Wow! Casey McGehee DFA'd

[Islandboagie]

Boly- Belt, though prone to some inexplicable slumps HAS a very good eye.

Boagie- He's got a good eye, his problem is he doesn't take big cuts on 2-0 and 3-1 counts. he'll take more of a defensive cut when he should be trying to knock it 500 ft.

[rxmeister]

With Heston, Lincecum and Vogey pitching well he might have proved that he's the luckiest GM in baseball, not the best.

[klaiggeb]

I can't tell if you're being faceateous here, Mark, or serious.

But there is no question, Sabean, in the last 6 years or so, has been incredible with the moves and deals he's made.

I'd be willing to bet that HIS moves have worked out not just a little better, but MUCH better than all of the GMs in baseball.

I mean, consider the moves he made in 2010 or the year before that set up that championship;

Ramirez, Lopez, Huff, Burrell, Uribe, Ross, Affeldt, Sanchez, Mota...

And that doesn't include bringing up Posey when he did, and easing Molina out.

In 2012, or the year before:

Scutaro, Cabrera, Renteria, Pagan, Pence... did I leave anyone out?

And for last year's run?

Peavy, Hudson, Panik, Morse, Duffy, Susac, who did I forget?


And none of those lists include Machi, or Petit, both of whom were considered career minor leaguers.


He's done purdy darned well!

Yeah, he's had some flops. That comes with the job, but HIS incredible number of "guessed rights!" far exceed what any other GM has done in my memory.

boly

[sfgdood]

you left out a few...like Tejada, DeRosa, Francouer, Tanaka, Cabrera, Hall, Huff(2nd contract), Uggla, Abreu and Guillen...not to mention 6-4-3 McGehee

[klaiggeb]

No question, he's had his shares of bad calls.

But I defy anyone to name me a GM that has done better, with the financial restraints he's had to work under (before this off season), or a GM who has made as many clutch pick ups as he has to GET us into a World series.

Answer is; there isn't one.

boly

[sfgdood]

financial restraints? Dude the team is top 5 in revenue AND team value. It's not like we're the Expos.

[rxmeister]

Sabean's been good at low cost pickups, but look around the team Boly. I'm now going to list the players he's overpaid, and it's a long one. McGehee, Pagan, Blanco, Romo, Affeldt, Lopez, Cain, Lincecum, Vogelsong, Peavy, Hudson. That's eleven players, most of them pitchers. Fortunately, the minors have provided many cheap solutions, so the team has survived. That's the one thing he deserves credit for, but doesn't get any. Everyone says the system is barren, but every time they need someone to come up and perform, they do. I'm not going to sit here and say he's a bad GM, or even an average one, but he falls short of elite in my opinion.

[Islandboagie]

Randy- I'm now going to list the players he's overpaid, and it's a long one. McGehee, Pagan, Blanco, Romo, Affeldt, Lopez, Cain, Lincecum, Vogelsong, Peavy, Hudson. That's eleven players, most of them pitchers.

Boagie- Blanco and Vogey aren't overpaid. Not sure why they're included in your list. The rest are up for interpretation. In my opinion Matt Cain deserved his contract. Obviously McGehee stunk, no argument there. But most of the players on your list were also underpaid for what they accomplished in a Giants uniform and because of that they may have gotten a little bit more later to even the scale. That's being fair. And being fair is what has enabled the Giants to keep the nucleus of young players, and strong veteran bullpen together, which has resulted in 3 world championships.

I'm not complaining.

[Islandboagie]

Sorry, I accidentally quoted Randy, but it's Mark that said it.

[klaiggeb]

Randy-Sabean's been good at low cost pickups, but look around the team Boly. I'm now going to list the players he's overpaid, and it's a long one. McGehee, Pagan, Blanco, Romo, Affeldt, Lopez, Cain, Lincecum, Vogelsong, Peavy, Hudson. That's eleven players, most of them pitchers. Fortunately, the minors have provided many cheap solutions, so the team has survived. That's the one thing he deserves credit for, but doesn't get any. Everyone says the system is barren, but every time they need someone to come up and perform, they do. I'm not going to sit here and say he's a bad GM, or even an average one, but he falls short of elite in my opinion.

***boly says***

Randy, in these last 6 seasons, I believe he qualifies for the title, "elite," even though that's not a word I used to describe him, or would use to describe him.

I said simply that he was the best over the last bunch of years. Nothing more, nothing less.


Firstly, look around the league; EVERY team is full of over paid guys who, frankly, are NOT earning their pay.

Kemp, in SD comes to mind, Pujols on the Angels, would be another.


Secondly, now look at all the other teams in Major League baseball. ALL of the GM's, each and every one, has committed some massive boners when it comes to player personnel.

For a team with unlimited funds, Dodgers, Yankees, and others, the mistakes come, I believe, more frequently, because they can, in a sense, "spend" their way out of trouble. Which they do.

The Giants cannot.

They HAVE to do well with the majority of whom they sign. There is little room for error.

When it comes to signing mistakes, Sabean is no different than the other GMs. He's made his share and then some.

But what separates HIM from the rest of the flotsam is the % of time HE'S been right. Especially when it comes to players OTHER teams have blown off, or given up on. When he's NEEDED to come up big, he has. And he's done it to the tune of 3 World Series titles.

Huff, Burrell, Renteria, Ross, Peavy are the first names that come to mind.

There are others but those are just a few.

Thirdly, our farm system which CONTINUES to be maligned, CONTINUES to come up with players who can more than just fill a roster spot.

My goodness! Our entire infield is home grown!


It's easy to criticize Sabean in a vacuum where ALL we do is list his failures.

Everything changes though, when he's compared to the others. IMHO, when we do that, Sabean wins going away.

Not elite, but in the last 6 years, the best of all of them out there.

boly

[sfgdood]

I look at it this way...Sabean didn't all of a sudden get great after years of mediocrity. What changed? He had the sense to hire Bochy and he hit the lottery on some first round picks. I give Bochy FAR more credit than Sabean for our success, and here's the reasoning...the teams we built have been pretty good but not great in the regular season. The roster never is one that blows people away...missing the playoffs in odd numbered years confirms that. Bochy is brilliant at getting the most out of a roster and managing in short series. That is why we've been successful...the FO has been able to keep out of the way reasonably well but it's been Bochy and his staff that have been way more influential in the success.

[Rog]

Bruce Bochy is a very good manager, although possibly overrated. The opinions on Brian Sabean vary all over the place, although overall he is considered to be good.

The Giants have won a highly impressive three World Series in five years for a variety of reasons, with Bochy and Sabean being among them. More than anything, they have gotten hot at the right time. How much do Bochy and Sabean have to do with that? It's hard to say. It's really tough to give Sabean credit, although he is the one who puts together the roster and its resulting chemistry. Bochy is more immediately visible, although his primary contribution to the Giants' winning is his ability to aid its chemistry, not his strategical brilliance.

Because he's more immediately visible, it seems easy to credit Bochy for the success. But we probably should look at the three World Series to see.

The thing that stands out about the 2010 championship is the players the Giants added after the season began. That would seem to point to Sabean, not Bochy.

In 2012 it was the off-season acquisition of Angel Pagan plus the previous season's acquisition of Ryan Vogelsong coupled with the deadline acquisitions of Marco Scutaro and Hunter Pence. Again, the nod seems to go Sabean's way.

Last season the big spur was trading for Jake Peavy, a pitcher having a very poor season with Boston. With the Giants, he was marvelous. The calling up of Joe Panik -- a Sabean draftee -- and the capable filling in by Gregor Blanco for the second straight world championship were also key. Once again, Sabean is the man.

Again, it is clear that both contributed. But if we look at the primary difference between the championship seasons and the non-championship seasons, that difference is that the Giants were able to add players at mid-season in the successful years and not get as much mid-season contribution in the non-successful seasons.

Bochy is the more visible, but in fact more of the success is likely due to Sabean.

One point I have been meaning to make is that the Giants' chemistry may stem in part from the Giants' mostly keeping their important players together. Sometimes they have done so to a fault, but it is hard to argue that that DIDN'T contribute to the chemistry.

Then again, the Giants seem just fine without Pablo Sandoval, so who knows? The one thing we do know though is that in the three successful seasons, Sabean has done an excellent job of acquiring players. It is hard to argue that Bochy's managing was better in the good seasons than in the bad, but clearly the results achieved by Sabean was better than in the non-successful years.

[Rog]

Boly -- Sabean's been good at low cost pickups, but look around the team Boly. I'm now going to list the players he's overpaid, and it's a long one. McGehee, Pagan, Blanco, Romo, Affeldt, Lopez, Cain, Lincecum, Vogelsong, Peavy, Hudson.

Rog -- Let's look at them one-by-one.

McGehee -- so far a big over payment, or as big as a $5 million mistake can be.

Pagan -- If one argues that Pagan is considerably overpaid, he has to do so based on Angel's health, not his on-field performance (.287/.333/.404/.737). Angel is being paid like a middle-of-the-pack center fielder, and he's a ... middle-of-the-pack center fielder.

Blanco -- This one actually goes the other way. Gregor is making little money for a very good defensive outfielder with speed and .259/.345/.349/.694 at the plate. Without Blanco, the Giants would still have just one title. We don't think $8 million over four years (plus $4 million in 2016) is worth that?

Romo -- So far he's an overpay. Most relievers are.

Affeldt -- Not really. Jeremy has a 2.87 ERA as a Giant and has gotten them out of innumerable jams with his ability to generate double plays. The Giants have paid him $35 million over seven seasons. That's just about right.

Lopez -- This is a tough call, since Javier is a specialist. But he is considered one of the best specialists, as is illustrated by his outstanding 2.29 ERA as a Giant. And he's made "only" $19 million since being acquired mid-season 2010. He's owed $5 million for 2016. Hard to say he's WAY overpaid.

Cain -- Injury has made Matt an overpay.

Lincecum -- An overpay.

Vogelsong -- Actually a bargain. He's made $17 million in his five seasons as a Giant. For a pitcher with a winning record, a 3.84 ERA and 766 innings, that's very inexpensive.

Peavy -- An overpay due to injury, although the Giants almost certainly would have "only" two world championships without him.

Hudson -- 3.89 as a regular rotation member at 2/$23 is rather fair.

When we say that Brian has overpaid these guys -- and let's not forget that we're looking at ONLY the guys who were said to be overpaid, not those who would be considered fairly paid or even bargains -- we're forgetting the high cost of players in arbitration and especially free agency. Today it costs over $6 million per win, maybe even closer to $7 million. If we ignored those we don't think are overpaid and looked only at the above guys, I don't think we would find that as a group they are overpaid at all. Or certainly not by much.

If there is a culprit, it has been injury, not performance. When these "overpaid" players are healthy, as a group they've earned their keep. The only notable exception of much duration has been Lincecum.

Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2860/wow-casey-mcgehee-dfad?page=2#ixzz3deA68T47

[Rog]

Mark -- With Heston, Lincecum and Vogey pitching well he might have proved that he's the luckiest GM in baseball, not the best.

Rog -- The consensus seems to be that when Brian does well, it's his scouts or his luck, and when he fares poorly, it's his fault.





Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2860/wow-casey-mcgehee-dfad?page=2#ixzz3deGbQASI

[donk33]

how can the promotion of Panik be a plus for Sabean...he was the 8th guy they brought up to play second....and he was the final straw....and just think he could have saved $6M if he listened to me and ignored McGehee and gave the job to Duffy....also, they brag about the home grown infield, but Panik and Duffy were treated like non-prospects only good for utility jobs...why even Rog threw Crawford to the dumpster based on his stats......and last week, this whole board was ready to dump Crawford...

[Islandboagie]

Don- how can the promotion of Panik be a plus for Sabean...he was the 8th guy they brought up to play second

Boagie- It's not really a plus or minus for Sabean. Players promotions depend mainly on the situation for the club and development of the player.

Sabean did draft him though, along with the entire core of players that formed the last two dynasties in baseball (Yankees and Giants.) That wasn't an accident.


Don- and just think he could have saved $6M if he listened to me and ignored McGehee and gave the job to Duffy....

Boagie- I was right there with you, Don. I remember saying before Pablo was even signed by Boston that plan B should be letting Duffy play third and focusing on left field and a starting pitcher. But even I wouldn't have predicted the way Duffy has played thus far.

Obviously McGehee has been a big disappointment, but it's a far cry from the disappointment the Boston fans are feeling right now.


Don- also, they brag about the home grown infield, but Panik and Duffy were treated like non-prospects only good for utility jobs


Boagie- Considering they moved Panik to second, knowing that Crawford would man shortstop in the future, I don't think your comment holds much water.

And Duffy, he IS a utility player, but a very good one that the Giants need in the lineup. Matt Duffy wasn't a high draft pick, he probably wanted to be a utility player to be more of a value to a club. I don't see how being able to play multiple positions is a negative, I actually wish the Giants would do that more with the young players.


Don...why even Rog threw Crawford to the dumpster based on his stats


Boagie- I believe Rog has regretfully come to terms with his mistake.


Don-......and last week, this whole board was ready to dump Crawford...


Boagie- I don't recall anyone being ready to dump Crawford. But maybe some negative things were said, however, I'm part of this board, so I'm certain this WHOLE board was not ready to dump Crawford.

[Rog]

Don...why even Rog threw Crawford to the dumpster based on his stats


Boagie- I believe Rog has regretfully come to terms with his mistake.

Rog -- To make things clear, I have said that Brandon is hitting far better this season than I ever expected him to hit, and I have also pointed to his .247/.316/.374/.690 career figures as evidence that thus far his career numbers have been very modest. But I expect Brandon to continue to hit well and for his career numbers to also be higher than I expected. Hopefully they will be MUCH better than I expected.

For contest, it might be useful to know that I criticized his hitting when he was in San Jose and was batting .371/.445/.600/1.045, so clearly he hasn't and won't likely be as good a hitter as he appeared at that time. It seems likely that Brandon will wind up closer to my expectations than the inflated expectations he had created in San Jose.

But Brandon is almost sure to become a better career hitter than I expected.




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