Jon Heyman on the Giants

[allenreed]

I'd say it exists on ESPN more than the other sports networks. Yankees-Red Sox or Jets-Patriots sends these guys into a lather. Anything about the football Giants.

[sfgdood]

to put a hockey spin on it, it was reported just this last week that the Sharks' brilliant rookie Tomas Hertl was not even being considered for the Calder Trophy even though he leads all NHL rookies in goals and points. You dont get much more east coast biased than that.

[allenreed]

You'd have to wonder if any of them have even seen Hertl play. His key will be to have a good game whan he plays in NY, like Steph Cury did against the Knicks last year. That game put Steph on the map.

[Islandboagie]

Rog -- I have no idea what his sources are, Boagie. I just don't see the evidence he hates the Giants. Just because someone picks against the Giants doesn't make them a Giants hater.

Boagie- He didn't just pick against them, he mocked them and gave them zero respect for making it to the World Series. Perhaps you should read his article again.

Quite honestly, Rog, I'm a little surprised you support such a hot headed fool like Nightingale. You lambast anyone here who would merely suggest to boo a Dodgers player, but yet someone shitting on the Giants in the mainstream media is considered a respected journalist. Its almost as if in your world, once someone gets a degree in journalism they are completely shielded from ANY criticism.

I hate the Dodgers, but even I would give them respect for making it to the World Series. Just like I gave respect to the Tigers and Rangers when we faced them and won on both occasions.

[sharksrog]

Mark -- If you've ever read Nightengale on twitter you can tell he's a Cardinals fan, but that doesn't mean he's incapable of covering or talking about other teams. And it sure doesn't mean the Giants don't like him or won't speak to him because of his allegiances.

Rog -- I think one way to try to find if a statement is true or not is to ask oneself WHY? Why would Jon Heyman hate the Giants? Is he a Dodgers fan or do we know something in his background that indicates or would give him reason to hate the Giants?



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[sharksrog]

Randy -- to put a hockey spin on it, it was reported just this last week that the Sharks' brilliant rookie Tomas Hertl was not even being considered for the Calder Trophy even though he leads all NHL rookies in goals and points. You dont get much more east coast biased than that.

Rog -- So show us where that was said. I agree that not including Hertl in ROY discussions would be incorrect.

When I put Tomas Hertl Calder Trophy ROY into my browser, the first story that came up did favor Torey Krug of the Bruins, but also mentioned Hertl 2nd and Seth Jones 3rd. Defensemen usually take longer to develop (think of the development of Marc-Eduard Vlasic as an example, not that he wasn't good right out of the chute), yet in the Eastern Conference semi-finals last postseason, Krug became the first-ever defenseman to score four goals in his first five posteason games. He has thus far indicated this isn't a fluke, already scoring six goals and adding six assists while compiling a plus five.

I would love to see Hertl win the award, but I have to admit that's a strong case for Krug. Let's not forget too that Tomas has the advantage of playing with arguably the league's top passer in Joe Thornton.

I like that Hertl has stepped up his physicality and defense as the season has gone on, but his 12 goals as a forward aren't as impressive as six for a defenseman.

I don't know how Krug's defense is, and by name that is highly important for a defenseman, but he now has 7 goals and 8 assists for a plus 6. His 7 goals are tied for first among all defensemen, and his 15 points rank #11 (tied). The only flaw I see is his 17:33 average ice time.

Hertl's 12 goals are tied for 9th among forwards, and his 18 points are tied for 48th. He's a plus 8.

I can't tell you whether Hertl or Krug should be the leader in the Calder race. Based on goals and points though, it's clearly Krug.

What have we got here? A little West Coast bias?

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[sharksrog]

By the way, we're usually guilty of thinking our guys are better -- or worse -- than they truly are. If a guy is a good fielder like Brandon Crawford, for instance, we tend to think he's the best even though we haven't seen the others play enough to judge.

My personal sense is that Brandon is likely near the bottom of the first quartile. But I'm going primarily on the observations of others. I just don't see enough of the other guys to make a valid comparison.

[sharksrog]

Allen -- You'd have to wonder if any of them have even seen Hertl play.

Rog -- My (strong) guess would be yes, although I would think that most see primarily highlights. Let's put it this way, Allen. If a guy watches a minute of play by every player in every game, he would average about four hours a day, seven days a week. If he wanted to get it done in five days, he could do so in about six hours a day.

But, yeah, Hertl is a big enough name now that almost every serious national hockey writer (including those in Canada) would have seen him play.

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[sharksrog]

Boagie -- Quite honestly, Rog, I'm a little surprised you support such a hot headed fool like Nightingale.

Rog -- Two questions, Boagie? WHY would he hate the Giants, and why don't you spell his name right.

Boagie -- You lambast anyone here who would merely suggest to boo a Dodgers player, but yet someone shitting on the Giants in the mainstream media is considered a respected journalist.

Rog -- I didn't say Nightengale was a respected journalist (although I think he is). I asked your for evidence he hates the Giants. Instead, you call him a "hot headed fool."

Boagie -- Its almost as if in your world, once someone gets a degree in journalism they are completely shielded from ANY criticism.

Rog -- That's hardly the case. Heck, the writer I know the best is Josh Adande, and I have posted here that I don't particularly like his writing (although I think he is good on Around the Horn and do think he wrote a gem when his mom died).

Mike Lefkow has the right to vote for the Hall of Fame (as does Adande), and I consider "Lefky" to be a sourpuss.

Don't you think there is a difference between saying you don't like a writer and calling him a "hot headed fool" who "hates" the Giants?


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[sharksrog]

By the way, perhaps in part because of the title of this thread, on at least one occasion here I mentioned Jon Heyman when I meant Bob Nightengale.

[Islandboagie]

Rog- WHY would he hate the Giants

[Islandboagie]

Sorry, premature post.

But, to answer your question Rog, I don't know why he would hate the Giants, but to give a team zero respect when making it to the World Series i can only conclude there is a dislike there somewhere. I would give credit to the Dodgers and I fully admit I hate them.

[sharksrog]

But, to answer your question Rog, I don't know why he would hate the Giants, but to give a team zero respect when making it to the World Series i can only conclude there is a dislike there somewhere.

Rog -- Here are some quotes about the Giants from Heyman:

"... the Giants are what the Yankees want to be -- World Champions."

"San Francisco swept the Detroit Tigers with a 4-3 victory Sunday at Comerica Park, winning seven consecutive postseason games to become one of three NL teams to win two championships in a three-year span since World War II. They join the Cincinnati Reds' Big Red Machine of 1975-76 and the Los Angeles Dodgers of 1963-65 in baseball folklore."

"The Giants are no fluke. They don't use gimmicks. They just play hard."

"That's what kind of bothered me,'' Bochy told USA TODAY Sportys. "We kept hearing about that we were lucky. That we were getting the bounces. You don't get lucky winning 94 games.

"You don't get lucky by sweeping the Detroit Tigers.

"We've got great talent, determination and a lot of heart.''

"The Giants dominated the postseason after being down three games to one in the National League Championship Series to the St. Louis Cardinals. They outscored opponents in the last seven games 36-7. They went 56 consecutive innings without trailing, the second-longest streak in postseason history."

"The Giants' starting rotation gave up just four runs in the World Series, with three of them coming Sunday against Matt Cain. The Tigers hit just .159, and cleanup hitter Prince Fielder was shut down, batting .071."

"...this was no fluke. There was no luck involved."

"It might have been the New York dictum, but the Giants have perfected it."

"no one can deny the Giants have a whole lot of mojo going on."

"The Giants have gone only 24 months without a World Series title."


Bob Nightengale may not think as highly of the Giants as you or I do, but does the above indicate he hates them?


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[Islandboagie]

Explain to me where Heyman's quotes ended and Nightengale's began. I'm confused.

[sharksrog]

Sorry, Boagie. I keep getting the two surnames confused. All the quotes are Nightengale's. Let me add this. Not everything Nightengale wrote about the Giants was favorable. But I think he has said more than enough good things to indicate he doesn't hate the Giants.

[Islandboagie]

Half of your quotes are dissected from an article he wrote where his major point was that the Giants were going to get pummeled by the Tigers. To sum it up for you, he said the Giants shouldn't have made it past the Reds and the "cute little story" was over.

[sharksrog]

Boagie -- Half of your quotes are dissected from an article he wrote where his major point was that the Giants were going to get pummeled by the Tigers. To sum it up for you, he said the Giants shouldn't have made it past the Reds and the "cute little story" was over.

Rog -- I said Nightengale said other negative things about the Giants. I simply said that he also wrote enough positives to strongly indicate he doesn't hate the Giants.

Think what you wish, Boagie, but the evidence is very strong that you don't have much of a clue about Nightengale's or particularly Carlos Beltran's situations.

Particularly in the case of Beltran, the evidence against your point of view is extremely strong. Yet you persist with an opinion that has almost no factual basis.

With Nightengale, it's not that he hasn't said negatives about the Giants. He has. But he has also written enough positives to defuse your argument that he hates the Giants.

You really don't have a clue as to what he thinks. Neither do I. But clearly he has written enough positives to show he doesn't hate the Giants.

I try to look at the positives AND negatives about a situation, but you and Randy seem to have your mind made up about Nightengale and in Randy's case, all the writers not on the West Coast.

I am happy to see a diversity of opinions. That is how each of us learns. But I get really sick of people who look at the facts selectively, in accordance with their point of view. And then make sweeping comments that almost CAN'T be totally right.

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[Islandboagie]

I don't recall saying he hated the Giants. What I did say was that he badmouthed the Giants enough that I doubt he has any inside source with the organization for two reasons. 1, if he had an inside source and had followed the Giants more closely, he wouldn't have counted them out that easily. #2 not giving respect to them likely made him no friends within the organization. Now I may be wrong..him and Sabean might have drinks once a week, but you've given no evidence that he does have contacts. So, my questioning him being a reliable source is a legitimate question. A question you clearly have no answer to.

[rxmeister]

This thread has really become much ado about nothing. I mentioned that Nightengale said Arroyo wanted to pitch for the Giants, and in his (Nightengale's) opinion they're a " perfect fit." Nobody said anything about inside sources and a signing being imminent, just that Nightengale was of the opinion that the Giants wanted Arroyo and vice versa. I think Nightengale is allowed to give his opinion whether he has inside sources on the Giants or not or whether he likes the Giants or not.

[sharksrog]

Hey, Boagie, if I misquoted you about saying Nightengale hated the Giants, I'm sorry. Certainly the worst you said about him here is that he is a "hot-headed fool." I thought in the previous thread about him you said he hated the Giants. Again, if not, I apologize.

[allenreed]

Saw Heyman discussing deals on The Baseball Channel, and he had the Giants still in on Ellsbury and Choo. Hard to imagine, but intriguing none the less.

[rxmeister]

He's not the only one who thinks that, Allen, and with them saving money by signing Vogelsong, I can see them having interest too. The problem is obvious and it's named Scott Boras. He represents both of them and is not afraid to literally go to spring training before making a deal. Worst case scenario is that the Giants chase after these guys all the way to February and wind up with nothing. Of the two I much prefer Choo. Ellsbury used to be speed and power, and now he's lost the power. If you give him a long term deal, he'll lose the speed eventually too. I just love Choo's ability to get on base in front of our RBI guys, and he has more pop than Ellsbury these days.

[allenreed]

I guess. I know I've said this before, but Choo just doesn't impress me as much as his numbers say he should. I know I've also said I wouldn't let Boras in the building. But I'm not running things, so that doesn't matter much. Ellsbury, I'm even more queasy about. He's hurt too much.

[rxmeister]

That OBP of .423, Allen, which was second in the league to Joey Votto. How can you not love that in your lineup?

[allenreed]

I know, I know. But watching him play, I'm just not impressed.

[sharksrog]

Mark -- That OBP of .423, Allen, which was second in the league to Joey Votto. How can you not love that in your lineup?

Allen -- I know, I know. But watching him play, I'm just not impressed.

Rog -- Which might indicate you're not looking for the right things, or not properly evaluating their worth.

He isn't really a center fielder, but he moved there to help his team. In future seasons he will almost certainly be a corner outfielder, and his defense there is just fine.

Offensively, the guy accumulated 401 bases at the plate while making 415 outs. That's nearly a base per out. Buster Posey led the Giants in efficiency with 302 bases on 389 outs.

I guess you weren't impressed, but it strongly appears you should have been. Very few batters were as efficient as Choo. Posey was a pretty good hitter, but he didn't even come close to Choo.

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