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Post by klaiggeb on Jul 3, 2016 20:49:27 GMT -5
I've seen a LOT of great short stops, from Ozzie Smith and Omar Vizquel just to name a few... but after what I saw from Crawford TODAY?
And after what we've seen from him over the last few years?
Crawford needs to be IN the conversation when discussing great shortstops.
I'm never going to say THE best, but defensively, he's in the top 10 all time that I've ever seen.
boly
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Crawford
Jul 3, 2016 23:07:52 GMT -5
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Post by Islandboagie on Jul 3, 2016 23:07:52 GMT -5
I don't think Crawford will ever be considered the best by the mainstream, but in my own opinion he's as good defensively as either of the shortstops you mentioned.
I saw an extensive amount from Vizquel in his prime, he never had a good arm, and to me that's fairly important as a shortstop. Vizquel however had better hands, instincts and range than any shortstop I've seen. Crawford's instincts are now nearing what I saw from Vizquel, and he makes tough plays look routine.
Of the shortstops I've seen, I'd have to put Vizquel #1, and Crawford as a close #2. Both of them are at a higher level than Smith and the rest.
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Post by klaiggeb on Jul 4, 2016 11:23:47 GMT -5
Solid post, boagie.
In his prime, Vizquel had tremendous range, but as you pointed out... just an average arm.
Ozzie... again, great, great range and an acrobatic defender.
But since Crawford is NOT acrobatic, unfortunately, as you said, he'll not ever be considered the best.
Personally, to be mentioned IN a conversation about great short stops is enough for me... IF I'm Crawford.
That display he put on yesterday was flat out spectacular!
And when you add, as you pointed out, his howitzer-arm, he got outs on plays in Sunday's game that neither Smith nor Vizquel could have done, period.
Add his power, and his ability to drive in runs?
I'll take him in a heartbeat and I won't care where the mainstream media ranks him.
He's ours, thank God!
boly
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Post by Rog on Jul 8, 2016 19:48:59 GMT -5
I'll be perfectly honest here. Without more study than is likely available on the older guys, I can't truly compare them. Fielding is tough to evaluate. I feel confident that all the guys discussed here are excellent, but how does one truly compare them?
With hitters and pitchers, we've got numbers to back up their performances. With fielding, even the most sophisticated of numbers (most of which we don't consider anyway) have a tough time evaluating. When we take a look at all the available numbers TOGETHER, we probably come closer.
But I don't believe those numbers are available for the older players. And even if we look back at all we can find, we'll mostly see highlights, which certainly don't tell the whole story.
I will say this about Crawford this season though. I think he has continued to improve, and it has crossed my mind that he may have caught or even surpassed Andrelton Simmons. I think the numbers speak on Brandon's behalf. And if so, that's quite an accomplishment.
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Crawford
Jul 9, 2016 2:19:23 GMT -5
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Post by Islandboagie on Jul 9, 2016 2:19:23 GMT -5
Rog- I will say this about Crawford this season though. I think he has continued to improve, and it has crossed my mind that he may have caught or even surpassed Andrelton Simmons. I think the numbers speak on Brandon's behalf.
Boagie- When the numbers were on Simmons' side according to you he was undoubtedly the best, even though you had almost no knowledge outside of the sabremetrics. But now that the numbers are on Crawford's side it crossed your mind that Crawford MAY have caught or surpassed Simmons.
Don't you think you should at least be consistent in your assessments using numbers, if numbers are the only thing you have to go on?
And perhaps you could admit that you MAY have been wrong last season when you disagreed with me and others who thought Crawford was the better shortstop. Perhaps we saw things you didn't last season and this season the numbers finally caught up.
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Post by Rog on Jul 9, 2016 2:50:59 GMT -5
Boagie- When the numbers were on Simmons' side according to you he was undoubtedly the best, even though you had almost no knowledge outside of the sabremetrics. But now that the numbers are on Crawford's side it crossed your mind that Crawford MAY have caught or surpassed Simmons. Don't you think you should at least be consistent in your assessments using numbers, if numbers are the only thing you have to go on? And perhaps you could admit that you MAY have been wrong last season when you disagreed with me and others who thought Crawford was the better shortstop. Perhaps we saw things you didn't last season and this season the numbers finally caught up. Rog -- Your points are good ones, Boagie. I would like to add a few things. After last season I felt pretty confident Simmons was the best, since he had been the unanimous choice of The Fielding Bible the previous three seasons and was considered by many to be the best fielder in the majors over those three years. Crawford finished 19th, 7th and 2nd in those three seasons, after finishing 9th the year prior. Simmons ranked higher in over half the metrics in 2015, although Crawford ranked higher in the metric used in the Gold Glove voting, which likely put him over the top. Numbers aren't the only thing I have to go on, although I admit my knowledge outside them and the opinions of others is slim and mostly limited to viewing Crawford on pretty much an everyday basis plus highlights and Simmons almost entirely on highlights. Of course I could have been wrong last winter about Simmons' being the better of the two in 2015. The evidence I had seen pointed toward Simmons fairly conclusively, but not entirely. As for whether others saw things in Crawford I didn't last season, I would guess that is true -- just as I may have seen a thing or two others didn't. Same with Simmons. What I was trying to do here was praise Crawford. Perhaps that wasn't enough. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3367/crawford#ixzz4DtZFAw00
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Post by rxmeister on Jul 9, 2016 9:18:11 GMT -5
Was royally screwed not making the all star team, and even national outlets are saying it. I never worried about his great defense, but wondered if last year's hitting was a fluke. I know now it wasn't. Giants made great moves locking up the Brandons, and I look forward to watching them both for a long time
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Crawford
Jul 9, 2016 10:27:14 GMT -5
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Post by Islandboagie on Jul 9, 2016 10:27:14 GMT -5
I agree, Mark. I'm rarely upset about Giants being snubbed in the All-Star Game, but Crawford was definitely snubbed big time.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Jul 9, 2016 11:26:10 GMT -5
Im hoping the snub will serve as motivation for Craw to rake mercilessly, particularly when we're playing the Mets.
On a related note, I'm really worried that Belt will drop off after making the team, thinking he has reached the pinnacle and no longer has to work at it.
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Crawford
Jul 9, 2016 14:49:25 GMT -5
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Post by Islandboagie on Jul 9, 2016 14:49:25 GMT -5
I don't think its necessarily Collins fault. Seager is also deserving, and by the time Posey, Bumgarner, and Cueto made the team he probably figured the Giants had enough players.
The problem to me is the mainstream media talks so much about the stupid Cubs that people actually believe Russell is the best or among the best shortstops in the game. And of course the Cubs fans voted often.
Something there needs to change.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Jul 10, 2016 1:29:12 GMT -5
The Giants have the best record in the League, NOT the Cubs...so Collins can't really make the "the Giants have enough players on the team" argument when the entire Cubs roster will be in San Diego.
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Post by Rog on Jul 10, 2016 10:32:46 GMT -5
I never worried about his great defense, but wondered if last year's hitting was a fluke. Rog -- You hit the nail on the head, Mark. More and more it's showing that I underestimated Crawford's hitting. He's not close to the 1.000+ OPS guy he was when I made my prediction, but it appears he may be one of the few players who is truly clutch. He should be given a lot of credit for his fielding too. He just might have surpassed Simmons, who not long ago at all was looked as a guy who might become the best fielder of all time. That's amazing for a guy the Giants once thought was second defensively to Ehire Adrianza. Brandon plays the game with a lot of intelligence, as was illustrated the other night when he went WAY into the outfield to take Span's throw back to the infield and almost double up Drury. That was a very exciting play that featured some very good and some not so good: . Drury went WAY too far off first base given the score in the game. He compounded his mistake by looking back over his shoulder instead of just busting it back to first. . Span made a heck of a catch, but it came because he got a very bad break. He compounded his original mistake by not being alert enough to the possibility of the double play, and made a slightly delayed, weak and short throw to Crawford, who still showed off his very strong arm and nearly completed the DP. By the way, it's hard to fault Span too much for his slight delay. He was trying to bounce off the wall. But the split second extra he took ultimately made the difference. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3367/crawford#ixzz4E1IJcVwT
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Post by Rog on Jul 10, 2016 10:37:07 GMT -5
On a related note, I'm really worried that Belt will drop off after making the team, thinking he has reached the pinnacle and no longer has to work at it. Rog -- If that happens, it may show that you are right about his psyche. It could also show the normal ups and downs of baseball or the possible effect of a future injury. It will be intriguing to watch though. A significant decline from Brandon could show that you're right. I don't expect that to happen, but who knows? If Brandon continues at anywhere near his present level though, you might want to cut him more of a break than you have to date. It's beginning to look as if I was premature by a year in predicting Brandon's breakout and that Boly was right on the money. If Brandon is as you have described him though, Randy, this likely will be short-lived. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3367/crawford#ixzz4E1KYuoUp
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Crawford
Jul 10, 2016 12:22:38 GMT -5
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Post by Islandboagie on Jul 10, 2016 12:22:38 GMT -5
Randy- The Giants have the best record in the League, NOT the Cubs...so Collins can't really make the "the Giants have enough players on the team" argument when the entire Cubs roster will be in San Diego.
Boagie- Yes but those Cubs were voted in by the fans, not chosen by Collins. Collins probably should have taken Crawford, but the real injustice is Crawford not getting the most votes. He won the gold glove and the silver slugger last season for Christ sake and he's picked up right where he left off...if the media gave Crawford the attention he deserves he would have gotten the votes. Just like Harper and Cespedes did.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Jul 10, 2016 21:47:40 GMT -5
That doesn't excuse Collins one bit. Crawford earned his way on more than ANY SS in the league. The kicker is Collins had lots of chances to add Craw to the team as an injury replacement but he decided it would be more fun to give Brandon the shaft.
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Post by Rog on Jul 11, 2016 22:15:34 GMT -5
The problem to me is the mainstream media talks so much about the stupid Cubs that people actually believe Russell is the best or among the best shortstops in the game. And of course the Cubs fans voted often. Rog -- I think the second statement is far more accurate than the first. Aside from Cubs fans, do we know ANYONE who thinks Addison Russell is the best shortstop in the NL? Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3367/crawford#ixzz4EA1b3LAc
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Post by Rog on Jul 11, 2016 22:18:49 GMT -5
When the Cubs' fans voted for Russell, I doubt the majority thought he was the best shortstop; rather, they were essentially voting that he was their favorite.
I don't like it, but it's the fans' game.
Back in the late 50's, Reds fans did a very similar thing. In fact, I believe they voted at least seven starters into the game, although a few were reversed by the NL, with guys like Willie Mays being substituted. I think the NL allowed any Red who could be considered a starter with a big stretch to start, but they didn't allow more than five IIRC.
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Post by Rog on Jul 11, 2016 22:26:31 GMT -5
The Giants have the best record in the League, NOT the Cubs...so Collins can't really make the "the Giants have enough players on the team" argument when the entire Cubs roster will be in San Diego. Rog -- I think reality got in the way. Most of the Cubs were VOTED into the game as starters and thus couldn't be removed. And each teams needs to have a representative in the game, limiting the manager's flexibility. I personally thought MLB made a mistake by placing the wrong Brandon on the final ballot. But now I have seen Crawford described as the must underrated shortstop in the game. A this point he might be the most undervalued player regardless of position. Crawford himself took the high road and mentioned that the fans had voted him #2 in the 2012 balloting when he didn't deserve that many votes. So he felt it somewhat balanced out with this year. The sad thing of course is that he didn't get to MAKE the team either time. But if Brandon can take the high road, we probably should do so as well. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3367/crawford#ixzz4EA3QAwqk
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Post by Rog on Jul 11, 2016 22:27:36 GMT -5
When a lot of these decisions were made, the Giants DIDN'T have the league's best record.
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Post by Rog on Jul 11, 2016 22:37:03 GMT -5
That doesn't excuse Collins one bit. Crawford earned his way on more than ANY SS in the league. Rog -- Perhaps no more so than Corey Seager, who after a slow start has really come on. In fact, an argument could have been made for at least three shortstops beyond Crawford, Seager and Russell. Aledmysys Diaz has the highest batting average (.315) and OPS (.915). Trevor Story has the most home runs (21), is only four RBI's behind Crawford and has outscored Brandon by 15 runs. Jonathan Villar is hitting .298 and leads the majors with 31 steals. There are probably at least five guys better than Russell. In fact, he ranks only #10 among NL shortstops in OPS. Brandon ranks #5, and his defense and clutch hitting put him above just about everybody. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3367/crawford#ixzz4EA52hAc5
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Post by Rog on Jul 11, 2016 22:38:09 GMT -5
Incidentally, the mainstream media as in last night's announcers said that Brandon could be among the top five MVP candidates in the entire league.
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Post by Rog on Jul 11, 2016 22:39:58 GMT -5
Brandon will almost certainly repeat as the Gold Glove winner this year, but I wouldn't call him a favorite to repeat with the Silver Slugger. That such a fine glove man could win it even once is quite a tribute.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Jul 12, 2016 1:11:24 GMT -5
Cueto, Bumgarner, Posey and Belt should put GIANT #35s on the side of their caps. If it were my teammate that got screwed that badly, I would not ever acknowledge Terry the Prick Collins' presence.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Jul 12, 2016 1:16:00 GMT -5
That doesn't excuse Collins one bit. Crawford earned his way on more than ANY SS in the league.
Rog -- Perhaps no more so than Corey Seager, who after a slow start has really come on. In fact, an argument could have been made for at least three shortstops beyond Crawford, Seager and Russell.
Aledmysys Diaz has the highest batting average (.315) and OPS (.915).
Trevor Story has the most home runs (21), is only four RBI's behind Crawford and has outscored Brandon by 15 runs.
Jonathan Villar is hitting .298 and leads the majors with 31 steals.
There are probably at least five guys better than Russell. In fact, he ranks only #10 among NL shortstops in OPS. Brandon ranks #5, and his defense and clutch hitting put him above just about everybody.
Dood - He's the best overall SS in either league and it's not really that close. 61 FREAKIN RBI!!! How does someone that produces like that NOT make the team?? Collins is a rats ass.
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Post by Rog on Jul 13, 2016 21:16:15 GMT -5
I would not ever acknowledge Terry the Prick Collins' presence. Rog -- Wouldn't that just make us pricks ourselves? Why not be like Brandon himself and rise above it? Otherwise, don't we run the risk that he's a better man than we? And that we have sunk to Collins' perceived level. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3367/crawford#ixzz4ELMqtGAc
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Post by Rog on Jul 13, 2016 21:42:57 GMT -5
He's the best overall SS in either league and it's not really that close. Rog -- To say it's not really that close might be a bit of an overstatement. I don't think there's much comparison between the fielding of Brandon and the best-hitting shortstops, but there are eight shortstops with higher OPS than he -- three of them with a 74 point advantage or more. I know you don't like WAR, Randy, but if you know of a better, more objective way to compare players, you should share it with us. You'll be happy to know that WAR ranks Brandon at the top of all shortstops this season, and third in the National League behind only Clayton Kershaw and Kris Bryant. Right behind Brandon in ninth place in the majors is Francisco Lindor, with 4.1 Wins Above Replacement (per Fan Graphs). Brandon ranks #8 in the majors with 4.2 WAR. The point isn't that Brandon might not be the best shortstop in the majors; the point is that to say it's not even close is an opinion that isn't fully backed up by facts. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3367/crawford#ixzz4ELUQHN39
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Post by Rog on Jul 13, 2016 21:44:01 GMT -5
Collins is a rats ass.
Rog -- Didn't you just sink to his level? Brandon Crawford wouldn't have done so.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Jul 13, 2016 22:40:19 GMT -5
Collins is a rats ass.
Rog -- Didn't you just sink to his level? Brandon Crawford wouldn't have done so.
Dood - I only spoke the truth about Collins. If that puts me on the same level as someone who intentionally screwed a great player out of a rightfully earned honor, then so be it
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Post by rxmeister on Jul 14, 2016 8:40:39 GMT -5
We can fix the ballot stuffing thing very easily in two different ways. First of all the obvious. Give the voting back to the players. The fans were given the vote back because MLB thought it would drum up interest in the all star game, but considering the last two had the lowest ratings in history, you can see that neither giving the fans back the voting or making the game decide home field hasn't worked. The second way is to penalize the cities that stuff the ballot box. Here would be an example. "Because the fans voted in so many Chicago Cubs, we will not name any additional ones, even those that are deserving. Sorry, Jake Arrieta!" Cubs fans would realize that voting in Russell cost the more deserving Arrieta a spot and vote more responsibly the next year. This would solve the problem and make fans more responsible, I think.
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Crawford
Jul 14, 2016 10:37:12 GMT -5
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Post by Islandboagie on Jul 14, 2016 10:37:12 GMT -5
Good ideas, Mark. They could also not allow voting online. Or limit the vote to 1 per person that has to use their email address.
Normally, when the fans discard their bias and vote for the best players they often get it right.
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