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Post by Islandboagie on Nov 16, 2015 11:48:18 GMT -5
I wouldn't want to, Boly. I like Duffy and Panik. But if Arroyo and or Tomlinson force the issue, and the Giants could get a significant amount in return for Duffy or Panik, they would have to at least consider it.
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sfgdood
Long time member 
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Nov 16, 2015 12:02:22 GMT -5
the only way I'd consider trading any of our infielders, except Belt, is if we fail miserably in rebuilding our rotation. But even then I'd be wary
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Post by klaiggeb on Nov 16, 2015 12:38:40 GMT -5
Personally, I think Belt is on the cusp of having a HUGE year.
HUGE!
These last 2 seasons when healthy, he's shown signs of being the guy we've been waiting for.
Then again... that concussion thing is still lingering.
I would not be adverse to moving him, and, as I've frequently said, putting Posey at 1B full time.
That can't happen unless Susac is ready to take over... and if healthy, I believe he is ready.
Yeah, yeah; I know the argument: Posey is a great handler of pitchers, and all that. I get it.
But Belt COULD bring us a center fielder which I think we need. and make no mistake; The need for a CF, I believe, is the next priority AFTER starting pitching... which is why I'm not an advocate of either Upton, nor Cespedes.
Then again, for me to move Belt, the deal would have to be a good fit, not just a deal to move him for picks.
boly
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Post by klaiggeb on Nov 16, 2015 12:48:58 GMT -5
boagie-But if Arroyo and or Tomlinson force the issue,
****bolys says*****
Personally, boagie, I believe at least Tomlinson IS going to force the issue next spring, and I think he's going to force that issue on 2 levels:
1- He'll prove he CAN play lf, and 2, his bat.
He showed me last year that he can handle the pitching in the Show and handle it well.
And that speed...I like that speed at the top of the line up.
That's one of the reasons I suggested when he came up last year, that in the off season, he learn to play the OF.
In some ways he reminds me of Panik and Duffy; he came to the big club with a number of things in his favor:
1-Smart hitter, smart player, good baseball mind.
2-Not awed by the situation or the level of competition.
3-Knows how to handle the bat and go the other way.
4-Shows a keen ability to put the barrel on the ball just like Joe and Matt.
He's arm is above average, but IMHO, his hands are simply not soft enough to play a middle infield spot, which removes him from
the "super sub" category with which people have labeled him.
Does he still have a LOT to learn?
Oh my God, yes!
He's fast, for sure, but all that speed is useless if he DOESN'T learn to get better reads on the pitchers so he can become a better base stealer.
boly
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Post by Islandboagie on Nov 16, 2015 12:49:18 GMT -5
If you could trade Belt straight up for Aroldis Chapman would you do it?
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Post by Islandboagie on Nov 16, 2015 12:54:56 GMT -5
Boly- Does he still have a LOT to learn?
Oh my God, yes!
He's fast, for sure, but all that speed is useless if he DOESN'T learn to get better reads on the pitchers so he can become a better base stealer.
Boagie- Base stealing is overrated in my opinion, base running however makes a difference, he's already a good base runner. But I agree, he's a good player that still has a lot to learn. If he can learn to play LF then no move needs to be made. But if he and Arroyo continue to impress, a move could be made.
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Post by klaiggeb on Nov 16, 2015 12:59:24 GMT -5
Belt for Chapman?
In a heartbeat with one caveat: IF Chapman comes with a 1 year contract, no.
I don't make a deal in which he's FA eligible in 1 or 2 years.
Bochy could and would maximize Chapman, and setting up with Castilla or Romo... now that's my idea of closing out a game!
boly
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Post by klaiggeb on Nov 16, 2015 13:02:05 GMT -5
boagieBoagie- Base stealing is overrated in my opinion,
****boly says***
We're never going to agree here, boagie. Never.
If we're talking 15 or 20 SB I might agree, but I've BEEN that pitcher facing a GREAT base stealer and I'm here to tell you THAT changes a pitchers perspective on EVERYTHING.
When you've got a guy who can steal 30+ bases and WILL RUN... your concentration is split and that's not good.
That split concentration effects your delivery because you feel you must be "quicker," and that effects location, velocity and movement.
Trust me. I've been there.
Don't trust me? Trust Krukow. He always talks about how a good base stealer effects the pitchers.
boly
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Post by Islandboagie on Nov 16, 2015 13:16:14 GMT -5
If you're asking me if I'd rather have Tomlinson steal 60 bases, rather than 15, of course I would.
But I'd much rather have a well balanced player, than one with just the ability to steal bases.
For example, I'd rather have a 2012 Angel Pagan than a Michael Bourne type. Bourne is a great base stealer, but it doesn't close the gap for the lack of offensive contributions.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Nov 16, 2015 13:48:53 GMT -5
I'd make that trade too quickly for the Reds to change their minds and tell Posey to take as many grounders as he can this offseason. It's a moot point, though, because the Reds have Joey V.
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Post by Islandboagie on Nov 16, 2015 13:54:47 GMT -5
Belt can play the outfield too. But I didn't really put much thought into the trade, I was just giving an example of trading one of our infielders for value and how it would benefit us.
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Post by klaiggeb on Nov 16, 2015 14:19:47 GMT -5
Can you imagine Belt's power upside in THAT cracker box in Cincinnati?
He'd have the potential to hit 40+ HRs with as many fly balls as he hits.
boly
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Post by klaiggeb on Nov 16, 2015 14:22:14 GMT -5
Boagie:
If you're talking a Michael Bourne type of player, then I do agree.
I've never been fans of those types.
As the old saying goes, you can't steal 1B.
But Tomlinson is not like that, and has always had very good OBP, and THAT'S the kind of guy that I want; one who gets on a LOT, and steals bases.
Pagan is another guy I never wanted leading off, but whom I could live with.
For me, the cut off point is .350 OBP.
If you can't get on at that rate, you shouldn't be hitting one hole.
boly
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Post by Rog on Nov 16, 2015 21:43:42 GMT -5
He's arm is above average, but IMHO, his hands are simply not soft enough to play a middle infield spot, which removes him from the "super sub" category with which people have labeled him. Does he still have a LOT to learn? Oh my God, yes! He's fast, for sure, but all that speed is useless if he DOESN'T learn to get better reads on the pitchers so he can become a better base stealer. Rog -- I hate to keep disagreeing, but I think Tomlinson's hands are good enough to play second base. He greatly improved his pivot under the tutelage of Ron Wotus. If his arm is strong enough, perhaps he can even learn to play shortstop well enough to be a backup there. Apparently he is a little slow in taking to the outfield, but hopefully he'll find enough there to help out too. As for his base stealing, I think you may be underestimating him. He stole 126 bases in 163 tries in the minors. That's very good. Admittedly he hasn't fared as well at Sacramento and San Francisco, but the sample is small. IIRC he had another base stolen for the Giants before coming off the bag briefly. Without instant replay he would have been safe. I find it intriguing that replay is showing runners coming off the bag briefly. I've long felt they did so, but it's hard to see at full speed. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3101/2015-fielding-bible-awards?page=2#ixzz3riEsBz7e |
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Post by Rog on Nov 16, 2015 21:49:39 GMT -5
Belt for Chapman? In a heartbeat with one caveat: IF Chapman comes with a 1 year contract, no. I don't make a deal in which he's FA eligible in 1 or 2 years. Rog -- Aroldis is eligible for free agency a year from now. Belt is eligible in two years. Given that I believe Chapman has starter potential and Belt has health questions, I would jump on that one and take my chances on re-upping Chapman. I too have talked about taking a player only if he his signed for a while, but that just isn't at all likely to happen. When is the last time we can think of it happening? Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3101/2015-fielding-bible-awards?page=2#ixzz3riGp4t4Z |
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Post by Rog on Nov 16, 2015 21:58:54 GMT -5
Something tells me you want them to trade Brandon because you won't have to be reminded all the time about how wrong you were about him. Rog -- All I can tell you is that you're wrong, Boagie. I'm disappointed that you don't know me better than that? If I wanted Brandon traded because I didn't want to be reminded of something I've already pled guilty to, why would my second choice be to extend him? Why was my FIRST choice a year to extend him then? Why did I defend his fielding when he got off to a slow start in 2012? I realize we can't remember everything everyone said or thought, but just ask me if you can't remember. You saw the reasons I gave for trading Brandon, didn't you? What were your thoughts on them? Oh, and I just said he was the second-coolest player on the team. I'm really sorry I didn't convince you of my objectivity here, Boagie. One last point. While Brandon certainly performed better last season than I ever thought he would, please keep my original comments in context. I didn't say he would be a terrible hitter. I said he wouldn't hit nearly as well at his 1.000+ OPS at that moment indicated he might. Still, I missed on Brandon, and I have admitted so. That's one of the reasons I'm disappointed in your opinion. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3101/2015-fielding-bible-awards?page=2#ixzz3riIZwf34 |
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Post by Rog on Nov 16, 2015 22:01:16 GMT -5
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Post by Rog on Nov 16, 2015 22:05:23 GMT -5
Boagie- Base stealing is overrated in my opinion, base running however makes a difference, he's already a good base runner. Rog -- I think both base stealing and base running are overrated, and I love to watch them both. By the way, one thing I suggested a long time ago was taking more risks in base running. The break even point in base stealing is just over two out of three. Clearly the break even point in base running must be about the same. Even the worst base runners rarely get thrown out. I think taking more risk on the bases is a good idea. And I'm a guy who HATES outs on the bases. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3101/2015-fielding-bible-awards?page=2#ixzz3riL5pYnh |
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Post by Rog on Nov 17, 2015 2:06:09 GMT -5
This fielding thing is crazy.
I originally mentioned here that the Braves' Andrelton Simmons was a unanimous winner of The Fielding Shortstop Award. Not just the winner, but the unanimous winner.
Then came the Giants' Brandon Crawford winning the NL Shortstop Gold Glove.
Now I see that Simmons was named the Wilson Defensive Player of the Year. Not just the best defensive shortstop, but the best defensive player regardless of position.
Remember that while Simmons was the leader in most of the statistical defensive shortstop ratings, Crawford himself won a few, and his best in the SABR Defensive Index helped him win the Gold Glove.
I'd almost go so far as to say that the more we know, the more confusing it gets. Although not quite. Usually the more we know, the clearer things get -- but not always.
In this case I can respect an opinion for either player, but anyone who says unequivocally that Crawford is the best fielding shortstop in baseball is being hard-headed. Not to say that he isn't, but anyone who ignores Simmons' UNANIMOUS Fielding Bible Award and Wilson's picking him as the best defender in baseball, irrespective of position and says Brandon is clearly the guy is perhaps showing a little too much confidence in his own judgments.
But, as I say, it gets confusinger and confusinger. Which is one reason why saying Crawford is the best without a doubt is just plain crazy. Then again, the whole thing's crazy, so why not?
I'm pretty proud of my judgments too, but I usually leave room for a little doubt. Beauty is after all in the eye of the beholder, and defense is very hard to measure. Sometimes it just comes down to whether we prefer blondes, brunettes or redheads.
But if the vast majority prefers one color or the other, I try to be pretty careful before I fly in the face of that. If we fly in the face of the majority, we need to be prepared to build a very strong case for doing so.
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