sfgdood
Long time member 
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Apr 8, 2016 1:30:53 GMT -5
The way I see it...managers going along with the pitcher hitting 8th fad are doing their best to claim credit for the team's success away from the players. It's a shameless "look at me" thing. Pretty sad
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Post by Islandboagie on Apr 8, 2016 11:35:40 GMT -5
Since Bochy had been against batting the pitcher 8th in years prior, I don't think it's a matter of ego. People who let their ego dictate their decisions rarely admit they were wrong at any point. I can see how you might have trouble wrapping your head around that.
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Post by klaiggeb on Apr 8, 2016 12:32:53 GMT -5
I can't see this move as ego, either.
I think that, right now, it's an experiment.
The logic, with a guy like Pagan in the 9 hole, is solid... though I'm not sure I'd do it.
Still, if it works out most of, or a large period of the time, I believe he'll stick with it.
If it doesn't, I believe he'll scrape it, and I think he'll know one way or the other before June gets here.
boly
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Apr 8, 2016 12:38:20 GMT -5
As I've said all along this team is going to score runs no matter what the order is. The guy I feel bad for is Crawford...he is the one whose numbers will suffer w/risp especially. We can see it playing out already.
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Post by Islandboagie on Apr 8, 2016 13:09:12 GMT -5
Crawford is in a better position to get RBI chances than ever before. He's batting closer to the meat of the lineup, while remaining as the last in line before the pitcher. The player that benefits the most from this lineup strategy is very likely Crawford.
Thus far, he hasn't had many chances at driving in runs, and the small sample of runners on that he has had he uncharacteristically hasn't done well in, only 1 for 4, and 0 for 2 in RISP. But of course, it's only four games into the season. Things like this almost always even out.
Batting behind Pence, Belt and Duffy will leave him with plenty of opportunities during an entire season.
But let's also not ignore the fact that Crawford is batting .357 right now, with a 1.113 OPS. I'd say Crawford is fairly comfortable in his current spot.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Apr 9, 2016 1:04:40 GMT -5
hmmm...so you're saying that if you're a pitcher with Craw up there with ducks on the pond, you're going to challenge him instead of the pitcher hitting behind him?
I disagree. I see pitchers avoiding the hitting zone in those situations
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Post by Islandboagie on Apr 9, 2016 1:27:00 GMT -5
How is that any different than him batting 8th and the pitcher 9th like we've seen for the last number of years? I don't get it. Crawford has had a lot of success batting ahead of the pitcher, that's not the issue.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
|
Post by sfgdood on Apr 9, 2016 2:13:33 GMT -5
after last year's silver slugger year when he bested Brandon Belt's best RBI year by 14, only a moron would bat Craw 8th or in front of a pitcher for any lame reason
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
|
Post by sfgdood on Apr 9, 2016 2:18:50 GMT -5
on further thought, it might not be Bochy's ego in play here...maybe he's trying to massage Pagan's fragile ego by giving him a "second leadoff" moniker. Either way, Craw's getting the shaft.
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Post by Islandboagie on Apr 9, 2016 3:03:49 GMT -5
I'd prefer batting Belt ahead of Crawford because Belt gets on base more frequently, and Crawford is better at clutch hitting and driving in runs. If that makes me a moron, so be it. At least I'm a moron who agrees with the best manager in baseball.
To be honest, I don't think you fully comprehend just how valuable having a good hitter batting ahead of the pitcher really is. The Giants have a good lineup because it's deep, and Crawford batting 7th or 8th is a huge reason for that.
I can tell you right now Belt would be a poor hitter to hit ahead of the pitcher because he can't hit good executed pitches, Crawford can.
Part of Belt's game is also drawing a fair amount of walks, which isn't usually a good thing when you're ahead of the pitcher.
You could make the argument for batting Pagan 8th and the pitcher 9th, but what's the difference? Crawford would still feel the burden of having to drive in runs.
I think it works pretty well. In fact tonight was the first time they haven't hit the pitcher 8th, and the Giants struggled to even get a hit until the 8th inning.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
|
Post by sfgdood on Apr 9, 2016 4:32:37 GMT -5
I would switch the Brandons and bat Pagan 8th. The difference is you would have a real hitter, not a pitcher, batting behind our best RBI guys.
Tonight it didn't get tested because we had zero ABs with risp.
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Post by rxmeister on Apr 9, 2016 7:28:39 GMT -5
I know you hate advanced stats with all your heart, Randy, but all the sabermetricians believe that the best lineup has the pitcher batting eighth. On some occasions they may pitch around Crawford, but the guys at the top of the lineup will receive more opportunities to drive in runs with Pagan batting ninth. And with a 4-1 record, two wins over the Dodgers and two 12 run outbursts in five games, I'm liking what I see!
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
|
Post by sfgdood on Apr 9, 2016 9:26:05 GMT -5
of course you like what you see...this team is equipped to score runs, regardless what the batting order may be. Heck even Craw is happy because we're 4-1 and he's got a huge new contract. Life couldn't be better. I'm just saying over the course of the season his RBI numbers will inevitably suffer with this pitcher hitting 8th fad dreamed up by stats geeks who never played the game.
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Post by Rog on Apr 9, 2016 9:58:11 GMT -5
As I've said all along this team is going to score runs no matter what the order is. The guy I feel bad for is Crawford...he is the one whose numbers will suffer w/risp especially. We can see it playing out already. Rog -- Brandon has hit .247/.337/.396/.733 with RISP compared to just .225/.290/.355/.645 with no one aboard. Batting eighth, he's hit .256/.326/.382/.708, or just higher than his .247/.314/.386/.700 mark. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3257/manager-ego#ixzz45LCYI94Q |
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Post by klaiggeb on Apr 9, 2016 10:16:08 GMT -5
boagie-I'd prefer batting Belt ahead of Crawford because Belt gets on base more frequently, and Crawford is better at clutch hitting and driving in runs. If that makes me a moron, so be it. At least I'm a moron who agrees with the best manager in baseball.
To be honest, I don't think you fully comprehend just how valuable having a good hitter batting ahead of the pitcher really is. The Giants have a good lineup because it's deep, and Crawford batting 7th or 8th is a huge reason for that.
I can tell you right now Belt would be a poor hitter to hit ahead of the pitcher because he can't hit good executed pitches, Crawford can.
Part of Belt's game is also drawing a fair amount of walks, which isn't usually a good thing when you're ahead of the pitcher.
***boly says***
What an outstanding argument, boagie! I mean, seriously outstanding!
You brought up a number of things I hadn't considered.
Well done!
And to further back up your points, for as long back as I can remember, teams and baseball experts have long said that, ideally, the guy hitting in front of the pitcher has to be a dependable hitter who knows the strike zone.
Ideally being the optimum word.
That hitter has to be smart.
Has to be patient
Has to have the ability to expand the strike zone when necessary.
All traits that Crawford has.
If we are going to go with the pitcher batting 8th, I'd MUCH RATHER have Crawford in the 7 hole than Pagan, having Pagan hit in the 8 hole was MY original call before the season began and we started hitting the pitcher 8th, and in retrospect, that wouldn't have worked as well.
I'm still not sold on the concept.
I still think it's the proverbial "work in progress," but so far, so good.
boly
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Post by Islandboagie on Apr 9, 2016 11:55:22 GMT -5
Boly- What an outstanding argument, boagie! I mean, seriously outstanding!
You brought up a number of things I hadn't considered.
Well done!
And to further back up your points, for as long back as I can remember, teams and baseball experts have long said that, ideally, the guy hitting in front of the pitcher has to be a dependable hitter who knows the strike zone.
Ideally being the optimum word.
That hitter has to be smart.
Has to be patient
Has to have the ability to expand the strike zone when necessary.
All traits that Crawford has.
Boagie- Thanks, Boly. And I agree with your additional opinions on it, except one thing. I don't believe the hitter has to be smart necessarily. Pablo wasn't a smart hitter, but I think he would have made a good hitter ahead of the pitcher because he was a good hitter. He could hit well executed pitches, but he wasn't exactly a smart hitter, and neither is Crawford. There's a handful of smarter hitters in the Giants lineup, but not many of them can hit well executed pitches like Crawford can.
Posey for instance fouls off well executed pitches and waits for a mistake. Same with Pence, except he tends to also swing through a lot of well executed pitches.
Crawford is probably the best at taking the ball the other way, even when it's 5 inches off the plate, which makes him equally tough to strikeout or walk.
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Post by klaiggeb on Apr 9, 2016 14:53:57 GMT -5
Pablo in that 8 hole would have been good, because he was such a good, bad ball hitter.
Extending the strikezone was something he could do really well.
I don't mean "smart" as in Posey-Smart. I mean smart as in "Knowing the situation," and understanding "what" the pitcher is trying to do.
boly
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Post by Rog on Apr 10, 2016 9:54:34 GMT -5
after last year's silver slugger year when he bested Brandon Belt's best RBI year by 14, only a moron would bat Craw 8th or in front of a pitcher for any lame reason Rog -- Only a moron would write such a thing without at least building a very strong case for it. We're listening, Randy. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3257/manager-ego#ixzz45R4Qit00 |
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Post by Rog on Apr 10, 2016 9:56:54 GMT -5
of course you like what you see...this team is equipped to score runs, regardless what the batting order may be. Rog -- Then why are you calling someone a moron for batting Crawford ahead of the pitcher? The same logic you are using to refute Mark refutes your own previous comment. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3257/manager-ego#ixzz45R53BOSV |
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Post by Rog on Apr 10, 2016 10:02:45 GMT -5
Part of Belt's game is also drawing a fair amount of walks, which isn't usually a good thing when you're ahead of the pitcher. Rog -- I understand your thinking here, Boagie, but your statement just isn't true. More often than not, the 8th-place hitter comes up with no one on base. If he gets a walk in such a case, he either ensures the pitcher doesn't lead off the next inning or puts the pitcher in a spot where the pitcher can sacrifice. So walking ahead of the pitcher usually IS a good thing. You could look it up. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3257/manager-ego#ixzz45R5YnMbV |
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Post by Islandboagie on Apr 10, 2016 12:03:23 GMT -5
Rog -- I understand your thinking here, Boagie, but your statement just isn't true. More often than not, the 8th-place hitter comes up with no one on base. If he gets a walk in such a case, he either ensures the pitcher doesn't lead off the next inning or puts the pitcher in a spot where the pitcher can sacrifice.
Boagie- You're right. I failed to mention I was referring to situations with runners on.
In just about every spot in the lineup just getting on base is a good outcome, but batting ahead of the pitcher, just getting on is not a good outcome a lot of the time.
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Post by Rog on Apr 12, 2016 1:11:16 GMT -5
Since the thread has to do with managers, did Bruce make a mistake in Saturday's game by not putting Joe Panik in for Kelby Tomlinson for defensive purposes? As great as Brandon Crawford is at shortstop, Ehire Adrianza is darn good himself, but Joe is clearly ahead of Kelby at the keystone.
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Post by klaiggeb on Apr 12, 2016 9:50:58 GMT -5
I would have made that change, Rog, but realistically, Bochy could not.
It's early in the season and Joey needed the day off.
Plus, to have made the switch could have had long lasting effects working against Kelby; as in him starting to doubt himself at 2b more than he already does.
boly
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Post by Islandboagie on Apr 12, 2016 11:51:51 GMT -5
The question that popped in my head was in the bottom of the inning, when Tomlinson was due up. Would you have pinch hit Panik for Tomlinson, or let Tomlinson try to redeem himself? I think I would have picked the latter.
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Post by Islandboagie on Apr 12, 2016 12:14:57 GMT -5
Boly- I would have made that change, Rog, but realistically, Bochy could not.
It's early in the season and Joey needed the day off.
Boagie- I disagree with you, Boly. I don't think you would have made the change, because I don't believe anyone even thought about it prior to that error. Tomlinson at second wasn't a glaring issue. He's a solid defender that doesn't need a defensive replacement late in the game. If it were the 7th game of the World Series, most likely.
After the play it's very easy to say we would have brought in Panik. But nobody would have made that move prior to that. Nobody on the face of this earth on Saturday was yelling at the TV "get Panik in there on defense!"
You just have to chalk it up to a mistake by Tomlinson. If the same situation happens a few days from now I think Bochy would play it exactly the same, as would I.
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Post by donk33 on Apr 12, 2016 14:18:41 GMT -5
how many guys expected Bochy to pinch hit Posey for Brown in the "almost" no hitter.....I was happy he went against my advice....
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Post by Islandboagie on Apr 12, 2016 15:00:05 GMT -5
As I recall Posey was going to pinch hit for the pitcher's spot and was on deck when Brown hit the homerun. After the homerun they pulled him back.
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Post by Rog on Apr 13, 2016 7:23:08 GMT -5
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Post by Rog on Apr 13, 2016 7:24:37 GMT -5
I would have made that change, Rog, but realistically, Bochy could not. It's early in the season and Joey needed the day off. Plus, to have made the switch could have had long lasting effects working against Kelby; as in him starting to doubt himself at 2b more than he already does. Rog -- Good point. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3257/manager-ego#ixzz45i0TBJx2 |
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Post by Rog on Apr 13, 2016 7:26:02 GMT -5
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