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Duffy
Aug 28, 2015 16:02:21 GMT -5
Post by klaiggeb on Aug 28, 2015 16:02:21 GMT -5
Even though he's still learning the position, I'm going to up front and say that Duffy's defense isn't a little better than Pablo's defense, (and I though his was pretty good!), but a lot better.
He ranges WAAAAAY over to his left to flag down balls, and, like Pablo, he's very accurate.
Still leaning stuff over there, but he's been very, very good.
boly
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
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Duffy
Aug 28, 2015 17:10:17 GMT -5
Post by sfgdood on Aug 28, 2015 17:10:17 GMT -5
Hyper-Boly has returned. I like Duffy too but I think your hate for Pablo is clouding your memory now. Now if you're comparing Duffy to out of shape, Pablo, you have a point. But Pablo at his best was a gold glove finalist twice. Duffy, IMO, has a long ways to go before he reaches that level.
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Duffy
Aug 28, 2015 20:03:49 GMT -5
Post by klaiggeb on Aug 28, 2015 20:03:49 GMT -5
Hyper boly?
If that's hyper, you seem to have forgotton how HYPER I can get.
This ain't it.
Again, Randy, you're missing my point, and you still don't understand that I DON'T hate Pablo.
I'm angry at him; really TICKED at him... but hate? No frickin' way!
Duffy JUST STARTED at 3B.
Pablo's runs at gold gloves came AFTER he was at 3B for a LEAST ONE YEAR.
And if you really believe Pablo had more range to his left than Duffy... Randy, I submit you're looking at this through the predjudiced eyes you accuse me of having.
I HAVE NO axe to grind against Pablo OTHER THAN his lying.
What I'm saying is this, plain and simple.
In his 1st season at 3B, learning while ON THE JOB... he has shown an increasingly widening range to his left.
He's more spry, and has a SS range.
Pablo had really good range, and soft, soft hands.
Honestly, he DESERVED at least one good glove.
Here's my points.
1-Duffy's range to his LEFT. THAT WAS MY PRIMARY POINT.
2-That he's as accurate as Pablo was... which was darned good!
3-That BECAUSE of that range, he's more than a little better, he's a lot better.
That's it.
boly
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Duffy
Aug 28, 2015 20:05:13 GMT -5
Post by klaiggeb on Aug 28, 2015 20:05:13 GMT -5
Randy, one serious question. And I mean that. A SERIOUS question.
How come any time anyone posts anything that's not glowing about Pablo, you accuse them of Pablo-hate?
Seriously. Why?
That's not accurate, and it's not fair.
boly
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Duffy
Aug 28, 2015 23:30:58 GMT -5
Post by sfgdood on Aug 28, 2015 23:30:58 GMT -5
I've just seen way too much of it (not just here but elsewhere too)...the good, if not great, value we received from Pablo gets forgotten because of his regrettable behavior upon leaving. I always have thought Pablo's defense gets underrated by people whining about his weight. Now granted when he let himself go, it definitely effected his range badly. But at his best, Pablo had just as much range, and I'd say his range was better to his left than Duffy's--thus far--because Matt kicks too many balls going to that side. Pablo began as a catcher, therefore his transition, I would argue, was more of a challenge than Duffy's.
As of this time, I haven't seen from Matt what I would expect from a Gold Glove finalist. As you say, it's his first year and he can get there possibly. But he isn't there yet and therefore it is premature to call him better than a multiple Gold Glove finalist.
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Duffy
Aug 29, 2015 1:00:20 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Islandboagie on Aug 29, 2015 1:00:20 GMT -5
Pablo had his strengths defensively. He had great hands and a strong accurate arm. If I'm just out to bad-mouth Sandoval I wouldn't be saying any of that. Sandoval was good at making the play down the line, to his right, because making that play depends a lot on having a strong accurate arm. However, making the play in the hole, and fielding slow grounders on the infield were his weakness, because those plays require range. Duffy makes those plays, because he has range.
As far as the Gold Glove goes, Pablo played during a time when there were no standout defensive third baseman. He came after Scott Rolen's prime years. Now it looks like Nolan Arenado will take over. Between those two, there wasn't much. Heck, even Placido Polanco won a gold glove during those between years, and he was just a utility infielder.
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Duffy
Aug 29, 2015 10:26:02 GMT -5
Post by klaiggeb on Aug 29, 2015 10:26:02 GMT -5
Randy, in all the years I watched, and enjoyed, Pablo at third, I, too, thought he was WAAAAY under rated.
But never, ever did I see Pablo range as far to his left as I've seen Duffy.
Again last night, he was almost infront of the SS taking groundballs that would have been tough plays for an average SS.
I never, EVER mentioned Duffy for a Gold Glove.
I just contend he has more range to his left than Pablo....whom, I believe had SOFTER hands than Duffy.
boly
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Post by rxmeister on Aug 29, 2015 11:32:26 GMT -5
And last night Pablo hit a dribbler in front of the plate and was ejected for arguing that the ball was foul.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Duffy
Aug 29, 2015 13:43:24 GMT -5
Post by sfgdood on Aug 29, 2015 13:43:24 GMT -5
See, it's comments like this one that have nothing to do with the subject that confirm the abject Pablo hate here
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Duffy
Aug 29, 2015 18:04:05 GMT -5
Post by klaiggeb on Aug 29, 2015 18:04:05 GMT -5
Not hate, Randy. Disgust.
Disgust with what he did to Giant fans.
Disgust with what he's allowed himself to become.
Not hate.
Not even close.
boly
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Duffy
Aug 29, 2015 18:09:32 GMT -5
Post by sfgdood on Aug 29, 2015 18:09:32 GMT -5
I would suggest that ONLY hate could produce such a snide comment that, as I pointed out, had exactly ZERO to do with the subject matter being discussed
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Duffy
Aug 29, 2015 18:23:40 GMT -5
Post by klaiggeb on Aug 29, 2015 18:23:40 GMT -5
But it does have to do with the thread, Randy, because people are still angry with what Pablo did to the Giants and Giant fans.
That anger isn't going away anytime soon.
The disgust is because we saw him at his best, and what we see now, IMHO, is ego at it's worst.
Which I consider to be the heart of the problem; ego.
Or, as my long dead father would have said about Pablo: "He seems to think his s_ _ t don't stink."
And that's the way I see him, too.
Ego is a terrible, terrible thing.
boly
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Duffy
Aug 29, 2015 18:27:07 GMT -5
Post by sfgdood on Aug 29, 2015 18:27:07 GMT -5
I get...anger, hate, etc...but the subject was his defense as compared with Duffy's. Rx took a cheap shot out of anger and hate and it didn't have anything to do with defensive ability
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Duffy
Aug 30, 2015 14:41:11 GMT -5
Post by sfgdood on Aug 30, 2015 14:41:11 GMT -5
just saw Pablo make a play where he ranged quickly to his left, made a diving pick on a high hop, got up and gunned down the hitter. FWIW
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Duffy
Aug 31, 2015 0:39:34 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Islandboagie on Aug 31, 2015 0:39:34 GMT -5
Pablo has made many plays like the one you're describing. But, he very rarely ranged a good distance to his left and stayed on his feet. Plays like this got him noticed for gold glove consideration because his belly flop made it look more difficult than it really was. A play like this would have probably been made by Duffy without leaving his feet.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Duffy
Aug 31, 2015 1:13:15 GMT -5
Post by sfgdood on Aug 31, 2015 1:13:15 GMT -5
You might be right...that is if Matt didn't boot the ball
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Post by rxmeister on Aug 31, 2015 7:04:48 GMT -5
The subject is Matt Duffy, the third baseman of the San Francisco Giants, so mentioning the man he replaced and what an improvement he is at a fraction of the cost absolutely is fair game. Stop being a partial pom pom waving fan boy who gets hurt at every negative comment about your hero. If you think I changed the subject, ignore it and get it back on track.
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Duffy
Sept 4, 2015 12:37:59 GMT -5
Post by Rog on Sept 4, 2015 12:37:59 GMT -5
I agree with Randy that Pablo at his best was a better defensive third baseman than Matt Duffy presently is. Going forward, I think Matt's defense is likely to be easily the better of the two.
I think there may be a misunderstanding here that there is hatred for Pablo. I think most of us here actually loved to watch Pablo play. But all we (and the Giants) had to do was look at his hitting since 2011, and it was clear that he was declining. Once a very good hitter from the right side, he was turning into a very poor one.
Is it showing hatred for either Pablo or for the Giants' front office to say that Pablo saved the Giants from themselves. I happen to like both parties, but have believed that statement now for about 10 months.
I probably have been seen by some here as a Pablo hater, but in reality, it was more that I was a fact (or at least strong indication) lover.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Duffy
Sept 4, 2015 13:15:51 GMT -5
Post by sfgdood on Sept 4, 2015 13:15:51 GMT -5
When I see a snide comment about someone that has nothing at all to do with the subject being discussed...and then I see nobody denouncing it...yeah, I call that hate. Maybe you call it something different but that's how I see it.
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Duffy
Sept 9, 2015 11:56:46 GMT -5
Post by Rog on Sept 9, 2015 11:56:46 GMT -5
See, it's comments like this one that have nothing to do with the subject that confirm the abject Pablo hate here Rog -- I understand you point here. Perhaps we should stop with the Pablo comments. But oft times I think they are made because you were so adamant that the Giants should re-sign Pablo. And you seem to reject the suggestions of others, such as Chase Headley, who now has a shorter, less expensive contract than Pablo and has badly outplayed Pablo this season. In short, you make very strong comments, chastise those who disagree with you, and make lots of mistakes. Then you mistake comments such as Mark made about Pablo as "Pablo hate." Just be a little more reasonable and far less sharp in your opinions, and you won't see things such as the "Pablo hate" you imagine. What you mistake as "Pablo hate" may be more a rebuke of you. Simply be more prudent when expressing your opinions, be more tolerant of the opinions of others, and be the first to admit when you make mistakes such as giving up on the 2012 -- or was it 2014? -- Giants in early August. We all make mistakes here, and we're all too intolerant of others at times. Perhaps we should endeavor to improve, particularly with regard to the latter. You could lead the way, Randy, by taking down the comments that show up on the left side of every post you make. They show both intolerance and a huge lack of understanding. To put them out there every single time is insulting -- mostly to you. And, yes, I understand you don't care what I say, which is a great defense mechanism for you. Incidentally, I do care what you say and would like good reason to respect it more. There was a time when I truly did. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3011/duffy#ixzz3lGEImN71
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Duffy
Sept 9, 2015 12:48:29 GMT -5
Post by Rog on Sept 9, 2015 12:48:29 GMT -5
You might be right...that is if Matt didn't boot the ball Rog -- This is what I mean, Randy. You try to put down a comment on Matt's better range than Pablo by changing the subject to Matt's booting the ball, which has little to do with his range. Let's put your comment about Matt's alleged "booting of the ball," which may have been the case in a particular play, but not so much overall. Matt has booted six balls for error this season, which is two less than Pablo's eight. In his past five seasons, Pablo has booted 8,8,7,5 and 8 balls, which is pretty much the same pace as Matt this season. Matt has made four throwing errors this season. In his past five seasons Pablo has made 2,6,11,6 and 7. In total errors, Matt has made 10 this season. Pablo has made 10,13,18,11 and 15 the past five years. Matt has shown better range and made fewer errors. My personal feeling is that Pablo at his best was a better fielder than Matt this season. I also feel that overall, Matt has fielded better this season than Pablo has over Pablo's career. Matt has badly outhit Pablo this season, but over their careers, they are closer than one would think, even though they are much different types of hitters. Pablo's career OPS is .784; Matt's is .755. You spoke of how Pablo's departure would leave the Giants with very little power, projecting that the Giants might not be able to hit even 100 homers this season. Well, Matt's 10 homers are exactly the same number as Pablo, and the Giants have already hit 116 homers. This so-called "Pablo hate" by the rest of us appears to be "Pablo defensiveness" on your part. Pablo has had a fine career. He's been declining since 2011. Just as was the case a year ago when you were all upset that the Giants didn't re-sign him. In looking up Pablo's stats, I came across a couple of related articles on Fan Graphs. On 11/26, Enos Sarris, in his article "What do the Giants do now?, suggested signing Chase Headley, Aaron Harang and Torii Hunter. Headley has fared well, while Harang and Hunter have failed. The Giants themselves went for McGehee, Peavy and Aoki, who have outperformed both Sandoval and Sarris' recommendations -- at much lower prices and shorter commitments. The other article was written by Matthew Kory on 6/22 entitled "What if Boston had traded Hanley Ramirez and Pablo Sandoval?" It was based on Ken Rosenthal's article "The Red Sox need to dump Sandoval, Ramirez, like, now." Kory concludes that the Red Sox would have a hard time replacing the pair, would have to eat a lot of the pair's contracts. He said trading Sandoval and Ramirez would be like hanging out a sign that said "Free Agents Shouldn't Bother." In other words, barring a turnaround by the two -- in the field by Ramirez and both in the field and at the plate by Sandoval -- the Red Sox had already hung themselves. The two players didn't turn it around (There's always next year.), and Ramirez's glove has put him at a -1.2 WAR. Pablo's bat and glove have combined for a -0.7 WAR. In other words, the two have combined to be worth two wins LESS than two replacement players, who at least would likely have been able to field. That the Giants didn't re-sign Pablo was a great break. Too bad the Dodgers didn't re-sign Ramirez. Let's take a look at the Giants if they had re-signed Pablo. They're already 8 1/2 games out. If they had Pablo's -0.7 WAR instead of Matt's 3.9 WAR, they might be somewhere around 13 games out. With four games at home remaining with the Dodgers, there is still a sliver of a thread of hope. At 13 games back, they would be alive only in mathematical terms. This season probably wasn't going to turn out well. Pablo's WAR is -0.7. Jon Lester's is a decent but not season-turning 2.0. James Shields' is 1.7, and he's the oldest player in the group. Yasmany Tomas' glove kills his bat, and his WAR is -0.9. One could argue that the Giants best moves in order over the lives of the contracts would have been: 1. Not signing any of the four 2. Signing Shields. 3. Signing Tomas. 4. Signing Lester. 5. Signing Pablo. Both the Giants and some here would have simply re-signed Pablo. The season has indeed been frustrating. If they had re-signed Pablo, it appears it would have been a disaster. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3011/duffy?page=1#ixzz3lGHN50JB
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Duffy
Sept 9, 2015 12:54:46 GMT -5
Post by sfgdood on Sept 9, 2015 12:54:46 GMT -5
Let me get this straight now...the snide irrelevant comments about Pablo are MY fault because I have respect for his contribution to our 3 titles? And I'm supposed to be "less sharp" with my comments and remove or replace my tagline in order to change YOUR behavior? Do you not see how silly that sounds?
Look maybe I have a closer connection to Pablo since I've been a huge fan of his since his days in San Jose. Regardless, I do understand why his less than thoughtful actions and statements since last December have caused bitterness amongst many Giants fans. And I acknowledge that to this point, his contract has looked to be a bad one for Boston and it could very well turn out to be a blessing for the Giants to have avoided it. I was in fact for his re-signing and against signing Headly and others like him, although in retrospect Headly would have worked out much better than trading for McGehee did.
It's obvious that you, as many stats geeks, judge a contract by pure individual numbers and how they correlate with the salary paid. I look at it differently. Yes individual numbers matter, but it's equally or more important to me what success the team had and whether or not the player contributed to it. What his production to salary ratio is doesn't concern me. For example, Barry Zito's contract is widely seen as being a bad one in the general sense. His numbers clearly did not match up with his salary. But before Barry became a Giant, the team had zero titles in SF. After his contract ended the team had 2 WS trophies. Yes maybe his contributions can be somewhat questioned in 2010 but in 2012 it's very likely we would have lost the NLCS without Zito's huge Game 5 performance.
One last note...you keep going back to that "you gave up too early" card (in 2012, btw...I didn't give up in 2014, mostly because the first 2 months showed what the team was capable of). But you have yet to give me credit for seeing the writing on the wall correctly when so many here were blindly backing the poor moves by the front office which have led to us today looking at a Tragic Number in the teens way too early in September.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Duffy
Sept 9, 2015 13:37:15 GMT -5
Post by sfgdood on Sept 9, 2015 13:37:15 GMT -5
This so-called "Pablo hate" by the rest of us appears to be "Pablo defensiveness" on your part.
Pablo has had a fine career. He's been declining since 2011. Just as was the case a year ago when you were all upset that the Giants didn't re-sign him.
In looking up Pablo's stats, I came across a couple of related articles on Fan Graphs.
Dood - not all of it constitutes hate, but RX's off subject comment clearly did since it was out of left field. Maybe my defense of Pablo is off base too...time will tell. But the guy is only 28...I think it's ridiculous for you to give up on him while still backing Belt who has yet to have a season to equal some of Pablo's best and is less than a year younger. I won't even get into the mental blunders.
The bottom line is we all have our favorites and those we have less regard for. But if the dislike is on a personal level you are apt to disregard contributions on the field and in the clubhouse. That does a disservice to the player and diminishes the credibility of your argument. I had a hard time understanding why you, in particular, tried so hard and so long to discredit Pablo. Taken individually, I wouldn't necessarily think any of your arguments constituted hate...but you opened SO MANY new threads basically trying to put down Pablo's worth. It got to seem very personal for you, much as you believed my defense of him to also be personal.
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Duffy
Sept 9, 2015 16:26:08 GMT -5
Post by Rog on Sept 9, 2015 16:26:08 GMT -5
I think it's ridiculous for you to give up on him while still backing Belt who has yet to have a season to equal some of Pablo's best and is less than a year younger. Rog -- There are two reasons I think it is far from ridiculous: First, after a very tough rookie season, Brandon's career has been mostly on an upswing. Second, Brandon is having a good year this season, while Pablo is struggling. That is why I said over the winter that I felt Brandon was a better player than Pablo. You made a good point that Pablo is only 28 (actually, 29, but he turned it just a month ago). There is no question Psblo could bounce back. He did so in 2011. And he should still be in the prime of his career, age-wise. But Pablo's body appears to be a "very old" 29. Pablo has plenty of time to bounce back, and I hope he will. As a Giant, he was among my favorites. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3011/duffy#ixzz3lHLu9siH
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Duffy
Sept 9, 2015 16:28:27 GMT -5
Post by Rog on Sept 9, 2015 16:28:27 GMT -5
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Duffy
Sept 10, 2015 12:34:01 GMT -5
Post by sfgdood on Sept 10, 2015 12:34:01 GMT -5
But Pablo's body appears to be a "very old" 29.
Dood - I've always had a hard time grasping this concept. Are you a doctor and, if so, have you given Pablo a thorough physical examination? Or is it simply that his body isn't one that one would normally associate with athleticism? There have been many cases of very good baseball players that were on the stocky side, including the one many consider the best player of all time, Babe Ruth. Ok...Pablo is not very athletic-looking. I get that. But he is, in fact, just 29. 29 year olds can much more easily get in great shape if they are motivated to do so than are older players. I don't know whether he will or not...but this "very old" 29 thing seems like something a non-physician would say with absolutely ZERO basis or frame of reference.
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Duffy
Sept 10, 2015 17:00:16 GMT -5
Post by klaiggeb on Sept 10, 2015 17:00:16 GMT -5
The issue with Pablo has been, and continues to be his weight.
There was an article that came out yesterday explaining why NOT signing Pablo was a smart move, and one of the things they referenced was Pablo's weight; that based upon his history, is ALWAYS going to be an issue.
anyway, that's what the article said.
So if that's the position from which Roger is saying an "old" 29, I understand what he means, Randy, even though I would not have chosen to say it in that manner.
I love what he did for us! Love it!
But IMHO, his ego about how good he was/is, I think, is/was his downfall.
boly
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Duffy
Sept 10, 2015 18:03:43 GMT -5
Post by sfgdood on Sept 10, 2015 18:03:43 GMT -5
to me, the only time a body could maybe be said to be or look older than its actual age is one that has endured a slew of injuries in a relatively short period of time. With modern medicine, sports therapy and training methods, a young and relatively healthy player has advantages that weren't available in the old days. If we're talking about diminished skills, that's different, but there's no way I count out a 29 year old from regaining full strength and production. All that's needed is self-discipline and hours at the gym.
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Duffy
Sept 12, 2015 6:32:19 GMT -5
Post by Rog on Sept 12, 2015 6:32:19 GMT -5
But Pablo's body appears to be a "very old" 29. Dood - I've always had a hard time grasping this concept. Rog -- Weight puts more strain on joints, muscles, ligaments and tendons. Pablo has lots of weight (255 pounds the last I saw), so he has aged those areas more quickly than slimmer players. Has anyone here ever heard something different about Pablo's body? By the way, I don't hold a grudge against Pablo. Maybe he handled it immaturely, but as a free agent, he was free (hence the phrase) to play for whichever team would sign him. And as it turned out, he appears to have done the Giants a big favor. One of my favorite things about Pablo is how a left-hander can have such a strong right arm. And, for that matter, how such a heavy dude can be so light on his feet, or at least have such good footwork. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3011/duffy#ixzz3lWTdjExY
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Duffy
Sept 12, 2015 6:35:18 GMT -5
Post by Rog on Sept 12, 2015 6:35:18 GMT -5
there's no way I count out a 29 year old from regaining full strength and production. All that's needed is self-discipline and hours at the gym. Rog -- I agree we shouldn't count Pablo out. And in his defense, I think he has done a lot of working out, and I believe he has a personal chef to help him. Not sure how faithful he is to his diet, but I think one of his big problems is a slow metabolism. I have a feeling too that he is in and out with his conditioning and perhaps his diet. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3011/duffy?page=1#ixzz3lWV1oUUM
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