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Post by Rog on Nov 20, 2017 6:22:56 GMT -5
It has been well documented that the Giants had a big fall off defensively last season. The Fielding Bible Awards, where the Giants fared well in 2016, demonstrated this. They also showed that one player, Brandon Belt, may have improved his fielding.
Buster Posey won the Fielding Bible Award behind the plate in 2016. This season he finished 8th.
Belt may have been the only Giant to improve. He moved up to #2.
Joe Panik dropped off to 15th.
Brandon Crawford remained strong at #3.
The only other Giants to receive even one vote were Jeff Samardzija and Eduardo Nunez. Samardzija tied for 19th among pitcher, and while Nunez didn't receive a single vote at any of the positions he played, his versatility earned him a tie for #24 among multi-position players.
The winners by position were:
P Dallas Keuchel
C Martin Maldonado
1B Paul Goldschmidt
2B D.J. Lemahieu
SS Andrelton Simmons
3B Nolan Arenado
LF Brett Gardner
CF Byron Buxton
RF Mookie Betts
MP Javier Baez (Multi-Position)
With the Giants looking for center fielders, here were the top 10 at that position:
1. Buxton (Twins)
2. Kevin Kiermaier (Rays)
3. Kevin Pillar (Blue Jays)
4. Billy Hamilton (Reds)
5. Jackie Bradley, Jr. (Red Sox)
6. Juan Lagares (Mets)
7. Jarrod Dyson (Free Agent)
8. Ender Inciarte (Braves)
9. Lorenzo Cain (Free Agent)
10. Michael Taylor (Nationals)
Along the line, I've seen all ten associated with the Giants except for Pillar and Enciarte. Bradley, Jr. and Cain have been the most often mentioned.
Let's suppose the Giants traded Samardzija in a three-way trade that netted them Giancarlo Stanton. Let's further suppose they ate some of Denard Span's contract and were able to trade him away for cost saving and an incidental prospect. Trading Samardzija would deplete the rotation, but with the money the Giants saved in such a trade, they could potentially sign pitcher Tyler Chatwood and still have money left over.
The Giants would have Chatwood on the mound instead of Samardzija. Chatwood has only a 4.31 career ERA, but he's been a victim of Coors Field. His career ERA on the road is a full run lower, at 3.31. Not to say that Chatwood is in Madison Bumgarner's class, but Madison's career ERA on the road is 3.22. Samardzija's is 4.21.
They would of course net Stanton.
Trading Jeff Samardzija would diminish the rotation, but with the money the Giants saved in such a trade, they could potentially sign pitcher Tyler Chatwood.
They would have to rely on Steven Duggar in center field. They would have Hunter Pence, Austin Slater and Jarrett Parker to match up in left field. They would have a battle between Christian Arroyo, Pablo Sandoval and Kelby Tomlinson for third base or a third base platoon.
The Giants would lose prospects in the Stanton deal, but that would be diminished by the prospects the Marlins would receive as part of the three-way deal.
The plan is less than perfect, without a big increase in payroll over what they are already expecting, the Giants would have added Stanton without fully depleting the farm system. Maybe they would decide to up the payroll a little and sign a mid-priced outfielder, possibly Dyson as a bridge to Duggar and as a speedy outfielder who can play any of the three positions. Or maybe sign Todd Frazier for third base. Or maybe a mid-level power-hitting outfielder.
The Giants could then fashion a batting order of something like:
Duggar CF
Panik 2B
Stanton RF
Posey C
Belt 1B
Crawford SS
Pence, etc. LF
Arroyo, etc. 3B
The lineup would potentially have four right-handed hitters and four lefties. (Duggar bats left-handed.) Unlike most teams, they shouldn't be vulnerable to southpaw pitchers, since most of the lefty hitters have fared decently against lefties, and both Posey and especially Stanton (career 1.025 OPS against left-handers) crush southpaws.
If Pence or Arroyo could hit, the Giants could break up the right-handed and left-handed pairings and would likely do so against southpaws at any rate.
The keys would be that Duggar and Arroyo develop. That Pence and friends could hold down left field until one of the young outfield prospects, maybe Slater, is ready. That Arroyo or a platoon of Sandoval and Arroyo could do a decent job at the hot corner. That, moved to a pitchers' park from a hitters' park, Chatwood effectively replaces Samardzija.
Ideally the Giants would spend extra money. But the above plan allows them to add baseball's highest contract without adding much payroll. Anything beyond that would be a bonus.
I'm thinking that for the middle of the night, this isn't a horrible plan. I'm sure some of you will want to take a crack at it, and let's see if together we can improve on it. The plan is far from foolproof, but it has specifics (Stanton, Chatwood and trading Samardzija in a three-way trade to provide the Marlins some of the prospects they want to make the deal.) and might provide a decent solution without adding much payroll.
Why don't you guys take a shot at it and hopefully come up with an even better, specific plan. As with the Giants themselves, we need ideas from every corner. Let's brainstorm!
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Post by Rog on Nov 20, 2017 6:36:20 GMT -5
The more I'm thinking about this, the more I dig the idea. It counts on Chatwood, but he almost certainly will improve by substituting AT&T for Coors. It relies on Duggar and Arroyo, but they're the top two Giants position prospects that are anywhere close to the majors. Without them, it's unlikely any plan can succeed unless it adds considerable payroll that the Giants don't want to spend.
This plan nets them Stanton and does so in a way (it may require a little more tweaking) that doesn't blow the payroll budget out of the water. Another potential weakness is that Chatwood may wind up with a very big contract himself, but I've seen him projected at 3/$20 and at 3/$30. Either of those numbers would free up a lot of dollars compared to Samardzija's contract.
As an aside, do you notice, Boagie, that I'm recommending trading Samardzija while at the same time showing he's a much better pitcher than you seem to think? Do you honestly think a Four A pitcher can pitch nearly as well as a guy who signed for 5/$90?
Remember too that I originally opposed the signing. When I receive new facts, I'm not above changing my opinion. And I'm usually able to remain objective about a player -- even Tim Lincecum if you will recall.
I'm not building myself up here. Goodness knows I have plenty of flaws. But I do hope I am able to help you to become more objective and more willing to accept new information.
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Post by Islandboagie on Nov 20, 2017 10:47:31 GMT -5
It would be very difficult to get Stanton without giving up Panik. I'm sure they are demanding Panik be in the deal. If by a miracle the Giants can get Stanton for just the mid/lower level prospects they have, I'm not sure I'd still be interested.
The Giants have a few positions that need to be filled, just adding Stanton won't make us better enough to compete. I like Duggar, but I'm not sure he's ready. Pence can't cover RF anymore, We're not sure we have a viable 3rd baseman, our bullpen is iffy at best. Too many question marks swirling around to put all our eggs in left field. Let's remember here that Stanton hasn't exactly been an ironman, would we be seeing him on the bench a lot of the time? Not to mention that 300 mil contract could potentially hamstring the organization for the next decade.
I do however like the Chatwood upgrade over Samardjiza.
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Post by klaiggeb on Nov 20, 2017 13:27:04 GMT -5
I am a Chatwood fan, and pitching outside of Coors, even though he's done well there, can only help him get better.
Like you, Boagie, I wonder HOW, and with WHOM we cover all the holes... holes that are there whether we get Stanton or not.
Pence was below average to AWFUL in RF last year, and Stanton, from what I can remember, wouldn't be an improvement out there.
He's got a great arm, but to play OUR RF, you need to be able to run and cover a lot of ground.
As you pointed out; so many IFs...
Or, so many "I thinks..."
I 'think' Arroyo will be very good at 3B.
I 'think' he can hit 12-18 HRs as he matures...
I 'think' Duggar can make it in CF...
And then there's the bullpen.
Too many holes, and signing Stanton, I believe, accentuates the problem because we WON'T be able to afford the cost to surround him with players.
Which means that signing Stanton is just a management ploy to GET fans back into the seats.
No post season for a while.
Don't even DREAM of the World Series for a while If...if that's their plan.
And right now, I fear it is.
boly
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Post by Islandboagie on Nov 20, 2017 14:34:44 GMT -5
Apparently the Giants have offered Panik, Shaw and Beede for Stanton.
From the Marlins point of view, I don't believe this is enough to get it done.
From the Giants point of view, I hope they focus their energy elsewhere now.
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Post by Islandboagie on Nov 20, 2017 15:00:17 GMT -5
I'm sorry, it was for Stanton and Gordon...not gonna happen.
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Post by klaiggeb on Nov 20, 2017 17:55:35 GMT -5
I saw the same article, boagie, and if they're desperately trying to dump salary, Gordon is owed 37 million+, it could happen.
Then again, HOW do WE ABSORB 290 +37 million?
boly
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Post by Islandboagie on Nov 20, 2017 18:59:07 GMT -5
We don't know how desperate they are. I'd be surprised if they don't get a more attractive offer from someone else.
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Post by Rog on Nov 21, 2017 6:04:23 GMT -5
The Giants seem to have backed themselves into a corner where they almost have to gamble. Not only were they about as bad last season as a major league team gets, they have also lost much of the fan goodwill they built with their three championships. Without a quick rebound, they appear to be in danger of having a precipitous fall in attendance.
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Post by Rog on Nov 21, 2017 6:06:57 GMT -5
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Post by Rog on Nov 21, 2017 6:20:13 GMT -5
Pence was below average to AWFUL in RF last year, and Stanton, from what I can remember, wouldn't be an improvement out there. He's got a great arm, but to play OUR RF, you need to be able to run and cover a lot of ground. Rog -- This is where I worry about judging defense based on what we "see." Stanton DOES cover ground, and he ranked 5th in The Fielding Bible Awards. While Gold Gloves aren't usually as accurate, Giancarlo was a Gold Glove finalist as well. Last season his speed was just behind that of Gregory Polanco, who is a base stealer, and Jason Heyward, who has been considered a premier defensive right fielder throughout his career. At AT&T, Stanton plays about as far off the right field line as anyone I've seen, yet he has the speed and judgment to get back to the line pretty well. I think it is quite reasonable to set aside most of your concerns about Giancarlo's defense. By the way, Pence is still the faster of the two, but Stanton's ball judgment is far better. If Giancarlo does come to the Giants, Hunter will move to left, quite possibly in a platoon with Span. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/4154/fielding-bible-awards-giants?page=1#ixzz4z3zfTiKK |
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Post by Rog on Nov 21, 2017 6:24:56 GMT -5
I'm sorry, it was for Stanton and Gordon...not gonna happen. Rog -- Henry Schulman says the deal is quite different from the Mish version. Quite likely there is more than one deal on the table. With regard to the Mish deal, it seems Heliot Ramos would likely be involved as well as the other pieces. As I mentioned, if I were the Giants, I would try to include Samardzija or Cueto in a three-way deal, allowing the third team to provide some of the prospects the Marlins want. The Giants are simply short on prospects, while the Cardinals in particular have the young pitching the Marlins apparently covet. If the Dodgers enter the fray, it's likely all over. They have the ability to absorb the contract, and they have the prospects to trade. Plus, LA is probably Stanton's favorite destination. SF may be #2. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/4154/fielding-bible-awards-giants?page=1#ixzz4z42u43Ld |
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Post by Rog on Nov 21, 2017 6:28:24 GMT -5
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Post by Rog on Nov 21, 2017 6:37:41 GMT -5
And then there's the bullpen. Too many holes Rog -- I think the Giants will fortify the bullpen, but I don't see as many holes as some. The return of Will Smith should help a lot, and I think D.J. Snelten -- added to the 40-man roster on Monday -- should make a nice LOOGY, with potential for more. A healthy Melancon to close, along with Dyson and Strickland as set up men, isn't bad. Throw in Stratton or (preferably) Blach, plus Cory Gearrin, Derek Law or perhaps a trade or free agent addition, and we've got a bullpen. One that might be pretty decent. Melancon, Dyson, Strickland, Smith and Snelten have the potential to form a good back end for the pen. And I still like Blach (.566 OPS against lefty hitters, 32 points lower than Sandy Koufax) for at least a little LOOGY action, just as I think Snelten has the potential to become an Affeldt surrogate. Assuming his arm is strong and healthy, Smith should be BETTER than Jeremy. Misses a lot more bats. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/4154/fielding-bible-awards-giants?page=1#ixzz4z44xBrwt |
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Post by Rog on Nov 21, 2017 6:41:06 GMT -5
I 'think' Arroyo will be very good at 3B. I 'think' he can hit 12-18 HRs as he matures... Rog -- Christian hit great at Sacramento last season, but after a decent start, failed in SF. If he reaches his stated goal of waiting for more good pitches to hit, he might be good. But thus far he hasn't shown much power or ability to draw even a modicum of walks. While contact has been his strength (although ironically perhaps also his obstacle to better hitting and more power), with the Giants he struck out a lot. I would rather have Panik. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/4154/fielding-bible-awards-giants?page=1#ixzz4z47Le0xv |
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Post by Rog on Nov 21, 2017 6:47:56 GMT -5
Christian has 24 carer homers in the equivalent of four full seasons. It's likely he'll just about always be deficient for a corner infielder in hitting homers. If he averages 15, I think that would be a huge accomplishment for him.
Now, his effort to become more patient could kick in and change things. But thus far in two years IIRC, it hasn't done so to a great degree.
Christian also has all of 95 walks in his four equivalent seasons. I don't see much of anything that makes him odds-on to be a good hitter for a corner infielder. I've been willing to trade him for at least a couple of years now. Probably longer than that.
Unless a guy hits .320, he's pretty much got to draw walks and hit with some power. I don't see Christian hitting .320; I don't see him drawing walks; and I don't see him hitting with power. I'm not sure I see him as a much better hitter than Brandon Crawford has been the past three and a half seasons.
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Post by Rog on Nov 21, 2017 6:49:33 GMT -5
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Post by klaiggeb on Nov 21, 2017 11:50:02 GMT -5
You keep right on looking at the 'numbers' in the fielding bible, Rog, and I'll keep using my eyes.
When it comes to judging range, my eyes are right, the bible is wrong.
The bible CAN'T measure jump, CAN'T factor in where a guy was playing when the ball was hit.
Too many variables to judge soley on numbers.
We'll never be able to prove it, but I'll pick my team with my eyes, you use your numbers and I'll beat your team 7 of 10 times.
boly
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Post by Rog on Nov 21, 2017 13:35:18 GMT -5
You keep right on looking at the 'numbers' in the fielding bible, Rog, and I'll keep using my eyes. When it comes to judging range, my eyes are right, the bible is wrong. Rog -- What you're saying is that while watching less baseball than experts or near-experts, you're a better judge than they are? In addition, you don't know what The Fielding Bible thinks players' ranges are. In other words, you know more than something you don't even know what you're comparing your knowledge to. Or at least that's what you're saying. I can judge fielding about as well as you can. (Look at Stanton for example. He almost certainly has more range than you give him credit for.) But I don't think I know more than the experts. I use both my own eyes and the eyes of others who know more than I and/or see more of a player. Circling back to you, how can you know more about Stanton's range than someone who has watched every play he's made? You're comparing your knowledge to some who watch every play Stanton makes and have access to how long it took him to get his jump, how fast he ran and the precise route he took to the ball. You and I can't know all that. I don't think you understand how much knowledge is available to major league teams and sometimes to paid observers but not always to us, the baseball public. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/4154/fielding-bible-awards-giants#ixzz4z5ldP7Bw |
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Post by Rog on Nov 21, 2017 13:42:19 GMT -5
The bible CAN'T measure jump, CAN'T factor in where a guy was playing when the ball was hit.
Rog -- Yes it can -- precisely. It is you and I who can't tell with anything approaching the same accuracy. Reaction time to a baseball can and is measured to the thousandth of a second. Can our eyes come anywhere close to that?
Just what WAS Stanton's average reaction time last season? You and I have no way to know, but there are those who are closer to baseball than we are who CAN know that.
The Fielding Bible can measure jump much more accurately than you or I. Plus they make their judgments based on seeing all Giancarlo Stanton's plays, not just a small percentage as we do.
I'm beginning to see why you aren't giving this information revolution credit. You have little idea of what can and is being measured. I've shown tiny bits of it here, although I have little access to it myself.
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Post by Rog on Nov 21, 2017 13:47:12 GMT -5
Too many variables to judge soley on numbers. Rog -- Too many variables NOT to use the available numbers, some of which are far more precise than is humanly possible for our eyes or those of even the best baseball scout. A scout can tell us, for instance, whether a guy gets a good jump on a ball and to some degree how good that jump is. The numbers can measure that jump to at least a hundredth of a second. Eyes or precise measurements? You choose. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/4154/fielding-bible-awards-giants?page=1#ixzz4z5qaMots |
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Post by Rog on Nov 21, 2017 13:54:17 GMT -5
We all make mistakes, Boly, and I don't mean to pick on you here, but if your eyes are as good you say, wouldn't you have seen the Giants' 2017 outfield woes coming from a mile away? Wouldn't you have seen, for instance, that neither Jarrett Parker nor Mac Williamson was likely to develop into a good major league starting-caliber player? That Denard Span can't hit southpaw pitching?
NONE of us sees everything, which is why I study the game almost every day -- sometimes for hours.
I still wish I would run into the guy who told me right before the season began that he knew his opinion wasn't what people wanted to hear, but that the Giants needed to rebuild. Now THERE'S a guy I might be able to learn from. And he wasn't very old either.
I'd like to know what he saw (learned) and how he saw (learned) it. Maybe his eyes are better than yours and mine put together.
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Post by klaiggeb on Nov 21, 2017 21:31:30 GMT -5
I'm not having this argument with you again, Rog. I'm not.
You believe in all your numbers and you down play the "eye" test.
I like looking at numbers, but for ME, the final decision is based upon my eye test.
You can continue to make your points, points that I respect, but I will not be responding to them.
So if you're trying to convince me... you'll be just wasting your time.
Respectfully,
boly
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rog
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Post by rog on Nov 23, 2017 13:59:20 GMT -5
Well, I'll tell you what the eye test tells me myself. I can really only speak to a few players.
I still think the best defensive shortstop is Andrelton Simmons. I posted a week or so ago the things I felt Brandon Belt was best at or at least appeared to be best -- and I've watched a lot of highlights. When he gets to a ball in all but extreme circumstances, he's about as good as there is. He may be the smoothest of them all.
But there are likely balls that more athletic shortstops get to that he can't. And balls where they aren't over-extended, while he is. Simmons and Lindor come to mind, and there are probably others, including Addison Russell, whom many rate very close to the top. I haven't seen enough of Russell to give an informed opinion, but personally I think Simmons, Lindor and Crawford -- likely in that order -- are among the best shortstops ever. I rank Simmons ahead of Crawford because I've seen plays that Simmons made that Crawford hasn't. To a lesser extent that may be true of Lindor as well.
The play where Simmons may stand out most is tag plays. I saw a highlight of him catching an errant throw to third base that I'm not sure Crawford would have even gloved. Yet the athletic Simmons not only caught the ball, he somehow made a behind-the-back tag that had to be seen to be believed.
On most plays, Crawford seems as good as Simmons -- and even smoother. But if one watches highlight tapes, he sees Simmon doing things we haven't seen from Crawford.
At first base, Brandon Belt is very good. He has very good range, although like most rangy first basemen, he occasionally roams too far to his right. He's very good on short hop throws. Whether he's the best or not, I can't say, but I think Freddie Freeman is the best I've seen on stretches. Freddie does the splits, and I'm not sure I've seen other first basemen do that.
I was surprised when Joe Panik won his Gold Glove last season. Not that he might not have had a better season than B.J. LeMahieu, but Gold Glove awards sometimes are affected by a player's hitting as well as his defense, and LeMahieu is a better hitter, and particularly in 2016. I think Panik may be the best I've seen at the double play pivot, although I felt he (and Crawford) declined this past season. Joe more than Brandon.
I felt a year ago that we overrated Eduardo Nunez. IMO he made some plays look harder than they were, giving us a false illusion that he was a good third baseman, when in fact he's not. I suspect he did play his best defense of his career in the second half of 2016, but that's not necessarily saying a lot.
To me, Hunter Pence declined much earlier than last season. I don't remember when I felt it began, but it had to be at least three seasons ago now. His arm has long been weak for a right fielder.
Denard Span was very poor in the first half of 2016, and he has an arm reminiscent of Mickey Rivers. I thought he improved some in 2016's second half, but I may be wrong, since it certainly didn't carry over into 2017, when he was horrible. Perhaps more than any outfielder I can remember, he has a habit of falling just short on fly balls over his head, and I don't think he comes in well either.
I don't know enough about Giancarlo Stanton to make a highly informed judgement, but I have seen him play about as far off the line as any right fielder I've seen. Yet I'd rather have him going to the line than Hunter. I'm not overly informed, but that's my take.
Buster Posey seems particularly good on plays involving his hands, which may have contributed to his improved framing. This past season he may have gone the other way though.
Tim Lincecum was a lousy fielder for a guy as athletic as he. His over-extended follow through hurt him on balls up the middle, and he had a horrible pick off move. He was poor at covering first base, often simply failing to do so in time.
Jarrett Parker seems to be a better fielder than I thought, and certainly a fearless one. I'd like to see more though.
Pablo Sandoval has slowed down a lot. At this point, I think Buster Posey might make a better third baseman, although Buster would need to dive for more balls than he does at first base.
That is what I've "seen." Because I've watched and re-watched a lot of highlights by Simmons, Crawford and Lindor, I feel rather strongly that Simmons is the best of the trio. Because his athleticism may be as good as anyone at the position, I would take Lindor second. But all three are fabulous. I haven't seen enough to be anywhere near sure, but I suspect Russell is as well.
One thing I would like our posters to do if they feel Crawford is the best is watch Simmons' highlights in particular and see if they can honestly say they don't see plays made by Simmons that we haven't seen Crawford make -- or at least not as often. Andrelton's tags come most to mind, and the one play he makes from deeper in the hole than I've ever seen a shortstop make a positive play is another. He also appears to have the stronger arm, although both throw so hard that it's hard to tell for sure. Crawford may have a quicker transfer, and he sets in the hole better than anyone I can remember. He's also the best I've seen with the spin throw while going to his left.
Lindor may be the most athletic of the three. Simmons appears to have the best awareness, although Crawford is exceptional in that regard, as well. Simmons is great at going back on pop ups, but I think Crawford is even better. Brandon may not make more plays, but he makes them look easier.
Lindor is the fastest of the three, followed by Simmons. Brandon is quick, but he's surprisingly slow for a shortstop.
Anyway, that's what MY eyes see. I'm certainly open to what others see regarding those players. I really would like to see other watch the Simmons highlights. I do think he makes plays the others don't. If nothing else, there are far more highlights by Andrelton than the other two. I know there are some here who feel Brandon makes the routine play more consistently. I haven't seen enough of Simmons and Lindor to know.
I do know though that one group who have watched very play by every player has measured Simmons to be the best on the routine play. I think those here who feel that Simmons isn't as good as Crawford is better than Simmons on the routine play are likely making that judgment because they've seen Andrelton boot a routine ball or two.
I see no reason to believe they haven't. The measurement, play by play, shows Andrelton with 31 routine boots. Two or more could certainly be against the Giants. It shows Brandon with 56. Brandon has had about 8% more routine plays than Simmons.
I have seen Simmons make plays I haven't seen Crawford make, and those who have watched the two -- especially Simmons -- more than I have, have measured Andrelton as being even better than Brandon on routine plays. A former college pitcher, Simmons likely has the stronger arm. He can get a LOT on his throws both with jump throws and even from the seat of his pants.
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Post by klaiggeb on Nov 23, 2017 17:07:29 GMT -5
Roger, I did choose.
boly
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rog
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Post by rog on Nov 23, 2017 21:06:36 GMT -5
I know you (and Boagie at least) did choose among the shortstops. I'm curious about your thoughts on the other players. Also about my thought that Simmons' highlight film showed him making plays we haven't seen Brandon make.
I'm not trying to argue. Simply to see what your thoughts are. See how we compare. And if you haven't seen enough of any of these guys, that's fine too. I wish my judgments were based on more myself. In terms of highlights, I've seen the most of Simmons, since he has more and longer clips online. In terms of watching them on TV (mostly) or watching them live, it would of course be the Giants players.
With regard to Stanton, I recall being at a Giants/Marlins game and marveling at how far Giancarlo played off the line. I don't remember him not being able to cover the line, but I don't remember if or now often he was challenged.
I do believe he might be faster than we think. He's certainly no Dee Gordon or even Hunter Pence, but his speed is quite good for a guy his size. Based on the little I know about him defensively, I think Strat-O-Matic's 2 rating for his defense is accurate, although I think a 3 would be a little light.
I'm curious, by the way, as to what rating Strat-O-Matic gave to the other players I mentioned. And, for instance, if they downgraded a player such as Joe Panik, who had what I would consider a down season by a very good fielder. Maybe they haven't come out yet, but I'd be curious as to what they are when they do.
IIRC APBA had the same rating scale. APBA was a dice game, and I wonder how Strat-O-Matic is played. Maybe by a computerized game machine by now.
I'm curious too if they rated Manny Machado for a season or two as a shortstop. I presume as a third baseman he's 5. Adrian Beltre would have been a 5 earlier, but have they downgraded him as he's gotten older?
I've mentioned this before, but I would like your comment on whether Mark Belanger's excellent shortstop play allowed Brooks Robinson to play closer to the line, giving him an advantage of the great World Series plays he made on the line.
How do they rate Brandon Belt's defense? One first baseman who is apparently quite good that I didn't realize until recently is Carlos Santana. As a converted catcher, I wasn't expecting that much from him.
How does Strat-O-Matic rate Eduardo Nunez? Did they raise their rating for him last season?
How did they rate Brandon Crawford early in his career? How many years did it take for him to become a 5? I'm guessing that even if he did deserve a 5 earlier, it might have taken them at least a couple of years to see it.
It would be cool if you could run down the Stat-O-Matic ratings of the Giants position players. I know you consider them to be accurate, so I'd be quite interested in them.
Also, who would be the one or two players Strat-O-Matic surprised you most with their defensive ratings -- but on the plus side and on the negative?
I hadn't considered Strat-O-Matic as a source on defensive ratings, but they certainly would be.
One final question: How much of a player do you feel you have to see in order to form a solid judgment on his defense? Do you also use plays you see on ESPN or other sports news outlets?
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rog
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Post by rog on Nov 23, 2017 21:08:24 GMT -5
I meant, do you use WATCHING those plays in your judgments, not what ESPN might say about them.
What do you consider the best play or plays you've ever seen?
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Post by klaiggeb on Nov 25, 2017 15:33:28 GMT -5
I use the eye test watching shortstops, Rog. I can tell all that I need to know by watching how they set up for the ball, their feet work, their release and their accuracy.
Do they have soft hands, like Crawford or Vizquel, or rock-hard hands like Burriss?
I've seen so many great plays by Crawford, among others, but I'll never remember...Other than Mays' catch in the 54 world series.
And also Kevin Mitchel's one handed grab down the 3rd base line.
Throw in Panik's stop on that World Series DP, that's way up there, too.
boly
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Post by Islandboagie on Nov 25, 2017 20:08:09 GMT -5
Blanco's catch in the perfect game is the best play I've seen.
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Post by klaiggeb on Nov 25, 2017 21:49:49 GMT -5
Rog: I rarely watch ESPN, and honestly, I could care less about the highlights from other teams.
I go to the SF Giant home page and watch our own stuff if I didn't get to watch the game live.
boly
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