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[klaiggeb]

Boagie, yes, I am getting more specific but only in the sense that I'm explaining exactly what I meant.

I also said we've done it in the pitching area, but not in the 8 regulars.

NONE on Roger's list qualify to what I'm getting at. He took my term and expanded it in a way I didn't mean.

all were short term successes. Most one or 2 year phenoms



I'm talking about a player coming to us with little to no history, and having a good CAREER with the Giants.

boly

[Rog]

I identified the recent found gold in the broad definition. Boly has a very narrow one, making found gold a rare commodity.
Using his definition, I would go with:

Santiago Casilla
Javier Lopez
George Kontos

and perhaps:
Ryan Vogelsong
Gregor Blanco

Using Boly's definition, one could say there aren't any if he were to take the word "career" literally. I picked the guys I chose because of longevity and/or high performance.

I would say the guy who qualifies the most would be Casilla, who pitched at a high level (2.42 ERA, 123 saves) and was with the Giants for seven full seasons. Lopez would be next. 6+ years, 2.47 ERA, 8 homers in 251 innings. Kontos has been with the Giants for five seasons with a 2.90 ERA.

Vogelsong was with them for five seasons after being re-signed, but his ERA's the last three seasons were 4.00, 4.67 and 4.81. His first two seasons were excellent though, as he posted ERA's of 2.71 and 3.37. No one ever seems to mention it, but one could make a strong argument that for a period of over a year spread over two seasons, one could make a strong argument that Ryan was the most consistent pitcher in the majors.

From May 8, 2011 through July 29,2012, Ryan pitched only three games in which he yielded more than three earned runs, twice allowing four and once yielding five. From September 26, 2011 through July 29, 2012 (essentially two months shy of a full season), he gave up more than three earned runs only once, and that was when he yielded four on April 24, 2012. In May, June and July of 2012 -- half a season -- he didn't yield more than three earned runs once.

That's got to be near-historic consistency, and yet the baseball world missed it. It's not Jake Arrieta in the second half of 2015 and the first half of 2016, but in terms of consistency, it's very pure. Let's put it this way, when Bob Gibson posted his record 1.12 ERA in 1968, he was unable to put up a period of consistency that ran longer than Ryan's.

Bob's period of yielding no more than three earned runs only three times ran 12 days short of nine seasonal months. Ryan's period ran 9 days short of nine seasonal months, or three days longer than Gibby's. One would have thought that was worth a mention, but I don't believe it got a single one publicly.

Finishing up my list, Gregor Blanco was rarely a regular player, but he put up five seasons of very nice fourth outfielder play. In the final analysis, I would say the two guys of most note were Casilla, who fits Boly's definition best, and Vogelsong, who pitched five years and put up a semi-historic run of nearly nine seasonal months along the way.

Notice that four of the five players mentioned here were pitchers, with three of those being relievers. And the one position player was an important piece, but not a regular starter.

Finding true gold is rare indeed.

[Rog]

I guess that in the final analysis, taking Boly's definition at its tightest, no player involved over the past eight seasons has been pure gold. Can anyone remember who the last one was? I can't.

There have been a few examples throughout the major leagues, although not many. The one that comes immediately to mind is Johann Santana.

[Rog]

Using Boly's definition at its strictest, I guess even Hwang won't qualify, given his decade-long career in Korea.

I'm sure someone here must remember a Giant who fits Boly's definition, but I myself am -- as usual! -- at a loss.

[Rog]

Looking at our list, I find only 24 players in SF Giants history with 16.5 or more WAR. Six of them -- Tim Lincecum, Matt Cain, Madison Bumgarner, Buster Posey, Brandon Crawford and Brandon Belt -- played for the 2012 and 2014 World Championship teams. All but Crawford and Belt were around for all three World Championships.

I can find no other period in which that many of the 24 played together. In addition, Hunter Pence at 10.6 WAR was involved in two of the World Series Championships. Santiago Casilla at 8.6 and Sergio Romo at 9.5 also came close to double digits.

These nine Giants had a lot to do with the Giants' being able to win three World Championships in five seasons. That's a lot of star power.

[Rog]

I had two windows open simultaneously. The above had to do with the All-Time SF Giants team. Sorry for the misplacement.

[klaiggeb]

Hwang certainly WOULD fit my definition, Rog... IF he sticks and IF he becomes a contributing regular.

But it must last more than "just this season."

And yes, Rog, I do believe that "finding gold" is a rare thing indeed.

Hey, I've admitted we've had, let's call them "golden moments."

Burrell, Ross, Morse, Ishi, Scutaro, Freddy, and some others...

But Gold is a lasting commodity.

Our 'strikes' have been momentary. "Dust in the wind," as Kansas once sance.


I want US to strike it rich like other clubs have when they've signed someone with NO MAJOR LEAGUE HISTORY.

Tomas, Maeda, Ryu, and so forth, just to name a couple

boly

[klaiggeb]

And Roger, why do you keep bringing up pitchers?

Santiago Casilla
Javier Lopez
George Kontos

and perhaps:
Ryan Vogelsong



In my FIRST POST I clearly stated we HAD hit it with pitchers... but NOT, and I repeat NOT with position players.


Please stop trying to change and/or reshape my original post.

Stop trying to re define MY parameters.

You don't like what my opinion is, that's fine.

I stand by my statement. We haven't hit gold like other teams have with players of no PREVIOUS ML history.

boly

[Islandboagie]

Rog- I guess that in the final analysis, taking Boly's definition at its tightest, no player involved over the past eight seasons has been pure gold. Can anyone remember who the last one was? I can't.

Boagie- Under Boly's criteria of not including pitchers and anyone with any kind of experience...I can't think of any.

I agree with a good portion of your list, Rog. In my opinion "striking gold" is exactly what happened with Torres and Vogelsong among others.

[sfgdood]

by THAT broad a definition, finding a quarter on the street also qualifies

[Islandboagie]

Torres was barely a four-A player before joining the Giants and turned into one of the better leadoff men and arguably the best defensive CF in all of baseball in 2010.

Vogelsong was pitching in Japan in 2010, in 2011 he was among the league leaders in ERA at the all-star break.

You equate that to finding a quarter in the street?

[sfgdood]

Dont get me wrong, I LOVE Torres, but he wasn't anything that special most of his time as a Giant. Same with Uribe, Theriot, Abreu, Mijares, Machi, Ishikawa, Bird, De Aza, Gillaspie, Pena and Green.

[Rog]

Dont get me wrong, I LOVE Torres, but he wasn't anything that special most of his time as a Giant. Same with Uribe, Theriot, Abreu, Mijares, Machi, Ishikawa, Bird, De Aza, Gillaspie, Pena and Green.


Rog -- That leaves Huff, Burrell, Ross, Fontenot, Lopez, Ramirez, Casilla, Vogelsong, Mota, Duffy, Peavy, Aoki, Tomlinson, Gearrin, Arias, Scutaro, Petit, Blancon and Kontos. That's still a lot of gold.



Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3703/giants-news?page=2#ixzz4XCbdMDnG

[Rog]

I have a request for you, Randy. Please don't use one-line retorts to try to shut down a topic.

This thread is a perfect example. You post: "by THAT broad a definition, finding a quarter on the street also qualifies" That doesn't build discussion, it tears it down. Wouldn't a more reasonable approach be to say that the definition is too broad, that definition A is a better one (or at least an alternate one) and that Players A though E (or whatever) would then qualify?

Why not try to expand the conversation rather than kill it? Make sense?

Thanks.

Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3703/giants-news?page=2#ixzz4XCcTgwyN

[Rog]

Something this discussion has pointed out to me is that it's tough to find those diamonds in the rough who are so shiny yet hidden that they become players who forge a long career with their new team. On the other hand, this has shown that some tweaks have helped get the Giants to the postseason and even to win it all.
Who ever thought, for instance, that Travis Ishhikawa would become a postseason hero?

[Islandboagie]

Randy- Dont get me wrong, I LOVE Torres, but he wasn't anything that special most of his time as a Giant.

Boagie- In 2010 he was very special, and in limited time the year prior he was also quite good. That was the majority of time he spent with the Giants.

[sfgdood]

In 2009 he was ok, nothing special. In 2010 he was well above his average year. In 2011 and 2013 he was awful...he was a Met in 2012 and he was awful then too

[Rog]

With just 170 plate appearances, Andres Torres didn't play a lot in 2009. But when he did, his glove was special in all three outfield positions, he reached base 34.3% of the time, and his .533 SLG was second on the team. His .876 OPS was higher than that of any Giant this past season.

In both 2009 and 2010 Torres was indeed found gold. He played all three outfield positions at a Gold Glove level, and he posted a combined .836 OPS, which would have placed him second on the Giants last season. He also stole an efficient 32 bases in 40 attempts. He played at or close to an All-Star level. We might have to go back to Brett Butler to find a Giants center fielder who played that well over two seasons.