons for Dennis' dramatic change in roles. You are absolutely right that he worked out very well as a reliever, although I was surprised to see that his career ERA in that role was a high as 2.85. Still very good though. For a little while he pitched as well as any reliever has ever pitched. And I'm not sure that you aren't right that a switch to relief could increase Jeff's concentration and provide good results. I do know that while his propensity for home runs, especially last season and in 2015, is disturbing, he showed some excellent signs as a starter last season. It wouldn't be a complete shocker if he became a top starter next season. I understand your thinking here, and I certainly don't think it's totally wrong. But I do believe that Jeff is a better starter than you give him credit for and that it is possible he is on the verge -- even at age 32 -- of coming into his own. I also believe it's very hard for a reliever to contribute as much as a starter. The leverage can be high, but the innings just aren't there for a reliever. One contribution Jeff made this past season -- and the four seasons before it -- was to give the bullpen a little more rest. That contribution is more subtle, but it almost certainly improved the overall performance of the bullpen by giving them more rest. That's an intangible contribution, but I'm pretty sure it's real. Another issue is that the Giants are having plenty of rotation problems as it is. Given Bumgarner's injury, one could easily argue that Jeff was the Giants' most valuable starter last season. He pitched 33 more innings than any other Giants starter. He pitched 60 more innings than Johnny Cueto and 97 more than Madison Bumgarner. I would need to know too how Jeff would suddenly become highly focused in his first inning of pitching as a reliever when he's gotten bad results -- especially last season -- in his first inning of starts. I know we disagree here, but the Giants could engineer a minor trade and bring George Kontos back to fortify the bullpen. Yet they'd pay dearly to get a guy who pitches as well as Jeff in the rotation. And if Jeff reaches the potential he flashed last season, they might not be able to get an equivalent starter at all. Jeff is 32. We're getting tired of talking about his potential. But should we ignore that he led the NL innings pitched, finished 9th in the entire major leagues in WHIP and finished 4th in the ratio of strikeouts to walks. He had the lowest walk rate in the majors and posted one of his best seasons in strikeouts. ERA is important, but it is far from the only pitcher evaluation tool. In some of the important evaluations, Jeff was at or close to the best in baseball. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/4189/#ixzz51MmqagI0
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rog
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Post by rog on Dec 15, 2017 16:47:10 GMT -5
As for the "quality start" stat, I try to use it for what it is. Perhaps it should be renamed "OK start." But whatever it's called, it a measure of consistency. We've heard it said of a pitcher, he just needs to pitch well enough to keep us in the ballgame. A quality start pretty much does that.
Remember how I have often said that stats don't lie, but sometimes they are misinterpreted. We need to interpret a "quality start" for what it is -- not what it may not be.
We could come up with a stat that says a pitcher must pitch at least seven innings in which he gives up no more than two earned runs. Let's call it an "excellent start." That would have significance too, and obviously be a much narrower definiton than that of a quality start.
By the way, I didn't say in my post that I agreed with the "quality start" stat. I simply stated that Jeff had 20 of them in his 32 starts. I can cite some fairly sophisticated stats, but "quality starts" is one that is widely understood.
Jeff pitched better last season than many of us give him credit for. His ERA was higher than we would have liked, but there were a lot of things he did very, very well.
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Post by klaiggeb on Dec 15, 2017 20:17:41 GMT -5
Starters prepare differently than relievers.
Not just physically, but mentally.
Starters can go through their routine, take their time... nothing to worry about, they KNOW when the game starts.
Relievers don't.
Now I'm not advocating making him a closer at this time, but I do contend that with his gas, and durability, he's better served in the pen.
boly
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rog
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Post by rog on Dec 16, 2017 1:03:32 GMT -5
Maybe Jeff simply needs to turn his warm ups into whirlwinds and then cut them short.
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Post by klaiggeb on Dec 16, 2017 10:54:55 GMT -5
Doesn't work that way when you're a starter, Rog.
That 'starter' mentality just doesn't go away WHEN you're a starter.
I've been there, Rog. I've done both. I speak from personal experience.
and I did it a FAR LESS THAN Major League level.
I can only imagine, based upon my experience, what it's like at THAT level.
boly
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Post by Islandboagie on Dec 16, 2017 12:53:25 GMT -5
Since you've been a pitcher and played competitive sports, Boly, you'll maybe understand my reluctancy to believe Samardjiza can be successful in any role. Samardjiza lacks emotion. He lacks fire, guts and anything you're looking for in a professional athlete. That's my main problem with Samardjiza.
You can't tell by looking at his face or body language if he just pitched a complete game shutout or got shelled and knocked out in the 3rd inning. He's the Brandon Belt of pitchers. In a lesser role he's ok I guess, but he's never going to be the great dominating competitor that we hope for.
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Post by klaiggeb on Dec 16, 2017 18:15:06 GMT -5
Or the Marc Bulger, for a quarterback reference.
No emotion, no leadership.
Then again, JT wasn't exactly a fire ball either, boagie.
boly
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rog
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Post by rog on Dec 16, 2017 21:55:35 GMT -5
You can't tell by looking at his face or body language if he just pitched a complete game shutout or got shelled and knocked out in the 3rd inning. Rog -- When a guy is successful, that is called poise and the ability to remain calm no matter what the circumstances. Then again, if you can keep your head while all about you are losing theirs ... you don't understand the situation. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/4189/?page=2#ixzz51U0XfyWO
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Post by Islandboagie on Dec 16, 2017 22:28:26 GMT -5
No, poise is on the field, I am talking about the way he carries himself after he's been taken out. I wouldn't expect you to understand, Rog. In fact you gave me exactly what I figured your response was going to be. One that showed very little insight into the game beyond the numbers.
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rog
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Post by rog on Dec 17, 2017 10:56:48 GMT -5
I understand what you're saying here, Boagie. If a pitcher is going to show emotion, after he is pulled might be the time he would show it most. I can't think of a specific example, but there have been some pretty cool cookies over time.
You've read, haven't you, about players who are seething on the inside but are calm on the outside? This is going way back, but think of the way Hank Aaron composed himself on the field? On home run #715 he had to be concerned about the possibility of being attacked (and a fan did indeed jump onto the field and briefly run the bases with him), but there seemed to be no joy on his face -- and you know he had to be figuratively jumping up and down inside.
It's hard to find players like that today, since players are much more open in their celebrations, to the point where some have been criticized here for going too far.
The one example I can think of that might show how Jeff burns inside is how hard he ran out into fray when the Hunter Strickland fight broke out. So hard that he concussed Mike Morse.
Here's an example of an excellent player who doesn't show his emotions much. Buster Posey was implacable during that fray, even standing outside the mosh pit of players. How much emotion do we see Buster display? Think he doesn't burn on the inside? He's more old-school.
When I played, I didn't show emotion, but no one hated to lose more. When my team lost, I could barely sleep that night. I was on edge for hours. On the other hand, while I paid attention to how good a game I had, my inside emotion on my performance somehow wasn't anything close to my emotion about the game. I hadn't thought about it, and I don't know why it was.
Players do show their emotions far more these days. But do you think anything less of Buster Posey because he rarely does so? Buster's not a pitcher, but I'll bet if he were, he wouldn't show much emotion coming off the mound. If he did, it would be out of character to the way he reacts on the outside now.
One think I will say is that I will pay more attention to Jeff in this regard. But he certainly seemed to be showing true emotion when he went helmet-to-helmet with Mike Morse.
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rog
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Post by rog on Dec 17, 2017 10:59:33 GMT -5
As far as numbers, Boagie, there were none involved in how much emotion Jeff shows, although the Russian judge just weighed in with a 2.5. Clearly he wasn't impressed with the emotion Jeff showed.
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Post by donk33 on Dec 18, 2017 15:16:23 GMT -5
I understand what you're saying here, Boagie. If a pitcher is going to show emotion, after he is pulled might be the time he would show it most. I can't think of a specific example, but there have been some pretty cool cookies over time. You've read, haven't you, about players who are seething on the inside but are calm on the outside? This is going way back, but think of the way Hank Aaron composed himself on the field? On home run #715 he had to be concerned about the possibility of being attacked (and a fan did indeed jump onto the field and briefly run the bases with him), but there seemed to be no joy on his face -- and you know he had to be figuratively jumping up and down inside. It's hard to find players like that today, since players are much more open in their celebrations, to the point where some have been criticized here for going too far. The one example I can think of that might show how Jeff burns inside is how hard he ran out into fray when the Hunter Strickland fight broke out. So hard that he concussed Mike Morse. Here's an example of an excellent player who doesn't show his emotions much. Buster Posey was implacable during that fray, even standing outside the mosh pit of players. How much emotion do we see Buster display? Think he doesn't burn on the inside? He's more old-school. dk...Buster pitched in college..... I wish I could have learned to control my temper when I pitched in high school...In my first start, I had the bases full and 2 strikes on a batter...I put a curve ball right over the plate (In my Opinion)...and the ump called it 3 balls....I scaled my glove at the ump and went nuts....after the raving died down, I was expecting to be thrown out of the game...instead, the ump told my coach to control him.... this umpire later worked for the Dodgers as head umpire in their spring training camp.....also, this guy was the head of recreation at Sing Sing prison...the "Big House"...up the river in all the gangster movies....Jessie Collier...I once pitched a game with the other team's coaches brother as ump....but that is another story... Players do show their emotions far more these days. But do you think anything less of Buster Posey because he rarely does so? Buster's not a pitcher, but I'll bet if he were, he wouldn't show much emotion coming off the mound. If he did, it would be out of character to the way he reacts on the outside now. One think I will say is that I will pay more attention to Jeff in this regard. But he certainly seemed to be showing true emotion when he went helmet-to-helmet with Mike Morse.
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Post by Islandboagie on Dec 18, 2017 17:59:46 GMT -5
Rog- Here's an example of an excellent player who doesn't show his emotions much. Buster Posey was implacable during that fray, even standing outside the mosh pit of players. How much emotion do we see Buster display? Think he doesn't burn on the inside? He's more old-school. Boagie- Poor example. Buster isn't all smiles when he plays poorly or the Giants are losing.
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Post by Islandboagie on Dec 18, 2017 18:01:33 GMT -5
Again, Rog. You don't understand, and that's ok. You also think the Giants success in 2010, 2012, and 2014 was luck, so it's not a surprise you don't quite pick up on these things.
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Post by rog on Dec 19, 2017 13:00:11 GMT -5
I have to ask, Boagie. Is Jeff all smiles when he and/or the Giants have played poorly?
As for this thing about luck in 2010, 2012 and 2014, I would appreciate it if you guys could get straight what I said. I said PART of the Giants' success was luck. They got hot at the right time. We saw with the Giants in 2016 how teams can get really hot (first half) or really cold (second half).
If part of the Giants' success in the first five years of the decade weren't luck, they almost certainly would have posted a record clearly better than their .539 winning percentage.
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rog
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Post by rog on Dec 19, 2017 13:03:52 GMT -5
When you say I don't understand, Boagie, what you're really saying here is that my opinion differs from yours.
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