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Post by islandboagie on Jun 25, 2014 10:55:38 GMT -5
Boly's not available to give one of his famous rants, so I'll cover for him this time. I don't know if mine will have the same effect, but it couldn't get any worse.
(Does his best Boly impression)
I've never been so disgusted in all my life.
Never.
Ever.
It appears as if they've given up annnnnnnnd...I can't take it anymore.
Pence looks like he's sitting 3-0 on every pitch and taking huge cuts with nobody on base! Does he even realize....can he even pull his head out of his fanny long enough to realize he bats second!? Get on base!
The same goes for half the team, the other half gets a pitch to hit and just throws their bat at the pitch sending out a weak grounder or routine fly ball.
I can't believe these guys are still in first place.
Disgusting...
Pathetic.
Of course, the main problem here is Lincecum. We should trade him but who would want a little league pitcher!?
We should just forfeit the rest of our games because it is very likely we will never win again.
Never.
Ever.
A disgusted and furious,
Boly
Boly
(Boagie)
Allen, I expect you to rip into Blanco asap. We need him to get hot.
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Post by islandboagie on Jun 25, 2014 19:18:54 GMT -5
Worked like a charm.
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Post by rxmeister on Jun 25, 2014 22:12:39 GMT -5
Boagie, what's happening around here? Lincecum pitches a no hitter, Adam Duvall is called up, and nobody has anything to say? Did they all go on vacation with Boly?
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Post by Rog on Jun 26, 2014 9:48:18 GMT -5
I'll bet when Boly comes back, he'll roll over laughing at Boagie's impression of him.
In fact, my statistical analysis indicates it is better than even money. Boly's K/BB ratio at the plate is still excellent, and he's such a power hitter we can excuse a few of his K's.
We need Boly back to explain how Tim Lincecum's mechanics somehow allowed him to throw a no-hitter. Seriously though, have we ever seen a pitcher as exasperating at Tim? And who remains as popular as he?
After the no-hitter, which he admittedly watched part of and then only on TV, writer Mark Purdy asks if a pitcher with three no-hitters -- should Tim somehow pull that off to join only Sandy Koufax, Nolan Ryan, Bob Feller and Roy Halladay (I think) -- coupled with two Cy Young Awards and two World Series championships, be far from the Hall of Fame? In a word, yes. In another few words, Tim needs to bounce back strongly from here if he is to have even a sniff. Wouldn't that be great though? Meanwhile, Madison Bumgarner remains a true stealth candidate.
One final question: If Tim were suddenly traded to the Padres and couldn't pitch against them, would he become the worst starter in the majors? In two words, not likely.
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Post by islandboagie on Jun 26, 2014 10:50:24 GMT -5
I was thinking the same thing last night, Rog. 2 Cy Youngs, 2 WS rings, 2 no hitters. If the Hall of Fame voters decide to ignore 300 wins as an unwritten prerequisite to join the HoF (which I think they should) then Timmy's accomplishments should at least warrant some consideration. Of course, as you mention, Tim would have to establish some sort of consistency moving forward. If his winning percentage is above .500, his ERA evens out below .400, and he remains as a durable starter, you'd have to give him strong consideration.
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Post by donk33 on Jun 26, 2014 13:54:47 GMT -5
I was thinking the same thing last night, Rog. 2 Cy Youngs, 2 WS rings, 2 no hitters. If the Hall of Fame voters decide to ignore 300 wins as an unwritten prerequisite to join the HoF (which I think they should) then Timmy's accomplishments should at least warrant some consideration. Of course, as you mention, Tim would have to establish some sort of consistency moving forward. If his winning percentage is above .500, his ERA evens out below .400, and he remains as a durable starter, you'd have to give him strong consideration. dk..the so called experts were very upset over Don Sutton being voted into the HOF despite his 324 wins because he only had one 20 win season...and Pedro Martinez is still waiting for the HOF despite 3 Cy Youngs....and maybe Tim needs to complete a few more games.....and as long as we are lowering the standards for the HOF, shouldn't there be a corner in the HOF for Johnny Vander Meer.... |
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Post by Rog on Jun 26, 2014 22:55:23 GMT -5
Let's try to straighten this out a bit.
Pedro Martinez hasn't yet become eligible for the Hall of Fame. When he pitched, he was arguably the best pitcher ever. He didn't pitch as much as many of the other top pitchers.
Johnny Vander Meer was a very good pitcher on top of his back-to-back no-hitters. But he led the league in walks twice, won only 119 games, finished below .500, and had only a 107 ERA+.
Tim Lincecum will be additionally defined by the rest of his career. He needs to become a good starter for many more years in order to have a chance. Maybe yesterday was the first game in his turning the corner to reinvent himself in order to do that.
My opinion is between Boagie's and Don's.
In today's game, Tim's ability to complete games doesn't really have much to do with his overall effectiveness. On the other side, there are other pitchers with two no-hitters who aren't even close to the Hall.
Here is what I believe: If Tim were to double his career thus far, he wouldn't make the Hall unless he won at least one more Cy Young Award or came close multiple times. More World Series championships would help as well.
Tim's strikeout rate will almost certainly continue to decline. How his climbing walk rate reacts will have a significant impact, as will his rising hit and home run rate.
Double up Tim's career to date, and we've got a 190-150 record with a 3.52 ERA. For a pitcher in a good pitchers' park, that shouldn't be enough.
Tim's stock would rise if he reaches 200 wins. Making a few more All-Star teams would help. Just as it's becoming tough to make the All-Star roster of pitchers, the increased competition for the Hall of Fame augurs against Tim.
Here is what I might see as the combined requirements for Tim to make it.
IP -- 3000
ERA -- 3.75
W-L -- 200-150
Cy Youngs -- 2
All-Star teams -- 5
World Series championships -- 3
No-hitters -- 2
I think something like that could get Tim in via the Veterans Committee. His charisma and his combination of two each Cy Youngs, World Championships and no-hitters put him in a better place right now than his pure numbers would indicate. But as we all have been saying here for a long time, he's got a long way to go.
Right now the odds aren't in his favor. In fact, at this moment, they're highly against him. There was a similar time in Robin Roberts' career when the odds were against him, as well.
But Robin rebounded from 5 out of 6 bad seasons to wind up 286-245 with a 3.41 ERA and a 113 ERA+. He led the league in innings pitched five times, in starts six times, in complete games five times, in wins four times, and strike outs twice. He was a seven-time All-Star. On the negative side, he led the league in hits five times, in home runs allowed five times, in earned runs allowed three times, and in losses twice.
Tim is going to have a hard time equaling the career of Roberts, but at one time it didn't appear Robin would do it either. And because of the low standards of the Veterans Committee, Tim probably won't need to pitch as well as Roberts in order to make the Hall.
On the other hand, the increase in statistical analysis may force a positive change in the Veterans Committee's decisions.
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Post by donk33 on Jun 27, 2014 0:08:32 GMT -5
Let's try to straighten this out a bit. Pedro Martinez hasn't yet become eligible for the Hall of Fame. When he pitched, he was arguably the best pitcher ever. He didn't pitch as much as many of the other top pitchers. dk..sorry for the error, he pitched so little in his last 4 years that I thought his career ended long ago. Johnny Vander Meer was a very good pitcher on top of his back-to-back no-hitters. But he led the league in walks twice, won only 119 games, finished below .500, and had only a 107 ERA+. dk...as I said, if they lower the bar for the HOF, why not a spot for Johnny...he did something that no other pitcher has ever accomplished...the things Tim did have been done before.... Tim Lincecum will be additionally defined by the rest of his career. He needs to become a good starter for many more years in order to have a chance. Maybe yesterday was the first game in his turning the corner to reinvent himself in order to do that. My opinion is between Boagie's and Don's. In today's game, Tim's ability to complete games doesn't really have much to do with his overall effectiveness. On the other side, there are other pitchers with two no-hitters who aren't even close to the Hall. dk...you place no bearing on complete games, but I do....a pitcher who knows he can get away with only throwing 6 or 7 innings can be more effective than a guy who tries to go the distance...but you have no concept because you go only into stats and if you can round them up to 9 innings, that is your only concern...really, per your reasoning, the best guys for the HOF are successful relief pitchers who can go all out for one inning... Here is what I believe: If Tim were to double his career thus far, he wouldn't make the Hall unless he won at least one more Cy Young Award or came close multiple times. More World Series championships would help as well. Tim's strikeout rate will almost certainly continue to decline. How his climbing walk rate reacts will have a significant impact, as will his rising hit and home run rate. Double up Tim's career to date, and we've got a 190-150 record with a 3.52 ERA. For a pitcher in a good pitchers' park, that shouldn't be enough. Tim's stock would rise if he reaches 200 wins. Making a few more All-Star teams would help. Just as it's becoming tough to make the All-Star roster of pitchers, the increased competition for the Hall of Fame augurs against Tim. Here is what I might see as the combined requirements for Tim to make it. IP -- 3000 ERA -- 3.75 W-L -- 200-150 Cy Youngs -- 2 All-Star teams -- 5 World Series championships -- 3 No-hitters -- 2 I think something like that could get Tim in via the Veterans Committee. His charisma and his combination of two each Cy Youngs, World Championships and no-hitters put him in a better place right now than his pure numbers would indicate. But as we all have been saying here for a long time, he's got a long way to go. Right now the odds aren't in his favor. In fact, at this moment, they're highly against him. There was a similar time in Robin Roberts' career when the odds were against him, as well. But Robin rebounded from 5 out of 6 bad seasons to wind up 286-245 with a 3.41 ERA and a 113 ERA+. He led the league in innings pitched five times, in starts six times, in complete games five times, in wins four times, and strike outs twice. He was a seven-time All-Star. On the negative side, he led the league in hits five times, in home runs allowed five times, in earned runs allowed three times, and in losses twice. Tim is going to have a hard time equaling the career of Roberts, but at one time it didn't appear Robin would do it either. And because of the low standards of the Veterans Committee, Tim probably won't need to pitch as well as Roberts in order to make the Hall. On the other hand, the increase in statistical analysis may force a positive change in the Veterans Committee's decisions. dk..the one thing that stood out about Tim's no-no was the still pictures of Tim in all the media...it showed Tim well off the rubber and he still wasn't in his delivery....I wonder if anyone looks and realizes he has an illegal delivery?  |
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sfgdood
Long time member 
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Jun 27, 2014 1:16:10 GMT -5
2 No-hitters
2 CYs
2 WS rings
2 pitchers (EVER)...Koufax and Lincecum
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Post by Rog on Jun 27, 2014 2:35:30 GMT -5
Rog -- Johnny Vander Meer was a very good pitcher on top of his back-to-back no-hitters. But he led the league in walks twice, won only 119 games, finished below .500, and had only a 107 ERA+. dk...as I said, if they lower the bar for the HOF, why not a spot for Johnny...he did something that no other pitcher has ever accomplished. Rog -- The Hall is based much more on career achievements than on single game (or in Johnny's case, two spectacular back-to-back games). Heck, Jim Barr was a fine pitcher for the Giants and at one time held the major league record for most consecutive batters retired. I think it is harder to get into the Hall right now than it was previously. IMO it should indeed be harder. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2338/boly-rant#ixzz35p3y7LIK |
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Post by Rog on Jun 27, 2014 2:37:50 GMT -5
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Post by Rog on Jun 27, 2014 2:39:00 GMT -5
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Post by Rog on Jun 27, 2014 2:40:47 GMT -5
Great to have you back, Randy. And your points about Tim and Koufax being the only two to have the three "two's" is a very good one.
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Post by islandboagie on Jun 27, 2014 10:36:57 GMT -5
2 No-hitters
2 CYs
2 WS rings
2 pitchers (EVER)...Koufax and Lincecum
Boagie- It's ironic that Timmy's dad used Koufax's mechanics as a model for developing Tim's. With the evidence before us, it surprises me that there are still critics that refuse to believe there might be something to this.
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Post by donk33 on Jun 27, 2014 12:40:50 GMT -5
dk..pitchers pitch fewer innings because they are not able to go further because of tiring or because they get hit.....takes a whole lot more ability to pitch complete games...and occasionally mix in a relief game... I have a new theory on why they have so many blown out arms in today's baseball....the way they grip the ball...especially the breaking ball...I never had a coach who was a pitcher, but the only grips we knew were across the seams or with them...except for the occasional knuckle ball or palm ball....since I no longer throw a ball, I can't test this out, but the way they put stress on their fingers, it would be logical that it transmits stress down the whole arm... |
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Post by klaiggeb on Jun 27, 2014 13:38:36 GMT -5
Boly's not available to give one of his famous rants, so I'll cover for him this time. I don't know if mine will have the same effect, but it couldn't get any worse.
(Does his best Boly impression)
I've never been so disgusted in all my life.
Never.
Ever.
---boly says---
Ha! Boagie! Well done!
It's 1141 Friday morning and I literally have been home an hour.
I've been out of computer contact totally since Monday, up in the hills in Pennsylvania.
Don't know what in particuluar you were writing about, but you got the flavor perfectly!
I remember before I left I stated I felt that by th time I got home, we'd be in the toilet, and I see that we are.
Injuries out the wazoo, starting staff a mess.
Can it get much worse?
Sure it can.
Only saving grace is that somehow, thanks, I think, to Dodger incompetance, we're still in 1st place.
I guess that's something.
I've got to catch up.
boly
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Post by klaiggeb on Jun 27, 2014 13:40:48 GMT -5
Rog---We need Boly back to explain how Tim Lincecum's mechanics somehow allowed him to throw a no-hitter. Seriously though, have we ever seen a pitcher as exasperating at Tim? And who remains as popular as he?
---boly says---
Rog, I absolutely can.
Remember... think back what I said about Tim: "There'd STILL be those moments of brilliance, but they'd become more and more INfrequent as the days go by."
That's a paraphrase, but it's close.
This was one of those days, nothing more.
Bigger question is, what's wrong with Cain?
From what I read, this is the same crap we saw from him most of the 1st half last year.
boly
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Post by islandboagie on Jun 27, 2014 13:56:40 GMT -5
I disagree, Boly. Other than Bumgarner, Lincecum has been our best starter over the past 3 or 4 outings by each of our other starters. He's stepped up, now the pressure is on Cain to do the same.
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Post by islandboagie on Jun 27, 2014 20:49:23 GMT -5
By the way, the Giants are terrible. They likely won't win another game for the rest of the year.
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Post by klaiggeb on Jun 27, 2014 20:49:47 GMT -5
I disagree, Boly. Other than Bumgarner, Lincecum has been our best starter over the past 3 or 4 outings by each of our other starters. He's stepped up, now the pressure is on Cain to do the same.
---boly says---
I missed Tim's last 3 starts, Boagie, so I'll acquiese to what you've seen and I haven't.
Can you give me a brief summary of how he's done?
boly
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Post by rxmeister on Jun 28, 2014 7:16:18 GMT -5
I agree with Boagie's assessment of the team. Just awful. Belt homered and singled for San Jose after telling Bochy that he's ready to return. Maybe they should hurry with this.
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Post by Rog on Jun 28, 2014 22:06:09 GMT -5
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Post by Rog on Jun 28, 2014 22:10:59 GMT -5
Boagie- It's ironic that Timmy's dad used Koufax's mechanics as a model for developing Tim's. With the evidence before us, it surprises me that there are still critics that refuse to believe there might be something to this. Rog -- I think Boly would ask how Tim's mechanics are so different than Sandy's if this is true, but I can vouch firsthand it is true. Chris has tremendous respect for the pitchers of his youth, and he did indeed use Sandy as one of his models -- perhaps #1 of his models. Like his mechanics or not, I wish all of you guys could have been with me when Chris and I discussed Tim, the Giants and baseball for three or four hours back in late March of 2008. In fact, you know who I most wish could have been there? Boly, so he could have discussed his much more orthodox theories of mechanics with Chris. That would have added to the experience. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2338/boly-rant?page=1&scrollTo=21075#ixzz35zgMEoLi |
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Post by Rog on Jun 28, 2014 22:13:33 GMT -5
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Post by Rog on Jun 28, 2014 23:20:17 GMT -5
I feel really bad in that because of my own mistake and due to being out of town, I missed both Tim's starts prior to the no-hitter. I was able to get my fiancee's son to record the no-no after a good friend of mine from Washington called me to alert me to the no-hitter. I still need to do more analysis of that game, but I truly wish I could have seen the previous two games and formed an opinion based on them.
One thing I suspected when watching the game and had verified by MLB's Gameday is that the catching of Hector Sanchez (who certainly deserves some of the credit for the no-hitter) may have cost Tim a perfect game. Both we and Mike Krukow have mentioned how Hector's poor catching of pitches may cost Tim a few strikes when Hector basically takes the ball out of the zone.
Tim's final three pitches to Chase Headley in the 2nd inning weren't close, and Tim walked him even after a 1-2 count to allow his only base runner. The first pitch to Headley was actually in the strike zone and may have been called a ball because of its poor catching by Sanchez.
Mike Krukow was a bit premature when he said that Tim had command of all four pitches before Tim had even thrown a curve ball, but ultimately the comment came true. I haven't yet calculated how many of each pitch Tim threw, but I do remember a batter to whom Tim threw a curve, slider, change up and then a fastball (hopefully I've got the order right).
Tim entered the game having thrown only 47% fastballs and probably threw even more secondary pitches in the no-hitter. Tim was perhaps best known when he came up for his fastballs which reached as high as triple digits, but even then, his best two pitchers were his change up and curve. In 2008, he added the slider, which immediately became one of his top pitches.
Tim got away with a few pitches, the most notable of which was a T-ball fastball to Will Venable on the penultimate pitch of the game. Overall though, he did have nice command of each of his four offerings. Even though Tim struck out only six batters, the Padres didn't hit the ball particularly hard, and unlike Tim's first no-hitter, no tough defensive plays were required.
The improved defensive positioning aided Tim on at least two plays.
A question: Tim had two more hits than the entire Padres team. Does that at least tie a record for hits by a pitcher in a no-hitter? I'm guessing the record is three, and perhaps it is even four. But I'll bet there haven't been too many pitchers with two hits while pitching a no-hitter. Krukow may have been right when he said that it aided Tim through the two long Giants half-innings to be on base and not cool out.
Getting back to Krukow's implying Tim had good command of his curve ball prior to Tim's even throwing one: Tim's slider is sometimes so sharp it is hard to tell from his curve ball. The key to differentiating is to note the speed, and Mike may not always have that luxury.
A thought I had during the game on Tim's fastball: Even when he had the very hard heater, Tim didn't get as many swing-throughs on fastballs as one would have expected. Boly says that Tim's mechanics keep him from getting on top of the ball, although as Mike Krukow points out, he does have a lot of downward movement on all three of his secondary pitches. Mike attributes it to Tim's overhand delivery.
The thing that crossed my mind for the first time is that Tim's extremely long stride coupled with his lack of height means he's delivering his pitches from several inches lower than taller, shorter-striding pitchers. That could have something to do with batters being able to foul off some of his high fastballs, limiting his swing-throughs on the pitch.
I still wish Tim could get more first-pitch strikes. He's at a career low 53.2% this year. He seemed to do a nice job of coming back from behind in the no-hitter though. And as mentioned above, the one guy he walked came after being ahead 1-2. If that first pitch had correctly been called a strike, perhaps Headley would have struck out instead of walking.
One could argue that Tim pitched better than did Matt Cain in Matt's perfect game. One could also argue that Yusmeiro Petit pitched better in his near-perfect game than either of them.
Despite the two no-hitters, I would think Tim's 15-strikeout win over the Braves in the first game of the 2010 NLDS was the best game of his career.
Tim's career low swinging strike percentage of 9.6% may indicate he is learning to pitch to contact. It may also indicate that batters are better able to adjust off the slowest fastball of his career (89.8 mph). A career low 28.2% rate of swinging at pitches outside the strike zone might more indicate the latter.
Since I missed both the starts leading up to Tim's no-hitter, could you flesh out your opinion of how Tim pitched in those games and how it led you to believe he was improving, Boagie? And to Boagie, Boly and others -- do you think he can sustain the improvement? To what extent?
Tim used to be a below 3.00 ERA pitcher. The past two and a half seasons, he's been an over 4.00 pitcher (and once over 5.00). Where do we think he is right now? What do we think his ceiling is based on his attempts to pitch better to contact?
One clear improvement from Tim has been that after allowing 25 walks in his seven previous starts, Tim has allowed just 5 in his last four outings. Was that improved control part of your view of Tim's improved pitching, Boagie?
Tim has also allowed just 4 home runs in his last 12 games after allowing 6 in his first 4. He also has allowed no hits in two of his last six outings, although the first should be very highly discounted in that it came in just five innings. Still, Tim has allowed 22 hits in his last six games after allowing 65 in his first 10 games. He has also pitched 6.75 innings in his past four games after averaging just 5.39 in his first 12.
Tim's results have improved considerably of late, especially in his past four games. He has struck out just 19 batters in those four games after striking out 64 in his first 12. His strikeout rate per inning has fallen by over a third in those four games. Yet his 3.00 ERA in those last four games is nearly in line with his glory years.
Tim has really cut down on hitting against him. He has allowed just 37 hits in his past 56.0 innings after allowing 50 hits in his first 35.2 frames. He has allowed just 4 home runs in his last 70.2 frames after allowing 6 in his first 21 innings. He has allowed 5 walks in his last 27.0 innings after passing 31 in his first 64.2 innings.
To what do we attribute his recent success. More importantly, can he sustain it?
Perhaps Tim is just teasing us. Things haven't really changed. Or have they?
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Post by donk33 on Jun 29, 2014 1:47:32 GMT -5
dk...Rog, why do you stop being a nit picker?? This board is for peoples' opinions, not for a constant barrage of data...It is always apparent when guys are voicing their opinion...either agree or disagree, but asking for sources is childish... |
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Post by Rog on Jun 29, 2014 2:46:29 GMT -5
dk..pitchers pitch fewer innings because they are not able to go further because of tiring or because they get hit. Rog -- Would you mind sharing your source here? Thanks. dk...Rog, why do you stop being a nit picker?? This board is for peoples' opinions, not for a constant barrage of data...It is always apparent when guys are voicing their opinion...either agree or disagree, but asking for sources is childish... Rog -- I guess you're right. It was kind of a rhetorical question. It has been proven that pitchers pitch better in shorter spurts. That would seem to make it more prudent for managers to ask their starters to pitch harder, even if it means turning the game over to what are now rather good bullpens. Thus, one can make an argument that going deeply into games isn't nearly as important than it once was. Arguing that pitchers come out earlier because they tire more easily would seem to require some sort of rational if not proof. Especially since it can be proven that pitchers pitch better in short spurts. In order to successfully argue against a proven fact, doesn't one need to at least make an argument that goes beyond "I'm simply expressing my opinion?" Your opinion could be right. It simply doesn't seem to be well-supported IMO. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2338/boly-rant#ixzz360nD9LQw |
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Post by klaiggeb on Jun 29, 2014 12:19:32 GMT -5
Rog-=--Rog -- I think Boly would ask how Tim's mechanics are so different than Sandy's if this is true, but I can vouch firsthand it is true. Chris has tremendous respect for the pitchers of his youth, and he did indeed use Sandy as one of his models -- perhaps #1 of his models.
Like his mechanics or not, I wish all of you guys could have been with me when Chris and I discussed Tim, the Giants and baseball for three or four hours back in late March of 2008.
In fact, you know who I most wish could have been there? Boly, so he could have discussed his much more orthodox theories of mechanics with Chris. That would have added to the experience.
---boly says---
Which Koufax was Chris Lincecum modeling his son after? I ask because Koufax was MY model, along with Marichal. And Tim's mechanics aren't close to either.
Not even in the same zip code.
But let's begin with my analysis.
1-Koufax arm dropped straight down, and it did NOT whip behind his back as does Tim's
2-Koufax' stride was in sync with his body size and type and virtually EVERY delivery had him finishing over and on top of his front(landing) leg. This is something that because of his stride length Tim can no longer consistantly do.
3-Sandy's windup was compact when compared to Tim's.
4-Sandy's delivery was smooth and easy to the plate, Tim's is violent, and often looks out of control.
Put the two side-by-side and even a non baseball guy can see the difference.
Everyone has a different style, there is no one "right way."
But what I learned was this:
The more compact and simple the mechanics (hitting, pitching, golf), the simpler they are to repeat, the longer the career is likely to be, and the more success they are likely to bring.
boly
As to being there with Chirs... I would have paid money to attend.
I would have been as polite as possible, as diplomatic as possible, but I'm telling you right now, we would disagree on a ton of pitching issues.
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Post by donk33 on Jun 29, 2014 19:39:36 GMT -5
dk..pitchers pitch fewer innings because they are not able to go further because of tiring or because they get hit. Rog -- Would you mind sharing your source here? Thanks. dk...Rog, why do you stop being a nit picker?? This board is for peoples' opinions, not for a constant barrage of data...It is always apparent when guys are voicing their opinion...either agree or disagree, but asking for sources is childish... Rog -- I guess you're right. It was kind of a rhetorical question. It has been proven that pitchers pitch better in shorter spurts. That would seem to make it more prudent for managers to ask their starters to pitch harder, even if it means turning the game over to what are now rather good bullpens. Thus, one can make an argument that going deeply into games isn't nearly as important than it once was. Arguing that pitchers come out earlier because they tire more easily would seem to require some sort of rational if not proof. Especially since it can be proven that pitchers pitch better in short spurts. In order to successfully argue against a proven fact, doesn't one need to at least make an argument that goes beyond "I'm simply expressing my opinion?" Your opinion could be right. It simply doesn't seem to be well-supported IMO.dk...why do managers rush to relieve a guy after he throws 100 pitches??? Pitching in short spurts is for the guys in the pen who do not seem to be able to go more than one or two innings....I'm sure they would go further if they didn't tire too quickly...If you really want to prove anything, go to baseball-reference and see what happens to pitchers in the innings they pitch....I settle for my opinion and the fact that is why we have few complete games...few long relievers and many guys who average an inning or less per appearance. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2338/boly-rant#ixzz360nD9LQw |
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Post by Rog on Jun 30, 2014 0:42:25 GMT -5
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