Grading Bobby Evans

[Islandboagie]

Rog- According to Jon Miller, Bruce Bochy gave up his number voluntarily, then was delighted when Beltran gave him a Rolex after the season. But really, Boagie. What if Beltran HAD "bribed" Bruce for his number? It happens all the time in sports.

Boagie- That's fine, I'm sure it does happen a lot, but that doesn't mean I have to admire a player that would do that.

I would have more respect for the type of character that would say "no, you are the manager, you were here first, and you were a world champion last season with that number on your back. I'll take a number that isn't already being used."

It really just comes down to our differing opinions of good character, and poor character.

Someone who claims that they are just trying to fit in normally would not then ask another person to adjust to their needs. That is the opposite of trying to fit in.

Obviously it's not the worst offense ever committed, but to me, it does show what kind of character Beltran has. Add to that the multiple occasions where he pulled himself out of important games without a noticeable injury while the trainers can't find a problem, add his implication in a PED case and it makes question people who think he's a wonderful guy.

[sfgdood]

What Boly means is that the ONLY pressing need at the deadline went unaddressed

[Rog]

The angst is ALSO about hearing this happy "oh well" tone being struck by the team. I want to hear anger...fire...determination not to make the same mistak


Rog -- Bobby Evan's heart burns with the same fire yours does, it simply controls the burn with rationality.




Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3639/grading-bobby-evans#ixzz4TIU1SerZ

[Rog]

If we're going to put down a guy simply because his personality is different than ours, we've stooped to new lows.

[Rog]

As you rolled through the moves the Giants have made, I have to admit I was impressed with them. I agree with your point that many of them weren't long-term, although I would say that guys like Affeldt and Lopez stuck around a long time. As did Casilla. Ross left because the Giants wouldn't overpay him enough (another platoon player; if he were still playing and could play center field, he's be a nice platoon partner for Span).

One guy (not long term) that I didn't see mentioned -- I might have missed it -- was Jake Peavy, who was huge in winning the World Series in 2014. The Giants have made some moves that worked out incredibly well, although as you point out, they were short term (not so with Hunter Pence). Most deadline deals -- such as Mark Melancon -- are short-term.

As you mention, the Giants are making longer term deals now. They saw a rotation need and put in no fewer than THREE starting pitchers before the free agent market for pitchers went fallow. Three average to excellent starters in eight months. That's darn hard to do. And they did so without giving up too much player-wise aside from Matt Duffy, whom they replaced with the All-Star and league-leading base stealer Eduardo Nunez.

I may not even have been as happy with these deals as some here. I didn't like the signings of Samardzija and Span, and I thought they overpaid for Smith (although I feel better about the last move than at the time of the trade). But there is little denying that the Giants made one of the quickest turnarounds personnel-wise in franchise history. Especially for a time of competition, not rebuilding.

I guess we just have to realize there's almost no pleasing Randy, who's all about what have you done for me lately (as in the last half hour)? I'm not totally satisfied, but I can't deny it's not for the lack of the Giants' trying.

And to pay little attention to how vast the changes the Giants have made are and simply focus in on their not having got a proven closer -- even after they have admitted their mistake -- is foolish. And absolutely no comment I can remember about Casilla's having been (probably unfortunately) right in the middle of a hot streak at the deadline. From June 12th through August 14th, he had one win, and 15 saves out of 16 save attempts.

I gave Evans a B, and I'll stand by that -- although an open mind could grade it lower or even a bit higher. Bobby made a huge change in the team, especially given his dearth of prospects to trade, but I didn't agree with some of the deals. And of course it would have been nice if he had been successful in getting Melancon the first time. He did get Smith though, and clearly Will should have been given a chance to close at some point.

In arguably their most important game of the season, Bruce Bochy lost a three-run lead in part because he didn't simply put in his best relief pitcher to hold it. We have criticized Joe Maddon for trying to be cute, and while I don't criticize him for having Javier Baez bunt -- for reasons explained many times -- I certainly thought he overused Aroldis Chapman. That was a theme of the playoffs -- "overusing" closers and top relievers -- but there was little need to bring in Chapman with such a big lead.

But perhaps we could look at Bruce's "cuteness" in using five relievers to still manage to blow a seemingly unblowable three-run lead. Bruce could have Boly in the game, and he might still have been able to get three outs before giving up three runs. Bruce used a formula familiar to him when perhaps he should simply have put in his hottest reliever, a guy who had excelled over the season against both left-handed hitters and righties.

I guess if Bruce failed, we can't argue that it is from a lack of trying. Perhaps he OVER-tried.

Likewise, if Bobby Evans failed, it wasn't for a lack of trying. Let's not forget that he wanted Melancon and tried to get him. One can certainly argue that he underestimated the need for a closer and the amount it would take to land Melancon in trade, but it isn't as if he sat on his hands.

The Giants have fared well in the past from making a deadline deal or two. This time they made three, which shows how many holes the team had developed. But the even the three weren't enough, or at least they weren't enough given the way Bochy used Smith.

I didn't give Evans an "A," because I didn't like all his moves, and not all them worked out. But he was almost certainly above-average in that he tried MANY moves and had most work out well. No matter how good a GM one is, he's just not going to land every player he likes, and not every player he does like turns out the way he wants the player to turn out.

And he did finally land the big fish -- for four seasons. Evans has done a pretty fair job with the money and trade assets he had available. His Samardzija and Span moves still have time to work out too. I just wish I could be as optimistic as -- almost shockingly in this case -- Boly.

When is the last time Boly was more optimistic than I? Well, aside from early last season at least? If he's right about Samardzija and Span, the Giants are in pretty darn good shape.

[sfgdood]

Pure crap. We don't judge by effort. This isn't kindergarten where everyone gets a participation trophy. Just trying isn't enough. This is a results business. You may be fine with just trying but at the end of the day, that doesn't get it done

[klaiggeb]

I think we all have good reason to be high on both Jeffy the S. and Span, Rog.

1-Span is now a full year removed from hip surgery. Everyone to whom I've spoken about hip surgery is that, though you feel better... you really aren't.

Takes a full year and then some.

2-When Jeffy the S. STARTED changing speeds, he was DRAMATICALLY better.

Then, in the play offs, he went back to throwing gas... and got lit up.

I would 'like' to think he smartened up. If he did... he could be a steal.

boly

[Rog]

OK, Randy. The Giants' results have been pretty good. Name for us the other teams that picked up three good starting pitchers, a starting center fielder, a starting third baseman, a top closer and a top lefty reliever in about a year's time. If you can't name them, the results have been pretty good.

Just given them credit for what they have accomplished and debit for what they haven't. Don't just blindly give them an "F" grade. That's just stupid and shows very little understanding.

If the Giants were as tough on you as you are on them, they'd ban you from AT&T. If you're going to be this tough on them, perhaps you should go root for the Dodgers, who spend almost enough money to meet your standards.

[Rog]

What Boly means is that the ONLY pressing need at the deadline went unaddressed


Rog -- I don't think that's what he meant, but if he did, he is wrong. The Giants addressed third or fourth starter, lefty reliever, third base and one could even argue a guy who should have become their closer.

But I don't think that is what Boly meant. He's smart enough to realize that while the Giants were caught by not adding Melancon (or better utilizing Will Smith), they did address some pressing needs.

Here's a good one for you, Randy. You are implying that adding another starter wasn't a pressing need. Yet if not for Matt Moore's very fine eight innings, the Giants may not have needed a closer in game four. Not only that, but you criticized them for not leaving Moore in.

Once against you seem to want to have it at least two different ways. You just don't seem to get it, but I do think you could if you work at it.





Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3639/grading-bobby-evans?page=2#ixzz4TLOOsGQ7

[Rog]

Pure crap. We don't judge by effort. This isn't kindergarten where everyone gets a participation trophy. Just trying isn't enough. This is a results business.


Rog -- Well, DUH! Give the Giants credit for Cueto, Samardzija, Span, Moore, Nunez, Smith and Melancon, and you'll do just fine.




Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3639/grading-bobby-evans?page=2#ixzz4TLPaD2SL

[rxmeister]

Boagie, that article said the Feds went to Reyes and Reyes said he was recommended to the doctor by Beltran, so the Feds then went to Carlos. That's Reyes throwing Beltran under the bus, Carlos didn't do anything wrong there. And if he referred him to a "juice doctor" isn't it likely that a juice doctor was what he wanted? Does Galea juice people who don't ask for it? Have either ever tested positive? Next post is another article about this awful "cancer."

[rxmeister]

www.espn.com/new-york/mlb/story/_/id/7739970/carlos-beltran-st-louis-cardinals-pays-new-york-mets-pitcher-jon-niese-new-nose

A man of his word. Paid for the surgery even though Niese was now on another team

[klaiggeb]

It appears that I need to retract my statements about Beltran.


and I do.

boly

[Islandboagie]

I'm sure Beltran has done good things during his lifetime, doesn't mean I think he's a stand up guy overall.

[Rog]

The only thing you have provided of substance IMO Boagie is the possible steroids connection. And it's strictly circumstantial. From what you posted, it sounds like Beltran was pretty cooperative with investigators, which usually isn't the case when someone is guilty.

This Beltran phobia seems to stem from Beltran's not being able to help the Giants pull the 2011 playoffs out of the fire. Beltran was brought in to save the Giants' offense. Without the injured Buster Posey, it had only Pablo Sandoval to rely on. Eli Whiteside and Brandon Crawford had OPS below .600, and no one else except Sandoval and Beltran were above the mid-.700's. Beltran got off to a slow start, but just as he was coming on, he got injured. (Health had been the primary reason -- in addition to the cost of Wheeler -- I didn't like the trade when it was made and like you, Boagie, spoke out against it.) If he had stayed healthy, maybe he could have pulled it off, although it might be important to remember that by that time in his career, he was only a star, no longer a superstar.

Going to a children's hospital when he was recovering from a cold? That's horrible? Really?

Takes Bochy's number and then rewards Bruce with an unexpected Rolex? Really?

Mark is the closest of us to Carlos' situation, and he has posted virogously on Beltran's behalf. Boly has looked all the evidence, including that regardless of whether Carlos looks like he's hustling or not, he is both liked and respected by his teammates, making him a strong clubhouse presence.

Don't feel you can't change your mind, Boagie. If you're sure, stick by your guns. If steroid use gets proven, I'll lower my own opinion. But right now the facts seem to support him pretty strongly, with only a small amount of circumstantial evidence out there against him. Carlos not only appears to be an average presence, he appears to be above average.

In his teammates' eyes, perhaps well above average.

I do worry about the steroid potential, but at this point it's just that -- potential. I've tried to go with the facts and be judicious with my use of the rest.

[Islandboagie]

Let me first say, I think this Carlos Beltran conversation has gone on far too long. I don't know if he's a good or bad guy, it's not really about that. I just know of what his history with the Giants is.

I'm a Giants fan first and foremost. When a player comes to the Giants and thinks he can ask our manager for his number after he just managed a team to the first Championship in my lifetime, you're already starting off on the wrong foot with me.

After that he shits the bed and puts himself on the DL with a phantom injury while the Giants slip in the standings.

Then the next season, after he proved he was just a rental player by not resigning, he tells the media that the Giants never called him. Sabean says they did. As a Giants fan I will choose to believe Sabean over Beltran. As a logical human being I think it seems very unlikely not a single call was made.

Whether he was lying or telling the truth, it still speaks about his character. What did Freddy Sanchez do after his first season with the Giants when he spent time on the DL? He offered to sign a lesser contract. Freddy to me is the kind of player I respect.

Would Posey or Bumgarner divulge private business dealings to the media? I think we all know they wouldn't, and its because their character wouldn't allow it.

You might be taking a very generalistic view of Beltran's career, and that's fine. I'm taking a more personal look at how he handled himself as a Giant and briefly after. You might be OK with all that, I'm not.

And that's fine. I'm not going to try to change your mind, give me the same respect.

He can pay for all sorts of nose jobs and visit children's hospitals, but for me the damage is done. He was a bad Giant and treated the organization poorly, that gave up their #1 pick for him.

As a Giants fan watching this era of Giants baseball, I expect better. No, check that, I demand better. So do the Giants, which is why they chose to replace him with a class act like Hunter Pence the following season and it resulted in another World Championship.

Again, I'm not trying to change your mind, Rog. You've always liked that skewed stats type player. One of those players that never helps the team win important games but still accumulates good stats at the end of the season. You like them because as a stats geek you can pretend to know more about that player than the average fan that actually watches the games.

[klaiggeb]

boagie, your points are all good ones... and I had honestly forgotten about that phantom injury.

Now I guess I don't know what to think about him other to say... I've already had enough of this discussion.

boly

[Rog]

Gosh, Boagie, where do I begin?

Let's start with this illusion that I don't watch the games. I've seen roughly 600 Giants games in person. Not that it matters other than how it affected my learning about the game, but my father watched 2000. On the wall behind me in my den here is a picture taken from the seats just to the left field side of home plate. On the angle behind Matt Williams and Barry Bonds the scoreboard sympathizes " In Memory of Longtime Giants Fan Franklin L---."

Aside from Don, I was the first Giants fan here. My first professional baseball game was the Minneapolis Millers at the Indianapolis Indians. Some here don't even know that the Millers were the team Willie Mays was hitting .477 for when he was called out of a Minneapolis movie theater to take the call from Leo Durocher to make him a Giant. A little more on that later.

My first major league game was the Giants at Cubs in Wrigley. I was so young that I thought if a line drive came at me I could stop it by holding up the old cardboard scorecards they had then. I've seen more baseball than many if not most here, especially Giants games in person. I've tried to count the stadiums and parks I've watched the Giants or their minor league teams play in, and it's over a dozen.

When Tim Lincecum came up, which one of us had perhaps seen more of his minor league career than anyone not in the Giants organization? Probably should have been Randy, since he goes to San Jose Giants games a lot. But it wasn't. Which one of us got to know Tim's dad, emailing him back then on a daily basis? Between Chris and me, we saw every one of Tim's minor league games, even though we never once watched them together. We did meet before Tim's major league debut -- and surprisingly to me, talked for about 45 minutes. Before Tim's Cy Young season, we met for three or four hours in Bellevue, Washington, the town in which Tim was born.

This thing that I don't watch the games is a myth, and you shouldn't be perpetuating it. At this stage do I watch every play? Nope. Got too many other things going on including watching three other sports, posting on this board, reading like crazy about baseball and managing five fantasy teams.

Yet there are things having little to do with statistics that I bring up here all the time. I can say that I've watched more baseball than most here, and I've watched it from more perspectives. Randy can perpetuate the myth, Boagie, but you're above that.

One last thing about my baseball upbringing. If my dad hadn't died four years earlier, he would have been down on the field presenting the award to Chris Speier as (at that time) the top shortstop in SF Giants history. His good buddy he watched all home games with was himself on the field presenting Rod Beck his award as the top closer.

By the way, I think Rich Aurilia surpassed Chris in that regard, and I'm beginning to think that by the time he reties, the top SF Giants shortstop will be Brandon Crawford -- if he isn't already. Standing out for Rich though is his 2001 season in which he led the league in hits, batting .324, hitting 37 home runs, scoring 114 and driving in 97. That stands as easily the top season by an SF Giants shortstop.

Anyway, Boagie, if anyone wants to talk baseball with me, I'm right there with them. The only exceptions are that Boly knows more about baseball mechanics than I, and Don knows more about Giants history. On any other topic Giants, I'll be right there with anyone here.

Let's put it this way: Before I began closely looking at statistics, I knew as much as anyone here about baseball -- with the two exceptions noted above. Do you think I forgot all that when I began studying the game from a perspective that general managers, managers and even players now rely on?

To use the old saying, I may have forgotten more than many know, but I haven't forgotten it all. If you don't think so, try me, Boagie. I had no problem discussing baseball with Chris Speier and Chris Linecum. With Speier, it was years before I studied stats. With Lincecum, stats had little to do with our conversations.

When Chris Lincecum asked me to scout his son Tim's debut in Fresno and then compared my account with Tim's, you don't think Chris believed I knew anything about the game? Come on, Boagie, you know you're better than that.

Incidentally, you may have moved, but did you watch Tim's debut at Salem-Keizer? If circumstances prevented it, I'm sure it would have been exciting. I'm going from memory here, but I believe Tim pitched two games there, striking out something like 8 in his three innings and allowing a single hit. I hate to come back to stats, but look at Tim's numbers at Fresno. One earned run in 31 innings. That one run came on a sacrifice fly to Freddie Lewis.

Incidentally, I charted each of Tim's pitches beginning with the minor league games I saw him pitch, and continuing through his first season and beyond. A funny thing: When Tim was called up, I predicted his rookie stats to his dad. Amazingly, after striking out the side against the Pirates in the first inning on August 10, 2007, he was right on pace for them, almost to the number in most cases. But from that point on he didn't pitch as well, and was shut down late that season for a reason I'm pledged not to disclose, although I'm not sure it matters by now.

I don't know the game? Seriously?

[Islandboagie]

When I say you don't watch the games I'm basing my opinion on the fact that almost, if not every time, a certain play is discussed here on the board you claim you didn't see the play in question because you were unable to watch the game. You can read more into it if you'd like, but I'm merely repeating the statements you've made over the years.

I don't see every play of every game either, but that's usually because I'm at work, at the park with the dog or busy cooking in the kitchen. Obviously, some things are more important than catching every inning of every game. But playing fantasy baseball or watching the Dodgers is definitely not among them.

[Rog]

There are indeed some plays I haven't seen and have already deleted, but there are also plenty of others on which I weigh in.

Regarding fantasy, while I never thought I would play it and did so only because my son was in an emergency situation in which he needed me to draft his team in a couple of hours and then manage it, I really enjoy it -- especially the Yahoo leagues, which is what I have played except for our league last summer. And my favorite is rotisserie instead of head-to-head, since the competition in each category is based on the entire season.

As for watching the Dodgers, I rarely do so unless they are playing the Dodgers. I don't average even 10 innings a year except against the Giants. If I stumble into them on the MLB Network or something, I may leave the TV turned on for a couple of innings. Last season I think I watched a little bit of Julio Urias when he came up.

In all sports, I rarely watch the teams I'm not interested in. I do watch the Giants, Warriors, Packers, 49ers, Sharks and Cal.

[Rog]

Back to Beltran, asking a player or manager for his number isn't unusual at all. And what makes you think that Beltran's injury was phantom? Prior to the trade he had played more games than any other Met. Why would he suddenly fake an injury?

As for how he performed, that depends on one's perspective. It's kind of like if we judge most of the Giants players last season by the second half, they weren't very good. If we look at the whole season, some of them were pretty good. Carlos did start very slowly (1 for 14). But he was just coming around (10 for 31) when he became injured. After he returned, he hit well enough that his total numbers with the Giants were .321/.369/.551/.920, which along with Pablo Sandoval were the only good offensive numbers on the team. That's hardly soiling the bed.

If Carlos had a problem, it may have been that he was trying too hard. His excellent 14.3% walk rate with the Mets was followed by an overly aggressive 6.1% with the Giants.

Carlos batted an anemic .118 (2 for 17) in his four July games with the Giants after the trade, but despite his injury, in Auguast and September, he combined too hit .347. If that's soiling the bed, the Giants should focus on signing bed wetters.

[Rog]

It should be noted that Carlos Beltran waived his no-trade contract to play for the Giants, apparently wanting to chase a title.

Regarding whether the Giants made an offer to Beltran or not may have depended on exactly what constituted an offer. I don't think either Sabean or Beltran is a liar. A misunderstanding seems more likely.

Regarding the Giants' not re-signing Beltran, according to Giants beat writer Henry Schulman, "Sabean explained the Giants' logic, or lack of it, by saying that Beltran would have been a difficult fit because of the glut of corner outfielders already on the roster, and more importantly, the Giants would not have been able to afford to keep their pitching staff together while also retaining Beltran."

You say you believe Sabean not Beltran, but that may be your bias showing. It is possible either Brian or Carlos was lying, but there is also the possibility of a misunderstanding. Out of the three possibilities, you chose the one that favored your opinion of Beltran. Nice.

Personally I'm guessing the misunderstanding possibility, but I'm merely guessing -- which is I believe what you too are doing, Boagie.

[Rog]

Regarding this so-called "phantom injury," John Shea wrote “Bochy said he thinks Carlos Beltran, who got another opinion in Cleveland and another cortisone injection, will be able to come off the DL Tuesday when the Giants begin their homestand.”

In the case of a phantom injury, a player isn't likely to seek a second opinion, nor is he likely to take another cortisone injection.

Remember, Carlos had a couple of years earlier suffered a knee injury that required surgery and cause him to miss about a year of play, spread over two seasons. Despite that, Carlos has played 2457 games over his career. How many phantom injuries do you think he's HAD?

I earlier posted his injury history up through 2014, when Baseball Prospectus stopped posting them. If you'll recall, he had a lot of very tough injuries, many from contact with other players, fences or walls.

[Rog]

You say Carlos was a "bad Giant and treated the organization poorly," but you have nothing concrete to back that statement up, do you? If Carlos were indeed a "bad Giant," he likely wouldn't have given Bruce Bochy the Rolex after the season. What would have been the point?

[rxmeister]

Remember in Philly when Carlos first joined the team and he tried to make a diving catch on a bloop and the Giants freaked out because they were so afraid of him getting hurt? That's the kind of player Beltran is. And remember the people mocking him for struggling with the season on the line and then getting hot when the Giants were out of it? Ever occur to those fans that it was pre and post DL stint? Phantom injury? What a ridiculous accusation. Carlos is the ultimate gamer. Hit .323 as a Giant with 7 HR in a park notorious for robbing power, and hit .378 in September after he came off the DL. Was playing hurt before that. He's too old now, so he belongs in a DH league, but he's a terrific player, and probably a hall of famer.

[Islandboagie]

Rog- You say Carlos was a "bad Giant and treated the organization poorly," but you have nothing concrete to back that statement up, do you?

Boagie- Nothing that you will believe, or not make excuses for, apparently.

I've given plenty of reasons why I believe he was a horrible disappointment as a rental player, but since there's no stat to prove my point to you, you discredit it, because you always discredit my opinion when it doesn't agree with yours.

But for now, and for the spirit of the season I will say Beltran was a good Giant, that way we hopefully can stop talking about it.

Merry Christmas and happy holidays to all of you.

[Rog]

I'll drop this after this, Boagie, but please remember, I came into Carlos as a Giant not liking the trade, as was the case with you. I simply don't like to see a guy impugned -- especially his character -- without strong evidence.

Look at what Mark has posted. Look at the many articles here that have spoken highly of Carlos. On the other side, we have an opinion that Carlos let down the Giants (by hitting .323, although I understand there are other factors and can at least see how you came about your opinion on that one) and an article that showed his possible -- just possible -- involvement in steroids. (By the way, whenever a player plays well late into his 30's or into his 40's, I myself wonder.)

But look at the balance. One the one side have an awful lot of tangible evidence, including statements from Mark, who is in the best position to judge Carlos and who may be the most objective poster here. On the other we have mostly innuendo. Boly renounced his opinion when he saw the evidence. I truly think if you look back at what first set you off -- that Carlos didn't bail the punchless Giants out to win a second straight World Championship, not even getting them into the playoffs -- and look objectively at all that has been presented here, you will change your opinion. But that, of course, is up to you. We'll still love you either way.

I changed my opinion here this week. For some reason I had it in my head that Andrew McCutchen wouldn't bounce back. Maybe I thought he was older than he was or maybe my idea was based on something I had heard or read. Whatever, the guy did put together a decent August and a nice September. When I looked (fairly quickly, I'll admit) at what his numbers told me, I realized I wasn't giving him enough credit. I do think we've seen the best from him, but I also think he'll bounce back half way or more. I also think it is quite possible that while he being stand up about it, he may have been playing through injury.

I was wrong, and I changed my opinion. And, by the way, I learned something from the process, as is almost always the case when I study statements made by myself or others here.

Your opinion is yours, Boagie. I hope though that we have given you reason for pause and caused you to do your own study and made your best attempt at objectively sifting through the evidence.

Let me reiterate that I admire Boly for changing his stance. It's a sign of strength, not weakness, but of course it must come from an honest re-examination of the facts and not be simply to appease those who feel differently. Don't simply appease us, Boagie, but please do take the time to do one last evaluation and try to do it as objectively as you possibly can.

We'll be pleased that you were man enough to do so and will be happy with whatever conclusion you reach. You are right in that sometimes we simply have to agree to disagree. As humans, we DO see different things differently.

[Rog]

I just saw your last post here, Boagie. Merry Christmas to you and yours as well. Happy Hannukah and Happy New Year! May 2017 be filled with World Championships! Personally, I'll settle for just the Giants, Warriors, Packers and Sharks.